Allanw 1051 Report post Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) I had read on the interwebnet that the Vanos seals on the M54 are practically guaranteed to be poked if they haven't been replaced with the correct type (Beisan Vanos Seal Kits). This is where I got my seal kit from. I thought because our car has only 117K on it, thay ours wouldn't be too bad. Wrong. We had issues with the engine (M54B25) nearly stalling when riding the clutch to reverse, or trying to manouvre in carparks etc. It also would bunny hop on our drive if you touched the gas pedal at low speed when cold - you either had to go fast or let it idle. The cold idle hunted just a touch, and there was a slight hesitation when tapping the throttle. I'm not sure how different the symptoms would appear on an auto. The Vanos works by using oil pressure to alter the cam timing. The M54 has Vanos on both cams, and it's infintely variable (between two points).The cams are connected to the cam sprockets by a piston with a set of helical gears and a spline. The piston in the Vanos pushes on the cam piston which alters the position of the sprocket on the camshaft through a range of about 40 crankshaft degrees for the intake, and 25 degrees for the exhaust. The engine measures the cam angle and adjusts a pulse width modulation signal to the Vanos solenoids to push the Vanos pistons in or out. The Vanos pistons have two grooves, which have an O ring installed, covered by a teflon sealing ring. The O ring BMW uses is not suitable for the environment it's in - They get a flat spot on them, and go hard. Very hard! I removed mine this morning, expecting them to be not too bad considereing the car has only 117kms on it. I was quite surprised by how rooted they were! The first clue as to how poked they were, was that the intake piston moved of it own accord when I tilted the Vanos unit (The exhaust piston is spring loaded). Once I removed the covers that hold the pistons in, the pistons fell out without any force! Totally poked! With the covers off, I could move the pistons laterally and SEE the movement, as well as hear them tapping each side. When the old seals and O rings were removed, the O ring (behind the teflon seal) was so flat, it was about half as thick as it was wide - it would have started off round! They were also hard enough that I could fold them over and break the O ring rubber, and they no longer stretch. The outer teflon seal seems to show no signs of wear etc - just the O ring behind no longer provided the pressure and support required to keep a good seal. The same pistons with the new seals installed were actually VERY difficult to move by pushing them, once the new seals were on and resized in the bores. I spent about 4 hours doing it, but had to borrow a couple of tools during the procedure. The whole thing is quite easy, following the instructions from the Beisan website (I think he is a bit OCD too!). If you have an M54 (or probably anything with Vanos!) you probably need to do the seals. On other forums, people speak of Vanos seal failures at anything from about 30,000 kms up to whatever! After doing them, I've only driven about 10 kms. I'll take it for more driving over the weekend. Already, it's clearly smoother at idle, the bogging is almost disappeared and the hesitation when tapping the throttle is gone. I replaced nothing else during the procedure, so can't put it down to anything else. The paperwork with the seals suggests 300kms+ are required for the seals to bed in. I took a few pictures while doing it, but the Beisan website has super detailed procedures with all the pictures you need! Edited April 6, 2012 by Allanw 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiddy 76 Report post Posted April 6, 2012 Well done! Great post, happy motoring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NZ BMW 368 Report post Posted April 6, 2012 Obviously some of your symptoms are unique to cars with a manual gearbox. But what do you mean with regards to the poor idle. Are you talking unstable rpms or what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
my_e36 43 Report post Posted April 6, 2012 You mentioned borrowing some tools, are they special tools? Did you change the valve cover gaskets and spark plugs while you are at it? Mine's leaking slightly, so I might as well change everything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KwS 2373 Report post Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) Going to do mine soon as ive got the same hopping symptom when cold (mines auto), so its either wait for it to warm up for a couple of minutes (with a really lumpy idle) or attempt to roll along without throttle (easy, but slow). All symptoms go away after around 2 mins of running and then its sweet. I'd be interested to hear if it clears all those symptoms up and if you see any noticeable power and economy difference. And as per above yes they do recommend doing the valve cover and spark plug seals whilst there as its all got to come off (and if the seals are old they will be useless when refitted) Edited April 6, 2012 by KwS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiddy 76 Report post Posted April 6, 2012 open up performance forum and search -Beisan duel vanos. Some info re my gains in here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1051 Report post Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) Obviously some of your symptoms are unique to cars with a manual gearbox. But what do you mean with regards to the poor idle. Are you talking unstable rpms or what? Mine was just slightly unstable, mostly when cold. It only hunted up and down by probably 50 rpm. If you eased the clutch out, then pressed it in, the idle would hunt for 5 or so seconds. It was also super easy to stall - reversing out of our garage it would shudder and almost stall initially. You'd have to rev it up a bit, or slip the clutch a LOT. It's very easy to reverse out now, without throttle. You mentioned borrowing some tools, are they special tools? Did you change the valve cover gaskets and spark plugs while you are at it? Mine's leaking slightly, so I might as well change everything. No special tools (they are listed in great detail on the Beisan Site I mentioned earlier - after starting, I realised I didn't have the right torx bit, and a small torque wrench that worked backwards for the two torx bolts in the mechanism. No, I wish I'd got plugs to do them, but it was a bit of a last minute decision to do it this weekend! My valve cover gasket seemed very fresh anyway, certainly no leaks or weeping. You may as well do them all - especially if it's leaking! Going to do mine soon as ive got the same hopping symptom when cold (mines auto), so its either wait for it to warm up for a couple of minutes (with a really lumpy idle) or attempt to roll along without throttle (easy, but slow). All symptoms go away after around 2 mins of running and then its sweet. I'd be interested to hear if it clears all those symptoms up and if you see any noticeable power and economy difference. I say: Do them! I thought I posted this bit last night, but it must have not worked (I have some weird network problem!) I've just been for another drive of 1.5 hours to get my sick little boy to sleep! - I'm home alone, the Mrs is over in the UK! I drove out along the coast road, turned inland over some hilly country with LOTS of corners and ups and downs, then along a big long straight, through suburban fringe area and back through the country to home. Only done a total of about 65 kms so far still. I've noticed a few things: The torque is HUGELY increased from 1500 up to 3000, it also seems to go a bit better higher up than that too, but I could be dreaming. I used to feel a sudden drop in power as I lifted my foot up for corners when going up a nearby hill, almost like the throttle closed, when I only closed it half way. It doesn't do it now - it's VERY smooth. It seems to hold the revs more between gear changes, where the revs used to drop a bit sudden, they drop less quickly, making gear changes much smoother. There are no sudden increases in torque or power anymore. The low end has improved so much, it feels quite linear from 1500. OBC is showing an economy improvement, but it's not a long enough distance to compare. I put all the fillups in Fuelly, so I'll see if there's any distinct change in the economy (just filled it up after the work was done). The Mrs mostly drives it, so the economy won't improve - she'll just go faster! For the small cost of it, I'd very much recommend it for the double vanos 6 cylinders for sure! Even without any signs now, they may still be somewhat poked. The slow deterioration may mask the fact that they are worn for some time. Edited April 17, 2012 by pando Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KwS 2373 Report post Posted April 7, 2012 well, considering my E39 has done 250,000ks.... be interesting to see how much of an improvement i get. I take it you have to remove the fan and shroud? I think thats the only bit really putting me off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mador 0 Report post Posted April 7, 2012 Dont be put off by the fan, just remember its Left hand thread Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1051 Report post Posted April 7, 2012 well, considering my E39 has done 250,000ks.... be interesting to see how much of an improvement i get. I take it you have to remove the fan and shroud? I think thats the only bit really putting me off. You'd assume yours would be worse than mine with double the kms, though it probably depends on the type of driving and oil type etc a bit too. The double Vanos engine seem to suffer the most - I suppose because of the infinite variability factor. It's not too tricky! The fan is the hardest part - that was another tool I had to borrow - Dad has a bunch of giant spanners, so had to wait for him to bring it over! Dont be put off by the fan, just remember its Left hand thread That's very handy to remember! a couple of good blows with the hammer will set it free... or smash your expansion bottle or shroud if you miss . Check the bottom of the radiator too - they're known to expand downwards sometimes, getting ready to pop Also, If you are planning on doing a thermostat* or water pump, do them at the same time. I have the water pump, but didn't want to do it this time as I have a plan for the thermostat, but it's all OK at the moment. (*check for codes regularly on the M54, as the thermostat doesn't put on the fault light! It then runs very hot, but the gauge doesn't show it either!) I just drove it from cold again, and I'm still impressed! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RustyItalian 11 Report post Posted April 7, 2012 I have two of the special bolts that hold the pistons to the cams if anyone needs them. Unfortunately the new seal kit didn't help mine at all. It's disappointing that an otherwise good engine can be turned into a piece of crap by BMW's poor selection of o-ring material. The number of people complaining about poor running on things things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NZ BMW 368 Report post Posted April 7, 2012 You'd assume yours would be worse than mine with double the kms, though it probably depends on the type of driving and oil type etc a bit too. The double Vanos engine seem to suffer the most - I suppose because of the infinite variability factor. It's not too tricky! The fan is the hardest part - that was another tool I had to borrow - Dad has a bunch of giant spanners, so had to wait for him to bring it over! That's very handy to remember! a couple of good blows with the hammer will set it free... or smash your expansion bottle or shroud if you miss . Check the bottom of the radiator too - they're known to expand downwards sometimes, getting ready to pop Also, If you are planning on doing a thermostat* or water pump, do them at the same time. I have the water pump, but didn't want to do it this time as I have a plan for the thermostat, but it's all OK at the moment. (*check for codes regularly on the M54, as the thermostat doesn't put on the fault light! It then runs very hot, but the gauge doesn't show it either!) I just drove it from cold again, and I'm still impressed! It's great to see this thread written from a New Zealand perspective. Often on the US-centric forums our cars maintenance patterns are different due to the types of driving we do. When I was in the US last time I was talking to a guy who had driven his car to 120,000 miles plus and had not replaced his pads and rotors, mainly because all his driving was on flat interstates and his brakes were not used. I actually wish I had seen this thread as I've recently had the cooling system replaced on my car, this would have been easier to do whilst that was all out of the engine bay. But interestingly at 125,000km's my car is showing no signs of failure at all. BTW - I'm up in Whangarei area for Easter, I'll have to give you a friendly wave if I see you on the road! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiddy 76 Report post Posted April 7, 2012 I read the M54 3.0 engine had modified vanos operation to mask the problem during warm up. The recall of 10s of thousands of engines for warranty repair would have killed BMW. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1051 Report post Posted April 8, 2012 I have two of the special bolts that hold the pistons to the cams if anyone needs them. Unfortunately the new seal kit didn't help mine at all. It's disappointing that an otherwise good engine can be turned into a piece of crap by BMW's poor selection of o-ring material. The number of people complaining about poor running on things things. The bolts are worth getting (few bucks each I think???) I put new ones in because the thought of snapping them didn't appeal AT ALL! Shame it had no effect on yours. At least you know they'll stay good now! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1051 Report post Posted April 8, 2012 It's great to see this thread written from a New Zealand perspective. Often on the US-centric forums our cars maintenance patterns are different due to the types of driving we do.... BTW - I'm up in Whangarei area for Easter, I'll have to give you a friendly wave if I see you on the road! Yeah, I always wonder if it's a real problem in all markets when it comes to stuff like this - Like nikasil engines having no issues in NZ because of our fuel always having had sulphur removed (for fertiliser!). Yeah wave if you see me - I haven't actually been out much though I'll be the one driving everywhere at 2000 to 3000 rpm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1051 Report post Posted April 8, 2012 I read the M54 3.0 engine had modified vanos operation to mask the problem during warm up. The recall of 10s of thousands of engines for warranty repair would have killed BMW. it sure would have killed them! The design, using an o ring it a little bit cheap for a BMW anyway - I'd have thought a spring or square section rubber ring. I think the cold idle problems are caused by the car trying to control the vanos with lower (idle) oil pressure, while trying to heat the cats up fast (apparently it uses more overlap to pump some fuel into the exhaust of heat them faster). It's funny the problems that emissions gear causes too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KwS 2373 Report post Posted April 8, 2012 I hate emissions gear with a vengeance, always a PITA. My old Honda had EGR issues, and my E39 has some stupid air pump that sounds like a jet taking off when i fire her up cold. I think next pay ill jump on the vanos seal wagon. Did you just order them through Beisan? Sting you much for postage? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1051 Report post Posted April 8, 2012 I think next pay ill jump on the vanos seal wagon. Did you just order them through Beisan? Sting you much for postage? US$17 - totalled a bit under NZ$100, plus I got the vanos gasket and left hand thread bolts from Milland - not sure what they were, maybe 20 or 30???Not too bad anyway. Cheaper than a tank of gas! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
my_e36 43 Report post Posted April 9, 2012 Group buy anyone? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rusteee 52 Report post Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Group buy anyone? Bugger, I just ordered the extra nylon vice grips (didn't do it on the first order) paying an extra 17USD for a 15USD product about 10 mins ago wouldn't have minded getting a couple more kits, I know my E36 needs doing. Where did you get the bolts from? Edited April 9, 2012 by rusteee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thorburn 120 Report post Posted April 9, 2012 I should get a set. So yes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
m325i 704 Report post Posted April 9, 2012 Any mechanics in AK keep this stuff in stock? (I'm unclear as to what parts I would need ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1051 Report post Posted April 10, 2012 Where did you get the bolts from? I got all the other bits from Milland.co.nz Beisan only does the seal kits. (and rattle kits, but I didn't need one) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rusteee 52 Report post Posted April 10, 2012 I got all the other bits from Milland.co.nz Beisan only does the seal kits. (and rattle kits, but I didn't need one) What other bits did you need other than the kit and the tools? I want to make sure I have everything before the kit arrives Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiddy 76 Report post Posted April 10, 2012 Because rocker cover is removed, rocker gasket, vanos unit unit cover gasket. If plugs etc need doing, now is the time. Beisan website has all info. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
