TermiPeteNZ

NZ new i8 for sale in Welly

40 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, M3_Power said:

Where batteries come from ... it’s the new blood diamond.

F1290CE8-C027-4B0F-8987-DE60E2943DC5.jpeg

I find it extremely ironic to have this picture linked here, when the peer reviewed academic article I posted in a different thread is called propaganda. :) 

One doesn't have to like EVs to understand they are cleaner. One doesn't have to like EVs to see they are objectively better for the environment, even when you account for the batteries, and the entire manufacturing process, including disposal. (This is precisely what the academic article I posted is all about.) 

Anyone wanting to stick with their ICE because it sounds better, all the power to you. I have one too. But let's not pretend they are cleaner, in any way. I presume everyone understands fossil fuels are a finite resource. One can perhaps debate how much longer it'll be an abundant resource like it's been in the past 150ish years, but that it is finite is not a debate at all. Shall we stick heads in the sand and pretend otherwise because of this picture? Please.

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5 minutes ago, Gabe79 said:

If it's how the car sounds... we can have speakers. :)

I think Tesla's shown performance, or power delivery, in EVs is quite not bad. In fact, even in the Leaf, pushing the gas pedal to the floor results in quite a satisfying feeling, even as compared to my 530i. :)

Yes we've all watched the P100D take down a V8 super car or the latest AMG E class in a drag race. That's not the point. The point is with an ICE you have so much more character in the WAY it delivers the power and torque. 

 

And I don't think artificial engine sounds will ever compare to the true sound.

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3 minutes ago, Gabe79 said:

I find it extremely ironic to have this picture linked here, when the peer reviewed academic article I posted in a different thread is called propaganda. :) 

One doesn't have to like EVs to understand they are cleaner. One doesn't have to like EVs to see they are objectively better for the environment, even when you account for the batteries, and the entire manufacturing process, including disposal. (This is precisely what the academic article I posted is all about.) 

Anyone wanting to stick with their ICE because it sounds better, all the power to you. I have one too. But let's not pretend they are cleaner, in any way. I presume everyone understands fossil fuels are a finite resource. One can perhaps debate how much longer it'll be an abundant resource like it's been in the past 150ish years, but that it is finite is not a debate at all. Shall we stick heads in the sand and pretend otherwise because of this picture? Please.

I think what we're trying to do in the nicest way possible....

 

 

is to go and preach your EV praise on the appropriate forum.

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Just now, BreakMyWindow said:

Yes we've all watched the P100D take down a V8 super car or the latest AMG E class in a drag race. That's not the point. The point is with an ICE you have so much more character in the WAY it delivers the power and torque. 

 

And I don't think artificial engine sounds will ever compare to the true sound.

I understand. I like the feel too. It's something I can live without. For me, it's like the SR71, it's amazing and cool, and obsolete* (Ironically, it's uneconomical to run, go figure...) That's where the ICE is going...

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Just now, BreakMyWindow said:

I think what we're trying to do in the nicest way possible....

is to go and preach your EV praise on the appropriate forum.

I see, you only want to hear things you already agree with? This is a thread about an EV. Is this not an appropriate forum for an EV discussion?

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1 minute ago, Gabe79 said:

I see, you only want to hear things you already agree with? This is a thread about an EV. Is this not an appropriate forum for an EV discussion?

The thread is actually about the i8 which is a hybrid vehicle.

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Just now, BreakMyWindow said:

The thread is actually about the i8 which is a hybrid vehicle.

Is it? lame. Thanks for correcting me. :)

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1 hour ago, Gabe79 said:

One doesn't have to like EVs to understand they are cleaner. One doesn't have to like EVs to see they are objectively better for the environment, even when you account for the batteries, and the entire manufacturing process, including disposal. (This is precisely what the academic article I posted is all about.) 

It depends entirely on the metric you are measuring to give the results, if you pick Co2 emissions (as per your article) then it is easy to fudge the numbers to make it look like EVs are the better option - there are a lot of premise and basis on the estimations as you cannot actually measure the emissions for each part of every car that is made.

If you start looking into the manufacture of the high capacity batteries, the rare earth magnets and the electronic controls and then measure the relative amounts of other harmful emissions then it is a very different picture. Nothing like facts to get in the way of an argument.

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15 minutes ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

It depends entirely on the metric you are measuring to give the results, if you pick Co2 emissions (as per your article) then it is easy to fudge the numbers to make it look like EVs are the better option - there are a lot of premise and basis on the estimations as you cannot actually measure the emissions for each part of every car that is made.

If you start looking into the manufacture of the high capacity batteries, the rare earth magnets and the electronic controls and then measure the relative amounts of other harmful emissions then it is a very different picture. Nothing like facts to get in the way of an argument.

It is true there are a lot of differing metrics, and even the studies on this topic acknowledge this. That said, broadly speaking. At worse, EV production is as damaging to the environment as extremely-efficient combustion engines, or diesels, when the EV ends up using coal-powered electricity. This is accounting for the production impact of the batteries, and taking into account the impact of recycling the batteries. For study purposes, they compare end to end production to disposal of EVs and ICEVs with 100k km, 150k km and 200k km. Generally speaking, the longer the car lasts, the more dramatic the impact difference between the two.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1530-9290.2012.00532.x/full - European mix, 10-24% decrease in emissions end to end. EVs make a lot more sense in clean-power countries they find

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11367-012-0440-9 - On balance, EVs produce less emissions end to end. Coal powered electricity flips this around pretty hard.

I just cite the two with a healthy number of subsequent citations, there are many. Google scholar: environmental impact ev battery production

Note Coal is being phased out almost everywhere, natural gas beats it pretty hard on a cost basis, so that'll shift the numbers. Fossil fuels being finite, there is a heck of a lot of research into improving efficiency in electricity production, as well as improvements in how rare earth metals are mined. (also a finite, yet recyclable resource) 

The production impact of EVs currently is actually larger than that of ICEVs, the subsequent 100k KM or so make all the difference. It's comparing something that is less than 30% efficient for the most part, with something that is 80%+ efficient. Given NZ's power grid, EVs beat ICEVs hands down on every metric, minus fun, or satisfying sound. :)

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I like the term GWP = Global Warming Potential, the big boogey man! So, yes we are considering C02 emissions etc.

Where do they measure the levels of highly toxic waste that are produced for the different vehicles? It doens't cause global warming, but I still don't want to eat it.

There is a very large and powerful lobby that pushes this barrow, and you are rounded on if you question it. Yes, there are many benefits across a number of metrics, however the disadvantages are conveniently forgotten and the topic quickly changed.

Anywho, this thread is about the i8 for sale, which is actually a PHEV, not a hybrid there is a big difference, so lets maybe just stick to that shall we?

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1 hour ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

 

There is a very large and powerful lobby that pushes this barrow, and you are rounded on if you question it. Yes, there are many benefits across a number of metrics, however the disadvantages are conveniently forgotten and the topic quickly changed.

Well said :) 

Good point about the PHEV aspect of the i8, it's not really a new concept (ie diesel electric trains etc) but fairly revolutionary when it comes to a car. 

Will be good to see more of them and where they can take it, while keeping a sporty conventional car feel that plenty of buyers want. 

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Micheal a fair description Generating plant feeds electricity into the grid electric car owner needs to recharge car plugs in and begins recharge. Owner  not knowing that the electricity was created by burning foil fuels.

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21 hours ago, Gabe79 said:

Not all electrics have crap range. The Leaf sure does, and we don't have a lot of options here in NZ, but there are good EVs with meaningful range in other countries, excluding Teslas. The Chevy Bolt has range that's quite alright, 370km on a charge. The Renaut Zoe can go 400km on a charge. The bottom end Tesla model S can go 330km on a charge. I think it gets pedantic to say the range isn't as good as a ICE car. Who cares at that stage? Note, even the relatively limited Leaf, in the right situation has no real range issues, it just has to suit your needs (and would never be an only car...)

Also, obviously, battery technology is improving by leaps and bounds every year. The Leaf batteries were originally projected to degrade a lot faster than they have been, and they are improving and gaining capacity every year. Current model Leaf batteries have 3 times the capacity my 2011 model has. I don't imagine that come 2020, or much less 2030, or 2040, range for EVs will be an issue at all. I do wonder what else will be available then though. Ah, the future is bright. :)

You are still missing my point - I am not against EV's but just the way most manufacturers are powering them.

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19 hours ago, Gabe79 said:

As opposed to an internal combustion engine? I'm confused. 

indeed, particularly in niu zild, where most of our electricity is generated from renewable souces (hydro-electric, wind, and geothermal), gas generally only used for peaker plant generation, and barely any coal (Huntly is only used when demand is very high, IIRC it takes four or five days to bring online).

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oh, and thankfully our electricity cost is not geared to forex rates, unlike petrol and diesel.   we're about to see price increases at the pump as the Jacinda Effect continues to quietly push our USD rate further south.  0.75 in July 17, now 0.68 and inexorably falling.

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