Motors.. And More Motors

[Guest Andrew]

OK

Went to see Ernst at Bavarian today.. I was almost dead set on the M50 2.5 ltr setup and was beggining to organise it and gather parts

BUT

Ernst reckons that the 325e bottom (2.7 ltr) with 325i head would make a killer motor and easily out muscle the m50 2.5. I also have the added advantage that another m20 would of course drop right in. It will work out cheaper as well.

I'm trying to get best HP for dollar here.

(and E30-323 don't go say twin turbo soarer motor )

I know hartge made a prettty nice motor with that config with (B H 27 or something)

What do you think.

p.s saw a cool m20 trumpet intake setup at Bavarian.. would sound cool on the little 6 i reckon!

[Guest Spargo]

M50 2.5 with M3 cams, exhaust and intake will make 250hp. Show me ANY M20 (3.0L inlcuded) that can make 250hp. The best i have EVER seen was 230hp. and that was on a £6,500 2.7 motor.

Go M50 dude.

[E30-323ti 66]

There is a certain X factor to doing the stroker build I guess that is why quite a few people in the states do it (and it's cheap).

But at the end of the day you still have a motor that was designed in the '70s and not built to be a high Hp engine.

In leiu of a toyota soarer motor I would go the M50, you have technology on your side there, at least when you put it in you know you have 200hp.

Have you added an aftermarket ECU into the costs as you will need one to make the most of the stroker, as the old dumbass L-jet can be tricked to work it still won't be ideal (rich down low then leans out up top etc...).

go the M50

my 2c

[E30-323ti 66]

Or you could go turbo!!

Just turbo the M20, or rebuild it with low-comp forgies and turbo it if you want to be more refined!!

250hp should be easy out of a built turbo m20.

You could even build up another motor on the side and just drop it in one weekend, I have a M20 lying around you could have for next to nothing.

[Guest Andrew]

means i'm going to have to find the 524 td crank and some kind of manifold.

I'd love to go the turbo option, its just a matter of parts.

[E30-323ti 66]

You don't "need" the 524td crank, a manifold is't much of a problem, just make a collector from the 2 stock manifolds (cheap $200) or there is a guy in Huntly that makes awesome SS tube manifolds for evo's etc... he also does custom work (and in steam bends too, alot less $$ than SS), I think the steampipe EVO ones are $440, so maybe $700 for a real nice 6cyl one??

Use a turbo from a GTS25t skyline, or a bigger custom built one, depends on $$$.

[Guest Andrew]

OK,

so what do I need to run a low boost turbo setup. If possible could you list what parts.

Something to get more fuel into motor

Something to get oil to turbo?

Intercooler?

Lower compression?

Stronger con rods + engine internals?

enlighten me.. and i'll cost it all up.

What in the way of electronics? as you were saying L-jet will lean out.. etc

Cheers

[Guest Spargo]

Have a look on the forced induction forum on E30Sport.Net, There are about 15+ guys there running 2.7 turbos, mostly on the cheeeep.

[Gus 5]

E30-323ti heard bout your soarer engine from andrew....niiice...how you go about it?? i dont even have an e30 yet so im just a big windbag at the moment...but will hopefully be getting one january....and in a couple years looking to poss do a turbo jap....was keen on a RB26DETT...but can imagine that getting very expensive very quickly...what sorta price did your conversion cost?? and any idea as to what sort of Hp figures your putting out? cheers gus

[E30-323ti 66]

Andrew:

Hardware

2 into 1 collector from the stock BMW manifolds with flange to suit turbo.

Turbo, something T3 sized.

Intercooler, VR-4, EVO, whatever fits best unlike my monster.

Piping, mild steel is OK, just get it hpc'd

Exhaust, single 2 1/2" should be adequate.

Oil drain fitted to the sump, you could get one welded to the alloy sump or thread a hole and use a brass fitting.

Oil feed, as you've prolly read on E3S this need to have the pressure reduced, if you get the turbo rebuilt (recomended, Steve Murch) he can prolly put a restrictor in the feed on the turbo so you don't need to worry.

Electrical tricks

AFM, I'm not familiar with turboing AFM equiped NA cars, so I'm not sure what the deal is there, most I have seen run the AFM after the turbo, changing to the M30 AFM may be enough.

As for more fuel, because the L-jet ecu is so dumb it doesn't calculate any ignition, all the ecu does is tell the ignitor how many RPM the engine is doing (thus how many pulses to send). There fore you can wire in a boost switch (set it at what ever psi the engine starts to lean out under boost) the bypasses the EFI temp sensor and goes through a POT (variable resistor) that you control. What this does is tricks the ECU into thinking the engine is cold and it richens the mixture accordingly, On the BMW I don't know if it will use the cold start injector for this or actually change the injector pulse width, either way as long as it is doing what you want (not leaning out) it doesn't matter how.

Or,

You could use a RRFPR (rising rate fuel pressure regulator). I think the malpassi ones run a 3:1 on boost, eg. boost 1psi fuel press goes up 3psi, this increases the flow through the injectors under boost. and it give you more scope to tune if you install larger injectors.

Or,

Get a Microtech, pretty cheap and perform well and unlimited tuneability.

You just have to spend time tuning the cruise maps to make them run economically.

What CR is the 320i?? 9.something??

I would think 7-8psi on stock internals. More with an aftermarket ecu because you can tune the ignition curve to suit (ie, prevent detonation)

What about a M30 conversion, cheap as!! Nice big 3.5l.

Gus:

here is some info

I think you would be very pressed to fit a RB26 in a e30, the 1JZ is a more compact engine and it is a tight squeeze.

At the mo around $7000 I think.

[Guest Andrew]

Thanks heaps for that detailed info... a lot of planning is going to be needed.

I was thinking, you pop the AFM in after the turbo and its going to be a pretty massive restriction isn't it? ..although coming to think of it, before the turbo it will also restrict.

What does the AFM actually do.. does the car need it? If the L-Jet ecu is as dumb as you say it is surely its not really measuring to see if the car is running stoich or not? Perhaps it could be removed all together and tricked with some electronics.

I'll probably need some higher flow injectors also, the rising fuel pressure system sounds the simpliest to trouble shoot and tune.

As far as I know the CR on the 2 ltr M20 is 9:1 .. 325i running 8.5 I think.

OK, lets say I am running the turbo now. Not that how much HP i'm putting out is that important to me but what else is going to complain down the driveline? Will the clutch, gearbox and final drive be up to the punishment?

My goal is some nice power and reliable, although the reliable part is going to be hard with a home built system I imagine.

You mentioned before your 2.3 motor is for sale. Whats dead on it and how much would you sell it for (I heard the 323 head was very free flowing).

At least i'll have plenty of money to spend on performance, i've decided i'm not bothering at all with looks.

[E30-323ti 66]

The AFM measures how much air is going into the engine.

Based on this and RPM the ECU calculates how much fuel to put in.

The TPS (throttle position sensor) really only acts as a acceleration enrichment device, the airtemp sensor (built into the AFM) and EFI temp sensor (in the thermostat housing I think) fine tune the fuel mix.

Therefore the AFM is the main fuel controlling device (as rpm isn't adjustable as such) and can not be removed.

Link use to make a AFM link which replaced the AFM with a MAP sensor so you could adjust the input to the ECU which in turn changes the fuel.

I think they stopped making it because ECU started to think more and figure out when you were trying to fiddle them.

The 2.3 just got old, needs new rings (bearings wouldn't hurt either).

It blew a head gasket a while back so I got the head rebuilt & cleaned up so it is mint, It went really well for a few months until the bottom end said no more, common problem with old engines.

I'll think of some $$$.

[Guest Andrew]

so.. L-Jetronic uses a centrifugal system to advance and retard ignition timing? That I guess removes some complications. R.e the fuel issue I think it would be straight forward to get the cold start injector to come on at a specific RPM range.

Any idea of the cost to build up your 2.3 ltr motor with the forged pistons and get it working again ready to be given some forced induction? + how much you'd sell the motor for.

My best option is to buy your motor and turbo that up and keep my m20 in good condition for a rainy day. I'll also probably get more HP out of your motor.

Anyone know any good books on how the L-jet system works in detail electronically.. may as well put my dad to good use finding a way of tricking it. Also any good books on actual turbo system designs, not just theory.

Time to start planning.. yay .. holidays will give me a good 2 months to work on getting this all installed.

[E30-323ti 66]

When I was in Auckers last there were some really good books on Bosch fuel injection at Borders on Queen St.

For turbo stuff you can't go past "Maximum Boost" By Corky Bell, have a look on Amazon for it.

Getting some forgies for the 2.3l (or anything other than a 2.5l ex US) may be tricky, May need to have them custom made by ROSS or similar. maybe $1500??? Just need to send them a stock one to copy.

Then there is the usual rebuild cost on top of that.

If you are going to spend the $$$ on forgies you should really use a aftermarket ECU to get the most out of the low comp engine build.

Then you would be making some decent power, +300hp.

It's a horrible game this car modding business!!

[Guest Andrew]

hmm..

I could go OK without the forged pistons though couldn't I? Perhaps lower compression with a thicker gasket?

0837601606 Maximum Boost Designing Testing And Installing Turbocharger Systems BELL C

$109.95 More Info Ad

Ain't cheap.. oh well at least I get BMWCC discount from those guys. Techbooks in Newmarket.

[E30-323ti 66]

You could see if it is the library, $110 seems a bit steep, I'm sure it was around $30-40 Us on Amazon, also check on www.autospeed.com.au I think it is there to.

On stock internals you would't want to higher than 10psi without a new ECU because you can't control the ignition timing and fueling accurately enough to stop detonation (or detect it), even 10psi maybe too much for pump gas (because of slight variations in octane allowing no room for error).

Have a think and put things into perspective.

What do you want??

Turbo the stock M20 on the cheap, hope it lasts a year or so till you put a M50 in it?? Prolly get 200hp or so.

Build a Turbo M20, spend a bit more doing things properly?? Prolly capable of supporting over 300hp with ECU & Forgies.

Do the M50 conversion now. Prolly cost as much (if not more) as the built turbo M20 and have 200hp.

Or I found this:

Go the big block M30.

I'm contemplating this for when the 323i is finished as I can transfer all my shocks, brakes etc... to another E30 when I go to the E36 bits.

Maybe as a club race/Targa car.

Too many things to choose from!!

[Guest Andrew]

Yeah 24 US on Amazon. It just takes so long. Not like i need it tommorow though.

What I want:

- To turbo my current m20 running low boost, less than 10. Ideally change no stock internals and run it till it dies. Then on the side build up an m20 that will be able to handle a bit more boost and pop it in when my m20 dies.

- To have a daily driver that won't sh*t out on me and that my insurance company will still insure.

- To have a car that will be fun for the odd track day an autocross.

- To do most of it myself.

What I don't want:

- To do the m50 conversion any more. Too much hassle and money for too little power.

- Spend much over $3000

So yes.. do you think thats achievable?

Can I just run a parts list past by you for turbo-ing the stock motor

Turbo.. from what I'm not sure.

M30 AFM

325 Throttle Body (its a bit bigger)

RRFPR

Some way of getting the manifold to go into 1 peice to go into turbo

IC

BOV?

Turbo timer?

Various gauge and gauge senders.

[E30-323ti 66]

$3000 will prolly cover the "- To turbo my current m20 running low boost, less than 10. Ideally change no stock internals and run it till it dies. " option.

If you plan on going turbo then get an ECU for stage 1 even, it will enable your stock engine to last longer (due to the tuneability).

Something like a Link or microtech MTX8 will be ample enough.

With the Link you will have lots of people that can tune it well, not so many for the Microtech but I think it is a better ECU.

That leaves:

Some way of getting the manifold to go into 1 peice to go into turbo

IC

BOV?

See how the stock injectors go, if they are no good replace with bigger M30 ones (pretty cheap), and no prob to retune the ECU (because you can!!)

No AFM need with new ECU

Turbo, get a 2nd hand Garrett T3 and go see Steve Murch (he may even have a couple) get it recon'd if needed.

Can you weld??

Have access to a welder??

[Guest Andrew]

Nope can't weld. I guess I have access to a welder if I pay someone.

Which Link ECU would I be looking at? Would It be possible to get one I could tune myself, with a laptop? So the ECU would completely replace the L-Jet system.. how would something like that get installed .. hmm i'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. Does it augment the stock unit.. or replace it completely.

Where is Steve Murch based?

Cheers for all the advice.. ah the joys of cars. I can see this being a very expensive project..

[*sic 1]

yea steping into the wonderful world of computer management... link will be expensive and ussually requires a good tune on the dyno to get any performance based gains from it. they are (for honda) either piggy-back chips, or complete replacement of the stock ecu, there are also various levels of tuneability and features that come with the $$$ you pay.. head to the site and check it out... or try gizmo.. im unsure as to there chipping or bmw's though. (sorry im a honda guy.. to poor to have homys ride)

[E30-323ti 66]

as *SIC said it is a replacement ECU so you no longer need the L-Jet ECU.

As for being expensive, the link is probably the cheapest ECU on the market and most good tuners can road tune the link very well.

If you can't do alot of the fabricating work yourself it will cost you alot.

Things like exhaust manifolds, exhaust pipes, IC pipes become costly.

If you have a welder then it's just materials you have to pay for.

Give Andre a call at Speedtech here in Wgtn and ask him how much to install and tune a base Link ECU on a Turbo BMW. He's a good guy and very helpful (this week may not be a good time though as he has heaps of cars that are getting ready for the autosalon).

For the turbo (if it doesn't need a rebuild) and associated piping etc... should go no more than $1500 if you do it your self.

I'm not sure how to get ahold of steve these days, you can ask someone like Ohlsen Developments as they do alot of work through Steve.

Good Luck.

ps. $250 for the 2.3l M20 engine only.

$500ono for everything, G/box, manifolds, wiring, AFM etc...

I can arrange freight also, should be pretty cheap.

[Guest Spargo]

Corky Bell's book is $112 from Equie Levire (sp?) in NewMarket.

[Guest Andrew]

Just spoke to my dad... he says he is alright electric welding but not gas. Can it all be done with electric welders?

R.E the manifold, do I need a whole new one, or can a part just be made to made the 2 go in to one. You know how the 6 pipes go into 2 all the way to the end of the car, would an acceptable piece be just to make that 2 go into 1 then into the turbo, then a single pipe exhaust all the way to the back?

I wonder if I can still do this thing on a $3000 budget Oh well.. I'm commited now, once I get my mind set on something I have a kind of perverted desire to see it all the way through.

I'll give Andre a call a bit nearer the install date.

$250 for your motor aye? I heard the 323 head was very free flowing, I wonder if there would be any gain popping it on my motor.

[E30-323ti 66]

By Electric welding does he mean MIG, TIG or Arc??

I use a MIG for most.

Does your engine have 2 separate manifolds on the head?? (like 325's and my 323)

My sisters '89 320i has one with 2 outlets.

If it has 2 separate manifolds you can make a 2 into 1 collector from steam pipe (cheap) to the turbo.

No problems running a single pipe to the rear, if you are lowering the car (or have already) you may have problems under the rear subframe.

I'm having this issue at the Mo as I want a 3" pipe instead of the old 2.25" but you loose alot of ground clearance, work out the cross sectional area of the 2 and see what size single it equates to. eg 2x2.25" =(approx) 1x3"

As for the 323 head, $250(for the engine) covers about 1/2 the head rebuild cost when I did it, at least it has a good head on it.

Does it have bigger valves etc than the 320i??

If you were to use it you could install a thicker h/g to lower the CR at the same time.

Is your 320i a CAT model?? (has catalytic convertor) as they have a lower CR than non-CAT models.

I think it could be done on a 3g budget, just do as much as you can yourself. The ECU & tuning will chew out at least 1/2 of that.

I have a couple of small IC's here you could have, (323gtx & MR2 Turbo) to help keep costs down for starters.

Just remember if you fork out for a ECU you can use it on anything in the future.

[Guest Andrew]

OK, I have now a basic plan from talking with you guys

- Get the link, either way I'm going to need it and as you say its more of an investment as I can use it in any car. I'll do this in december.

- Start running a DFI system and get it working with the link.

- Buy the turbo, get a 2 in to 1 collector. Get associtated piping and everything made. + something to reduce oil pressure for turbo.

- Buy a small IC from you.

- Use a RRFPR for my fuel needs.

- Get a custom exhaust made back from the turbo.

- Run the stock motor on low boost aiming for 200 hp at the wheels.

The Corky Bell book is on its way from America.. after that I should be able to answer some of my technical question. But i'll ask them here also.

What does a turbo timer do to protect the turbo?

Do I need a BOV?

Cheers Andrew