Turb or super 535?? what do i need to do?

[rowanhol 0]

hey guys just curious as to what would be the best path to take for some more power..

just wanting to know whats the easiest and cheapest,turbo or supercharger??

if i was going to turbo what do I need to do in regards to mapping of the computer or whatever?? same for supercharger..

ive seen single turbo manifolds for around $600 US, wouldnt mind an alpina biturbo manifold though, where the hell do you get one? and would there be enough room being RHD?

and if I was going to supercharge what type of supercharger would i need?

bassicly i just need a run down of things that will need to be done for both options, Id rather get parts seperately and on the cheep than buying a complete kit..yes i'm a tight ass

not wanting to run massive amounts of boost, just want a reliable 300bhp..surely i'm not asking too much of the m30..or am i? hmm

[SpidersWeb 0]

I bought my 535 SE just for this purpose.

Was going to use the standard AFM and computer. On boost the only changes are more fuel is required and the ignition timing needs to be retarded. I was going to use an adjustable rising rate FPR, and either a turbolink or MSD boost retarder for the timing.

It wont exactly be a 'great' tune, but will make a lot more power than factory, and means I can keep my econometer and save a few thousand on an aftermarket ECU.

I was worried about where to put the turbo, but there is tonnes of room once you remove the factory airbox. There are companys overseas who make turbo kits, personally I dont like any of them, but they all use the FPR method, one company reprograms the DME, but I dont know where to get that done here in NZ?

300 should be easy on the M30. One of the '535i turbo kit' companies claims 475hp but I personally think thats a little 'heads in the clouds' on a standard engine.

[*sic 1]

get a honda

[SpidersWeb 0]

get a honda

[topcat 11]

agreed-buy a nissan. everythings do and relativly cheap

[SpidersWeb 0]

agreed-buy a nissan. everythings do and relativly cheap

boooorrrring

[Assault 0]

There is no real easy or cheap way to go on this and I dont recommend skimping out on anything at all. The best piece of advice I can give is the more you know, the easier and cheaper it can be to do.

I'm a turbo man and I would suggest turbo over supercharger but you should make your own decision based on research about what will suit your purpose/goal/budget.

Make your first purchase a book called "maximum boost" by Corky bell, it will teach you pretty much everything you need to know technically about turbocharging.

Things you may be looking at having to do to get it turbocharged are:

custom exhaust manifold

custom downpipe and exhaust piping

turbo of some sort (obviously)

custom intake piping and intercooler

Wastegate and plumbing

blow off valve (bypass valve) and plumbing

Turbo oil feed and oil drain (possibly another oil pump to feed the turbo)

bigger injectors

bigger fuel pump

Fuel pressure regulator

ECU change (including tuning) or remapping to accommidate increased need for fuel and adjust timing

Possibly a new/stronger head gasket and head studs

possibly new/stronger main bolts

That basically cover it I think, I dont think I missed anything out off the top of my head, there will be a bit more to it than just this but these are the major things.

[bmwsparkle 3]

turbo 535 on the cheap? Doubt it dude. For eng config run a low comp E28 block (8:1) and your head, your head apparently should drop the CR even more, and has bigger valves, your block should be around (9:1) I think, not 100% sure, just what Ive heard.

Personally, I would rather spend money on getting it to handle, set the brakes up a bit nicer, and for engine, maybe open the exhaust up a bit.

[topcat 11]

whats the budget?

new componets or used?

more power bigger brakes and beefer clutch is commenly over looked.so add that to the equation.

[rowanhol 0]

I guess im wanting to do it for around 2k, would source secondhand and cheap parts as i need them. I'm not wanting a huge increase in power so dont really think i'm going to need better brakes or a handling package.. car already has stiffer lower springs,which helps a litttle.

does anyone know specs on the standard injectors and fuel pump??

would the standad exhaust be free flowing enough?? guess if i turbo i'll have to get a 1 into 2 pipe to go from turbo to exhaust,would that work fine?

should i purchase a cast turbo manifold or get something made up locally?

how do you go about getting ecu remapped or replaced to suit forced induction?? eg where do i go to get it done or where can i buy from

cheers

[m_power 0]

Dont think you will be turboing your car for 2k. That can be invested well in brakes and shocks though.

[topcat 11]

2K is not going to get you far,but if you could source cheap parts and have friends in high places it can be done.

so far i have spent a lot of dollars.even on the cheap or as cheap as poss.

every thing i could do myself i did-engine rebuild,echaust manifold,fitting etc.

one thing i have done is buy everything new. up to 5300 so far.now for the ecu.

find your self a second job or sell off what you dont need.makes these projects much cheaper,

or get a loan-not recommended.(i just bought in a turbo from states and sold it on to a guy who has taken out a small morgage to 'improve' his rx3)

[rowanhol 0]

wow howd you manage to spend $5300?? i guess engine rebuild adds a bit to the cost..I'm kinda hoping that if i run lowish boost and keep the air cool it'l be ok with my old engine.

im thinkng

turbo manifold $1000ish imported

seconhand turbo $400ish

intercooler and piping $200

miscellaneous parts $500

many dozen beers $100

a lot of elbow grease priceless

you got any pics or more details of how you're setting it all up??

maybe supercharger is the way to go, they sound rad.. could be cheaper not having to get a custom manifold, just need to get brackets machined up(have connections for that) but i cant find a secondhand supercharger for a 3.5.. plenty of toyota sc14's but they only go up to 3.0 at the most. anyone know where to find one?

oh and will i need bigger injectors?? fuel pump?? wanting around 300hp

[Mike 1]

you'll need oil and water lines, oil feed line alone is in the region of $90, some gauges as well are pretty necessary. waste pipe to exhaust will need to be fabbed up. Bigger injectors definatly needed. How you going to control fuel and spark? Even silicon joiners for charge pipes add up pretty quickly. And then theres all the gaskets you'll need to replace after you pull half the motor apart to fit the thing. Also things like catch tanks are needed so you don't pressurise the crank case, I also had to make a new windscreen washer bottle, etc etc. Can you weld, or know someone who will help you out? Makes it much cheaper/easier.

I spent ages planning and researching my base setup and I came in pretty close to budget without too many surprises.

[Assault 0]

wow howd you manage to spend $5300?? i guess engine rebuild adds a bit to the cost..I'm kinda hoping that if i run lowish boost and keep the air cool it'l be ok with my old engine.

im thinkng

turbo manifold $1000ish imported

seconhand turbo $400ish

intercooler and piping $200

miscellaneous parts $500

many dozen beers $100

a lot of elbow grease priceless

you got any pics or more details of how you're setting it all up??

maybe supercharger is the way to go, they sound rad.. could be cheaper not having to get a custom manifold, just need to get brackets machined up(have connections for that) but i cant find a secondhand supercharger for a 3.5.. plenty of toyota sc14's but they only go up to 3.0 at the most. anyone know where to find one?

A super charger might be a cheaper way to go, but like I said before, you need to research the hell out of it.

I highly doubt you will be able to do your project for $2k, or even close to it, not properley and safely.

In addition to the bits you quoted above you will need:

custom exhaust fabrication to mate it up to the turbo, somewhere around $200 for that

Oil feed and drain lines as well as fabrication/alteration/fittings to get them to and from the engine, probably at least another $200 for that.

I doubt you will get your intercooler and piping all done for $200 unless you get a free intercooler, I would expect more like $500 for that.

When you FI a non-FI engine (turbo or supercharged), you can pretty much garauntee that you'll need to upgrade you injectors. Upgrading injectors means your ecu will also need to be altered or replaced to handle the injector change and supply fuel appropriately for the lower air/fuel ratio's (i.e. more fuel). IF YOU DO NOT DO THIS PROPERLEY SAY GOOD BYE TO YOUR ENGINE. Incorrect air/fuel ratio's can lead to detonation and engine damage or destruction.

I would suggest that you investigate what others have used as ECU's when FI'ing these engines. You may be able to get away with a piggy back ecu, which will greatly bring your costs down.

[SpidersWeb 0]

It can be done with an adjustable rising rate fuel pressure reg, and something to retard the ignition. CarTech make a model that has multiple adjustments, to prevent lean outs, think they call it something silly like the 'FMU'.

Its not the proper way, its not the best way, it'll run rich at times, but it'll still make good power and keep economy etc off-boost. Obviously you'll want this tuned on a dyno, a big kms engine wont take many pings before to pongs.

Still even using the super cheap method, you're talking roughly $1000 for even a cheap turbo that is decent, $750ish for a custom manifold done properly, and decent wastegate can ask for $ as well.......

Supercharging will keep the N/A feel but will reduce economy (as it's always running), and cost more for the equipment itself.

There are 535i turbo kits in the US that run 6-7psi with and without coolers, and most either have an adj. RRFPR or modify the DME slightly. You dont need a mass array of computers making sure every little thing is perfect. You just need more fuel, and ignition retard.

For 2K you could consider a 288 cam (Kelford could probably hook you up), port + polish etc, maybe import a chip and try it out, wont be 300hp but maybe 250-260? Apparently advancing the timing using a 'chip' has a rather big effect on the old M30.

Edited May 29, 2007 by SpidersWeb

[Mike 1]

It can be done with an adjustable rising rate fuel pressure reg, and something to retard the ignition. CarTech make a model that has multiple adjustments, to prevent lean outs, think they call it something silly like the 'FMU'.

I looked into all this and by the time you have the FMU and a BTM your most of the way to a Link ECU (Less tuning costs of course)

Also, it pretty hard to resist turning up the boost, I'm in the process of upgrades for more grunt, its bloody addictive.

Edited May 29, 2007 by Mike

[topcat 11]

its not difficult to for the overal cost to spiral.

i imported 42lb injectors = $400

wastegate =375

turbo =1300

there's 2G already.budgeted of 7 and will be with in that number at this stage, if NOTHING goes wrong.

touch wood.

nearly finished lay out and install of intake/intercool setup.soon the headace of grafting a e34 loom into the e28 format. sum say why? its a whole lot tidyr.will post for all you nosy folks out there

another way to keep prices down in thintake department is using exchaust bends.

Or ask me for a price when you know what you need in the silican range. All sizes,shapes,reducers etc that can be imagined.

Colours available-blue,red,black.

i import from states.

super cheap when compared

with the likes of repco etc

[Boost Junky 1]

Believe me in the long run you will end up spending more than 2k. I thought I could get away with doing a cheapy on my lil old Integra and ended up spending atleast 10k and that was not upto scratch.

Firstly bought a cheap kit off trademe which consisted of a manifold, downpipe, t3/t04e turbo, replica 38mm wastegate, gaskets and bolts etc that was $1400

Then you add on the 3" exhaust which cost about $120 to make with the help of Dad. Interooler cost $500 and piping was about $250 all allloy 2" with free welding still not cheap. Oil feed to turbo was $90 from hydrolink.

Oil drain prob cost about $40, fittings atleast $100 spent, chipped my own ecu which saved alot but wasnt very reliable (only a base map) hose clamps about $80 spent. Walbro fuel pump cost $200 second hand

VR4 injectors providing 450cc were $150 second hand. Cert cost $400 and then of course it failed and had to spend money rebuilding brakes which cost about $560. The on top of that the clutch pretty much s**t itself once the car was up and running so throw away another $750 and then off course the diff s**t itself so ended up buying a LSD box for $1500. So i spent atleast $6000 but no doubt there was much more to add to that.

Now that is a cheap build and i found that i had to replace some of the things i originally used and ended up spending more in the long run. Doing it cheap will in the long run cost you more trust me. I know its a honda but im sure the same applies when turboing any car. Forced Imduction takes the stresses and loadson your motor, driveline etc to a new level and nothing should be overlooked or done half ass as i have learnt.

Im looking at dropping an M50 into my E30 and running a descent GT35/40 top mount with a descent power output and i do not expect it to be cheap one bit

In my opinion if you are going to go towards forced induction spend the money and do it properly or dont bother at all...

Luke