3pedals

Alfa Guilia

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The assumption that there will a service counter might be the first challenge - followed closely by parts availability

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Supposedly landing the hot ones in May and the 2 litre 210 kW cooking variety a month later, not sure that I can buy an Alfa with a yank donk in it though especially since its only single cam.

Reports suggest handling is superior to latest two generations of 3 series but at $74,000 starting price you would want it to be?  

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The Grand Tour and Top Gear love it.

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Been in one - what an M3 should be!

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2 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Been in one - what an M3 should be!

Reviews so far say that it's a real driver's car, quick too. Motor trend took the Alfa and an M3 Competition pack round Chuckwalla Raceway 2.68 miles and the Alfa won by 0.4 second. Interestingly they said the Cadillac ATS-V is the best handling sports sedan full stop.

 

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jean-luc-picard-walk-omg-drivers-car-claim-with-auto-transmission-bring-my-popcorn.jpg

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They did have an actual moments silence for the manual transmission. 

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The Manual is available for Left hand drive markets - Alfa factory cannot justify the investment in a manual for the minority RHD market - we should have gone the way of the swedes.

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I wish we all had the steering wheel on the same side. Only bonus of RHD is cheap Jap imports which means cheap BMW's.

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14 hours ago, Herbmiester said:

Reviews so far say that it's a real driver's car, quick too. Motor trend took the Alfa and an M3 Competition pack round Chuckwalla Raceway 2.68 miles and the Alfa won by 0.4 second. Interestingly they said the Cadillac ATS-V is the best handling sports sedan full stop.

 

Alfa, or whoever owns them at the time, have always been capable of designing wonderful machines. Traditionally they have looked good, sounded good and driven fantastically.

Unfortunately they have been let down in other areas, which has become more of an issue as consumers have become less forgiving. Fingers crossed the historical foibles of the Alfa have been solved and this will be the start of a major resurgence for the brand and not a false dawn.

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1 hour ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Alfa, or whoever owns them at the time, have always been capable of designing wonderful machines. Traditionally they have looked good, sounded good and driven fantastically.

Unfortunately they have been let down in other areas, which has become more of an issue as consumers have become less forgiving. Fingers crossed the historical foibles of the Alfa have been solved and this will be the start of a major resurgence for the brand and not a false dawn.

Alfa  were owned by themselves until the late 60's /early 70's when the Italian government became a major share holder. their shareholding was subsequently sold to Fiat  which is still the principal owner of Alfa .It was the Government / and early Fiat era that took Alfa towards mainstream cost based engineering. They seem to have moved on as one would expect in nearly 40 years?

16 hours ago, Herbmiester said:

Reviews so far say that it's a real driver's car, quick too. Motor trend took the Alfa and an M3 Competition pack round Chuckwalla Raceway 2.68 miles and the Alfa won by 0.4 second. Interestingly they said the Cadillac ATS-V is the best handling sports sedan full stop.

 

The short track suits the Caddy not the other two - which trash it on the ring for example.  Caddy is a co- developed platform

16 hours ago, Olaf said:

jean-luc-picard-walk-omg-drivers-car-claim-with-auto-transmission-bring-my-popcorn.jpg

love the visuals - it is a conventional auto ZF 8HP Is the DCT dead?  and a whopping 80kg for the box

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The 6 speed manual is dead

ZF-7.PNG

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4 hours ago, 3pedals said:

The 6 speed manual is dead

ZF-7.PNG

Crikey, there's more business for tattoo artists, updating people's 5-speed gate tattoos... 

One assumes it'll be a sequential shift rather than a conventional gate?

where does DCT fit into this?  I guess I should look for a diagram, I understand it's dual-clutch.

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Interestingly the Guilia was quite a few seconds faster round the "Ring" with an auto than it was with the manual, so yes perhaps manuals are dead after all. As to it being faster round the "Ring" than an M3 or a Caddy, yes perhaps that could be true but in the real world including any racetracks in NZ I doubt it would be able to show a clear set of heals to either of the aforementioned vehicles unless it rained and then the Quadrafoglio would have an advantage. I haven't driven the Alfa and my time in an M3 was only the standard version not the Competition pack and it was plenty quick, in fact it reminded me of a V8 muscle car, too much power for the available traction, but it's really hard to gauge a car of this capability on the street. I suspect driver capability would be more of a factor. Anyway .4 of a second on a 2 minute lap is pretty close to being "within the noise".  BMW might have shown thier hand with the new M5 which is rear biased X drive, perhaps the next M3 will have the same.

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9 hours ago, Herbmiester said:

in fact it reminded me of a V8 muscle car, too much power for the available traction, but it's really hard to gauge a car of this capability on the street.

Taking just this short section of John's quote. The car manufactures have for years been in a race or one up man Ship to produce more Hp from each new model. Then having to over come the problem of puttiing that hp to good use by introducing electronic wizadry and more expensive drive trains. All good for track car set ups  surely the average street motorist are not interested in the whole hp race only in a car that is functional, well presented and cost effective. Plus want cost them a arm and leg when all the electronc's fail.

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Your point is very true of the average street motorist Allan, that is exactly what they tend to be looking for. However, there are people in the market that want a car that is more about noise, speed and horsepower even thought there is very little chance that the car will ever see a track day or be driven particularly hard on the road. Hell, some people even buy million dollar supercars and drive them in Auckland traffic and on NZs 100km/h limited roads.

The people in this group may (not all of them, but certaily some) like the one-upmanship and bragging rights of the horse power war. "Oh your shopping trolley has only got 450hp, mine has got 500hp which is so much more useful in daily traffic"

On the plus side, with the advent of switchable gearboxes, driving modes and suspension these cars are now a whole lot more useable as a daily, an E36 M3 daily just about drove me mad, an F80 M3 daily would be heaven, yet without compromising on the performance for when you want to drive a little more 'spiritedly' or heaven forbid actually get it on some unrestricted tarmac.

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The 7 speed ZF manual is a stripped down DCT box- they chucked away all the automated shifting crap  and reduced the weight from about 82 kg down to about  50kg . Importantly the box uses a conventional H pattern but shifts faster than average so it is in how the DCT box is laid out.

The 8HP ( 8 speed auto)  tips the scales at over 90kg  which is not much heavier than the DCT - but now they can shift just as quick and just as sharp so the DCT is probably going to go the way of the BMW SMG  &  Alfa Selespeed - nice idea (DCT) but it's expensive, unreliable and basically flawed  after all it's "English Technology" (oxymoron)   that came from buses & trucks of the 50's) .

Which then brings us back to three choices   High performance manuals, High performance autos and slushmatics. 

When you compare the manual to the auto the weight is significant: 38kg for the 5speed in the M3 49kg for the 6 speed about  50kg the 7 speed or a whopping 90kg for the 8speed auto. Save 9kg with a carbon roof but strap an extra 40kg on the tranny?

The drive on the traction control/ rev limiter/ shift  programme culture  from DCT and autos  produces fast times around race tracks - BUT - the sound is FERKIN ugly   and the driving is blunt instrument culture- been there,  experienced it - moved on.

The 7 speed manual is already in a production car  and  it contributes to the lithe , dynamic behaviour of a lightweight  car - I'm looking forward to a renaissance of the "Drivers / Enthusiasts"  car - one that focusses on purism: is fun to drive, dynamic and efficient - on the road.  The Alfa Guilia  is heading in the right direction but only in Europe.

 

 

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On 20 May 2017 at 4:52 PM, 3pedals said:

 

 

are the manuals still dual clutch?I reckon the ultimate manual would be a motorcycle style constant mesh sequential 

Edited by E30 325i Rag-Top
No need to quote previous post in yours.

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No, Dual clutch gone - it looks like the benefit  in shift speed comes from how the gears are grouped for  odd/ even shifts.

Box has actually been around for more than 5 years and ZF are not the only manufacturer making one.

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Interesting, a big part of the DCT was that the drive was never interrupted when changing gears, as the next set of cogs was "pre-engaged" in the box, if the two clutches are not part of this box then that functionality would be lost as well right?

Mercs autos are now upto 9-speed I think it is, and I believe I have seen a review for a 10-speed auto possibly a Lexus model? If manual is to match that then it would be a very intricate selector gate, and the opportunity for a money shift would be greatly increased I would suggest.

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Sounds like we are heading back to the manual vs auto debate but let's peel it back a bit.

The DCT is only a modern version of the 1950's Preselect gearbox found in buses, trucks and Lanchester cars it is complicated and is actually more suited to an east west alignment because it is a fat gearbox. 

The 8/9 and probably 10HP are linear gearboxes more suited to RWD and Rear biased 4WD systems  so that's your Aston Martin,  BMW,  Merc etc.

So:

  • Is the pre engagement of any value in a true manual - NO so no "loss"
  • Does an 8/9/10 speed auto offer any real benefit over a Manual - yes convenience but then so did the earlier 2,3,4,5,6 & 7 speed autos
  • What are the real benefits - convenience - some gains on the race track, some gains in fuel efficiency.
  • What are the fake benefits - faster changes - very important at 15kmh in a traffic jamb (not)? more gears ( less reliability and more weight)
  • What are the drawbacks of the 8/9/10 speed gearboxes - weight, size , complexity& cost.

We will all make our own "value decisions" but few will do it with any true needs/ requirements  based critical analysis.

Gears are the new cup holders for the marketing people - I need an 8x3 in my truck because I need to optimise torque delivery  with only 20kW/ 50Nm per tonne but in an Aston Martin with 200kW & 300Nm per tonne it is not about power / torque delivery.   

 

 

 

 

 

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Realistically, none of it is really for the benefit of the consumer. It is a method of reducing the fuel consumption and therefore the emissions. That is the only measure that is actually moving drivetrain engineering forward at the moment. To continue selling ICE vehicles you have to meet the new, ever decreasing, limits to satisfy the tree huggers. And you need to sell those to actually make some money..

Marketing then take what the clever blokes in white coats have developed and put some spin on it to make it sound good and sell it to the consumer as being a benefit for them.

George Orwell was a very insightful man.

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3 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Realistically, none of it is really for the benefit of the consumer. It is a method of reducing the fuel consumption and therefore the emissions. That is the only measure that is actually moving drivetrain engineering forward at the moment. To continue selling ICE vehicles you have to meet the new, ever decreasing, limits to satisfy the tree huggers. And you need to sell those to actually make some money..

Marketing then take what the clever blokes in white coats have developed and put some spin on it to make it sound good and sell it to the consumer as being a benefit for them.

George Orwell was a very insightful man.

Have you been partaking of the other Johns' herbs?? - that's pretty weird expunsion coming from the arch defender of the "dealer cult"

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4 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Realistically, none of it is really for the benefit of the consumer. It is a method of reducing the fuel consumption and therefore the emissions.

that's what I was thinking, too.  The shifts have become so smooth, having access to more ratios must provide or an overall smoother drive that will satisfy more punters, and even make the 2%** of clients spending real bread and who are also driving enthusiasts nod in approval.  Where an oil-burner is concerned, matching ratios to the right rev range at right road speed must be so much easier with an extra couple of cogs, thus increasing on-road performance and reducing emissions.

** baseless estimate!  Jon, any broad approximations of what percentage of new buyers (those buying a new BMW, not first-time customers) for BMW in NZ would be categorised as 'driving entusiasts'?

Edited by Olaf
explanation

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1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

Have you been partaking of the other Johns' herbs?? - that's pretty weird expunsion coming from the arch defender of the "dealer cult"

No herbs required, maybe it's just an off day?

And you don't need to quote the previous thread in your reply - makes the thread twice as long for no reason.

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