Potential employment issue, help please

[Ahmedsinc 414]

Thanks, reckon there's enough food for though

Edited October 24, 2013 by Ahmedsinc

[yng_750 247]

not sure exactly, seems reasonable for them to charge if they have lost $500 a week from the lock being damaged.

i would start there.

if they have had no loss from the incident then it should not go any further, if they have had a loss then you can begin argument over liability etc but i doubt it will go that far.

your employer should have liability insurance, of which a payout around that level shouldnt raise premiums or charge an excess.

so at worst they can give you a formal warning or similar, they could use it for an excuse to fire you if they already dont like you but we dont know those specifics.

i would start on my first point, if you are llooking bad from there talk to a lawyer or CAB if you cant afford a lawyer, will save alot of heartache.

(people on here may be able to answer but probably not without levels of personal details you are not allowed to share.

[elmarco 56]

So, you were working in a high security data centre & decided to pick the lock of a cabinet you didn't have access to? The last data centre i visited was about as secure as the Bank of England (escort at all times, passport for id, senior management approval to be on site etc) - so they are understandably touchy about security. Hmmm - ill advised at best...

Unless you're a contractor with a penalties clause in your contract i doubt your company could charge you for the $3000. Their contract with the customer probably does have penalties which are enforceable but i don't believe they can just pass that on to their staff. It would be a pretty shitty thing to do even if it was legal - and if there has not been any disciplinary action internally i suspect they would be on very shaky ground.

Wouldn't worry about it until they slap a formal disciplinary process on you.

[Etwenty1 45]

If you are an employee then your employer will have insurance (you also probably have public liability if you have contents insurance). Your employer needs to follow the correct proceedure which involves a proper investigation and at worst a warning. IMHO your employer can't recover a cent from you unless you agree to it. So dont. Maintain your had good intentions and apologise if you have to but thats it. This is the advantage of being an employee rather than an employer.

[zl2cq 1]

Unless you have a copy of an agreement thats states the employee is responsible for specific things ie loss of income etc., then they are flying a kite.

However - there may be something along the lines of "property damage" "loss of income" "theft as a servant" "random drug testing" and "wilful misconduct", all of which are normal issues toward dismal.

Paying for a company loss as a servant is a bit of a joke - I am trying to image damage by an operator to a 1.75 million dollar crane, the resulting loss in income whilst parts are delivered air freight from Germay ............ really its a DoL advise issue, or does it come under Health & Safety maybe, your health and well being has been affected by their sugestive actions.

Good luck,

Paul

[Phil-540i 166]

Unless you're a contractor with a penalties clause in your contract i doubt your company could charge you for the $3000. Their contract with the customer probably does have penalties which are enforceable but i don't believe they can just pass that on to their staff. It would be a pretty shitty thing to do even if it was legal - and if there has not been any disciplinary action internally i suspect they would be on very shaky ground.

Wouldn't worry about it until they slap a formal disciplinary process on you.

Totally agree with this bit!!!! Theres big differance's between being an employee & a contractor...........

I'm a contractor, hence carry comprehensive public liability insurance. You're an employee, & the employer carries comprehensive public liability insurance against the employee's actions, in-actions, poor judgements / decisions as a staff member, towards any 3rd parties.

I wouldn't be stressing too much about it if I were you - I'm not convinced your employer is 'doing the right thing by you' though, IMO..........

[Phil-540i 166]

Matt types faster than me....................................

[Phil-540i 166]

Mate, I work with lots of different employers, & lots of different staff, so I get to see 'all sorts of things', from both sides of the fence........

People with the right attitude, & great skills & knowledge, are always an asset to a business somewhere - you'll be alright once ya get through this little 'speed-bump'......

The cup is always half full..............

(Unless its a 'D' cup, as that would be way better than half full probably................)

Edit - Theres all sorts of stuff within your original post, but this is also an incident that happened 5-6 weeks ago. You'd already been told it was dealt with & over - to have it coming up again this far down the track just 'isn't right' IMO.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Blue-540i

[pldubs 308]

I am honestly surprised you arent down the road already..

You BROKE into something that doesnt belong to you ( enough reason for instant dismissal )

You shouldve been sacked on the spot for your ridiculous lack of good judgement and charged for any damages, I know its ruthless but f**k mate if someone came to paint your house and couldnt get through a locked door so they screw driver the door what would you do? I know I would fire that tradesman and send him the bill.

Put yourself in the Clients shoes. ESPECIALLY a Client being Audited..

None of this is personal btw we all make mistakes, I just dont think you have any leg to stand on even if your 2IC said you wouldnt get in trouble.

Also as a side note, instead of sitting around for 30mins fighting the angel and devil on your shoulders why didn't you just call your boss and say " Hey bro, this f**king door is locked, who do I call ? "

[euroriffic 595]

Ghostbusters!!!

But seriously, It is a hard one. But seeming as you were ment to have full access to everything but didn't have the right key you probally should of tried to find out where to get it from instead of using the screwdriver

[Phil-540i 166]

.Also as a side note, instead of sitting around for 30mins fighting the angel and devil on your shoulders why didn't you just call your boss and say " Hey bro, this f**king door is locked, who do I call ? "

In relation to this - sometimes theres no ability to take cellphones into secure areas - they get left @ reception or where ever - in some cases this applies to employees that may work there too, as well as any external people entering the environment. So its likely it was maybe a room with only an 'internal' phone in it.....no outside line for ringing his own employer......

The other stuff you've said Tyler - I'm picking Matt already well knows where / when a different decision could have been made, but the client themselves, & the employer too also have some responsibility within this equation on things they haven't done 'the right way' too

The question being asked was / is "Can the employer come after me for costs??" - IMO the answer to that is No.......

Edited October 23, 2013 by Blue-540i

[Etwenty1 45]

Have just finished reviewing the contract and there are no clauses relating to and of the above other than the obligatory drugs & alcohol reference, which is a farce given the number of known users within the company whose behaviour they choose to blithely ignore. The member that made the threat this evening has been going out of his way to make life generally uncomfortable for me since the event, so it comes as no great surprise - though more than a little alarming. My suspicion is that the threat of being pursued for expenses is just that, but it is valuable to have an impartial opinion or two to balance perspectives. Other than an informal chat not long after I started with the company about being a grumpy bastard there have been no other issues with regards to performance and conduct.

Best keep crossing fingers I get this other job, methinks!!

I think everyone has made at least one major f--kup at work. If this was me I would approach this guy directly and say that you have noticed his change in attitude toward you, explain that were trying to do your best, that you have learnt a lesson. Ask what he intends to do about it. If you don't like his answer then go politely speak to the big boss. Just say you are worried about it ands ask whats going to happen. They need to inact some disciplinary action or back off.

IME these days employers avoid trying to sack staff using the proper route because there is a fairly strict proceedure they need to follow. Far easier to sweep it under the carpet if they think you're a dick and then make your position redundant 3 months down the track.

Sometimes its better to bring things to a head than sit fretting for ages.... Just my 2c - hope it work out.

[Ahmedsinc 414]

Again, I'm not asking for judgement on what I did. Apologies have been made and the offer to resign was tabled, and instantly rejected by my employer. My original question, which still stands, is are they legally able to pursue recovery of penalties levied by the client. Please, reserve your personal judgments to yourselves. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not necessarily to share them.

[Ahmedsinc 414]

Those that have had constructive input, thanks very much for your thoughts. I'm in the process of seeking professional advice on the matter, and as for the outcome I'll have to wait and see

[antil33t 90]

It's just a cabinet lock, stick some tape over it. pfft $500/week..

sounds like a bunch of cry babies who have blown it way out of proportion... as customers do.

[Ahmedsinc 414]

It's just a cabinet lock, stick some tape over it. pfft $500/week..

sounds like a bunch of cry babies who have blown it way out of proportion... as customers do.

Sentiments shared by everyone in the company except the guy that made the threat last night and his employment. One of the Senior techs (16+ years service) actually shed tears of laughter once he found out how certain members of management were handling the situation..... and then offered to give a reference on my behalf for the current job application

I hate internal politics!!

[Phil-540i 166]

It's a mix of employment law and contract law. Bull$hit - it's not actually - read original post........

Typical service type contracts will have "breach of contract" clauses which cover malicious and negligent actions.
If your employer as a consequence of your actions is in breach of their contract with their client then the client is entitled to a remedy. Which, as you have pointed out, it between the employer & the client to sort, so is irrelevant to original post........

If the Client has sought a remedy i.e. the $3 grand then the service provider MUST pay as they are in breach. Once again - more bull$hit, theres no 'must' to it - its open to debate, interpretation, & negotiation, once again between the SP & client.......irrelevant to Matt........

Whether you have to pay depends to some degree on how you are engaged to the service provider.
- If you are a contractor then you are most likely liable for the costs. Ummm, we already know he's not a contractor.......

- If you are a full time employee then as stated earlier the company carries insurance to cover for your actions, this does not mean you are not liable for the costs. Sounds exciting this bit - whilst employee's are liable for individual actions / prosecutions under the H & S Act, I'd love to know when any employee was last made liable for any costs incurred from actions........

If you deliberately breached known work practices and policy, and this would qualify , then it would be reasonable for the service provider to expect to recover costs from you. And if it is clear breach of employment conditions, contract or otherwise it could easily be grounds for dismissal. "This would qualify"?? That's a big statement, and your opinion. Probably a stupid statement to make though IMO without knowing all the 'facts'.....and its totally irrelevant. Matt has already offered his resignation, which was declined, or did your guide dog not pick up that bit..........??

It would be pretty hard to demonstrate that your actions were sensible, responsible or a momentary lapse as you took some time to execute a rather compromising act. The only defence you would have is:
- If you can demonstrate a benefit to your employer or the client then maybe it is not malicious and just in- appropriate but you are really stretching credibility. Once again, your opinion, for which I happen to think something else might be being stretched while you're making the statement. Maybe reading what Matt has already said would maybe be a better idea than twisting a knife....???

IMO, there are 3 things in life you can do with people. Nothing (that's called 'apathy'). You can build them up (positive stuff - gets a big thumbs-up in my book), or you can tear them down (destructive stuff, usually done to make some-one else feel good bout themselves, feed an ego, whatever - its a 'negative action' IMO anyway)

Me - I'll happily be flamed / banned / warned for this post............

[Phil-540i 166]

Sentiments shared by everyone in the company except the guy that made the threat last night and his employment. One of the Senior techs (16+ years service) actually shed tears of laughter once he found out how certain members of management were handling the situation..... and then offered to give a reference on my behalf for the current job application

I hate internal politics!!

I hope ya get that job ae...........

[Driftracewake 22]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not necessarily to share them.

All hail the dictator!