m50 manifold on 328i

[jom 96]

Ron, I think I've explained several time why the auto is different. You obviously only read what you want to read. The proof is in the lap time - you can't have read that either. And I didn't sidestep, I just gave up. I have better things to do, like polishing wheelnuts.

[Allanw 1051]

Ahmedsinc:

The M54 has a variable length manifold, to counter the phenomenon Ron is talking about, so I assume there is no point in using the M54 manifold, unless you are going to use the variable part (DISA Valve).

At low RPM, the intake charge has to follow a long, single path to the cylinder - this keeps the air velocity up, and gets more of it into the cylinder (it's also tuned length, so the pressure wave created by a closing valve helps fill the next cylinder). At higher RPM (amongst other factors) the ECU opens the direct (short, dual) path and allows more flow, with less restriction, using all available paths to cylinders.

It really does have a massive effect (along with the other M54 torque increasing tech). It wouldn't surprise me if my M54B25 would "out torque" an M52B28.

[No name user 379]

Or......strap a turbo on it and the manifold doesn't matter !

[Ahmedsinc 414]

Ahmedsinc:

The M54 has a variable length manifold, to counter the phenomenon Ron is talking about, so I assume there is no point in using the M54 manifold, unless you are going to use the variable part (DISA Valve).

At low RPM, the intake charge has to follow a long, single path to the cylinder - this keeps the air velocity up, and gets more of it into the cylinder (it's also tuned length, so the pressure wave created by a closing valve helps fill the next cylinder). At higher RPM (amongst other factors) the ECU opens the direct (short, dual) path and allows more flow, with less restriction, using all available paths to cylinders.

It really does have a massive effect (along with the other M54 torque increasing tech). It wouldn't surprise me if my M54B25 would "out torque" an M52B28.

Well I'll be buggered. I shouldn't be surprised that some sunlight deprived german came up with an idea like that, but I am still impressed!

Or......strap a turbo on it and the manifold doesn't matter !

Could be looking at doing that in the medium term, will be coming straight to you if it happens

[No name user 379]

Well I'll be buggered. I shouldn't be surprised that some sunlight deprived german came up with an idea like that, but I am still impressed!

Could be looking at doing that in the medium term, will be coming straight to you if it happens

if can be of help sing out

i have a few same things left for my cert then ill be stalking a street near you soon

as for the manifold discussion to be honest a well tuned car gives great results too and many couldnt feel a 5 hp gain from a manifold change, the best gains ive found is with a cam change or even changing the stock cam centre lines work pretty dam good but hey whatever works i guess.

[Ahmedsinc 414]

if can be of help sing out

i have a few same things left for my cert then ill be stalking a street near you soon

as for the manifold discussion to be honest a well tuned car gives great results too and many couldnt feel a 5 hp gain from a manifold change, the best gains ive found is with a cam change or even changing the stock cam centre lines work pretty dam good but hey whatever works i guess.

What I'm hoping for is guidance on whether to run with the M50 intake ( given I'll be changing the exhaust cam on the B30 for the B25NV intake item) and having the whole install dyno tuned to suit the increased fuel requirements over the standard M50B25NV factory tune; or if I'm better off sticking with the M54B30 intake.

My gut feeling tells me that the tuner will take into account the intake characteristics and make adjustments accordingly to provide best performance balanced against a linear as possible power and torque curve, therefore making manifold choices mostly a theoretical exercise. Granted, if I were merely swapping the intake and expecting an output increase without enlisting a pro to retune the ECU to suit it would be an expensive waste of time. This is not a backyard butcher shop project though. I have sighted proof that the project yields 240 rwhp & 300ft/lb torque. Not earth shattering numbers, but more than enough for a DD that might see a trackday once if it's lucky.

Should probably pay my advisor another visit and mull it over with him too

[No name user 379]

When i made my M50 intake manifold i spent some time studying the stock one which wasn't that bad i made former's and redesigned the runners and built trumpets into them and had a Laser cut flange made then created the manifold from sheet steel cheap and easy to do.

The M50 ports need some work on the high radius but are generally pretty good but the stock cams are the killer at 225 deg advertised duration and so performance killer im lucky enough to have a mate in Finland ex BMW DTM mechanic so running N/A i got some 100% bmw 240@.050'' in and 228@.050 ex cams, you have no idea what they do for the M50 they pull from 2000rpm and wont give up at 8800 now combine that with the intake youll be very happy camper.

You shouldnt run the motor with Hyd lifters past 8500 with reprofile on the cam to Mech itll run you to 9500, always wanted to build a 10k rpm M50B20 for the open 2ltr class pretty sure i could pull 270hp out of one,but thats all here say

[MoJoJoe 46]

When i made my M50 intake manifold i spent some time studying the stock one which wasn't that bad i made former's and redesigned the runners and built trumpets into them and had a Laser cut flange made then created the manifold from sheet steel cheap and easy to do.

The M50 ports need some work on the high radius but are generally pretty good but the stock cams are the killer at 225 deg advertised duration and so performance killer im lucky enough to have a mate in Finland ex BMW DTM mechanic so running N/A i got some 100% bmw 240@.050'' in and 228@.050 ex cams, you have no idea what they do for the M50 they pull from 2000rpm and wont give up at 8800 now combine that with the intake youll be very happy camper.

You shouldnt run the motor with Hyd lifters past 8500 with reprofile on the cam to Mech itll run you to 9500, always wanted to build a 10k rpm M50B20 for the open 2ltr class pretty sure i could pull 270hp out of one,but thats all here say

I had some M3 (M52B30) american motor cams, I cant do timing or ever did anything like this and heard they also need a tune so was thinking of selling them off, haven't found anybody yet (was asking $600, pickup @ auckland, but the guy I thought wanted them, our deal fell short). I am doing the M50 manifold swap, I am convinced, however now wondering if I should try and do the cams swap myself? I dont have any special tools to lock anything and swap it out, so wanted to rather sell it off.

[Palazzo 427]

Ahmedsinc:

The M54 has a variable length manifold, to counter the phenomenon Ron is talking about, so I assume there is no point in using the M54 manifold, unless you are going to use the variable part (DISA Valve).

At low RPM, the intake charge has to follow a long, single path to the cylinder - this keeps the air velocity up, and gets more of it into the cylinder (it's also tuned length, so the pressure wave created by a closing valve helps fill the next cylinder). At higher RPM (amongst other factors) the ECU opens the direct (short, dual) path and allows more flow, with less restriction, using all available paths to cylinders.

It really does have a massive effect (along with the other M54 torque increasing tech). It wouldn't surprise me if my M54B25 would "out torque" an M52B28.

Sorry,you're down 35lb/ft.

[No name user 379]

I had some M3 (M52B30) american motor cams, I cant do timing or ever did anything like this and heard they also need a tune so was thinking of selling them off, haven't found anybody yet (was asking $600, pickup @ auckland, but the guy I thought wanted them, our deal fell short). I am doing the M50 manifold swap, I am convinced, however now wondering if I should try and do the cams swap myself? I dont have any special tools to lock anything and swap it out, so wanted to rather sell it off.

its worth doing go onto Comp Cams web page it shows you how to do the centreline method to dial in cams if your not sure sing out, dialing in cams for n/a is different to turbo

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

always wanted to build a 10k rpm M50B20 for the open 2ltr class pretty sure i could pull 270hp out of one,but thats all here say

You sound mad. I like you

[thorburn 120]

I've got some cam tools if you need them

[MoJoJoe 46]

P.S. Mojoejoe, my offer for your cams is still on the table

they are in mt. roskill, auckland now.

$400 is way too low. I am asking $600. just make me an offer near what I am asking and go pick them up today,

parts that you cant use is expensive, So I need to get rid of them and get back some of my money.

besides you would pay more then twice that for shrik cams + postage + customs fees.

otherwise I will see if anybody is around that could help me install them, its the timing etc that bothers me. Maybe allan can help since hes done his Vanos. dont have many whangarei bmw guys here else I would had installed them myself with a helping hand since I got zero experience with installing cams.

Edited April 25, 2014 by MoJoJoe

[Allanw 1051]

Sorry,you're down 35lb/ft.

Thats only the peak. Not the curve.

[MoJoJoe 46]

I am having the friend drop the cams back off next week, I had some interest from another member here, I decided to give them a try and see if me and another member / neighbor here could install them ourselves and time them, I guess its not that hard and the M50 and M52 should use similar / same toold to lock/timing? I plan on selling my car in 2 years max, Leaving the country by then. so will probably not get a tune if not needed otherwise if the price if right I will ring up gavin to do it and then and call it a day.

@Ron & Jo, how much do you gain from adding m3 cams? I have understood that US figures of dynos are inflated. I guess you get back some of the torque loss from the m50 manifold as well? I hope to be close to 190-200rwhp after a tune. too optimistic?

[MoJoJoe 46]

So i lose power adding m3 cams(unless I get a tune?)

[No name user 379]

I am having the friend drop the cams back off next week, I had some interest from another member here, I decided to give them a try and see if me and another member / neighbor here could install them ourselves and time them, I guess its not that hard and the M50 and M52 should use similar / same toold to lock/timing? I plan on selling my car in 2 years max, Leaving the country by then. so will probably not get a tune if not needed otherwise if the price if right I will ring up gavin to do it and then and call it a day.

@Ron & Jo, how much do you gain from adding m3 cams? I have understood that US figures of dynos are inflated. I guess you get back some of the torque loss from the m50 manifold as well? I hope to be close to 190-200rwhp after a tune. too optimistic?

you may have to machine the cam gears to get enough adjustment to get the centerlines correct if you need it done sing out

[MoJoJoe 46]

these swap right in or I have been told, no modifications required, I just want to know do I see any gains or actual loses. I drive a auto. a few people here said if I swap the m3 cams I will probably lose power. I find that a bit puzzling to believe as even without a tune I have heard only good things (good gains) with m3 cams in a m52b28??

[kingkarl 136]

You should really take this to someone who knows what they are doing.

[MoJoJoe 46]

Anybody here got a M50 manifold? I need the 2.5L one.

You should really take this to someone who knows what they are doing.

swapping them out is not the hard part, I just need a hand and help with the timing, however I am just curious if I should do it or if an cam upgrade to m3 cams is actually going to make my car run bad (less power) without a tune?

Edited April 28, 2014 by MoJoJoe

[kingkarl 136]

swapping them out is not the hard part, I just need a hand and help with the timing, however I am just curious if I should do it or if an cam upgrade to m3 cams is actually going to make my car run bad (less power) without a tune?

I would be inclined to say yes. Your standard DME's ignition/fuel map is optimized for standard cams NOT M3 ones.

Full disclosure: I work in an office. Apart from flicking through a bentley service manual once or twice I don't know sh*t.

You can muddle around with this thread for another 7 pages and get more baseless opinions like my own or you can put your hand in your wallet and take it to someone who knows what they are talking about. The real experts (the ones who do this for a living) are not going to give up the info you need for free... and why would they?

[No name user 379]

theres your answer MoJoJoe

leave it all stock much more fun

[MoJoJoe 46]

I would be inclined to say yes. Your standard DME's ignition/fuel map is optimized for standard cams NOT M3 ones.

Full disclosure: I work in an office. Apart from flicking through a bentley service manual once or twice I don't know sh*t.

You can muddle around with this thread for another 7 pages and get more baseless opinions like my own or you can put your hand in your wallet and take it to someone who knows what they are talking about. The real experts (the ones who do this for a living) are not going to give up the info you need for free... and why would they?

Thanks, US forums report the car will run, power can be noticed but it will run like crap unless tuned. too bad, the onesthat know here wont do full disclosure to guys like us . so looks like will be installing them myself with a hand from someone and then taking them to gavin for a tune up. unless of course I sell them.

theres your answer MoJoJoe

leave it all stock much more fun

m50 manifold + lsd + us m3 cams + exhaust + headers + tune + jatco (later manual from hellbm) = loads more fun.

Edited April 29, 2014 by MoJoJoe

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2122]

US engines are very different to our so called euro engines. they will be using S52 cams not euro S50 cams which i assume is what you have in mind, which are highly likely to be totally different. Even their S50s are missing the ITBs we get here etc etc

Have you even found some S50 cams to use before you are asking this question? they are probably hens teeth in this corner of the world

Edited April 29, 2014 by _Ethrty-Andy_

[No name user 379]

Thanks, US forums report the car will run, power can be noticed but it will run like crap unless tuned. too bad, the onesthat know here wont do full disclosure to guys like us . so looks like will be installing them myself with a hand from someone and then taking them to gavin for a tune up. unless of course I sell them.

m50 manifold + lsd + us m3 cams + exhaust + headers + tune + jatco (later manual from hellbm) = loads more fun.

i was taking the p.ss