Gabe79

Electric cars emit 50% less greenhouse gas than diesel, study finds

133 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Actually no because  (a) its not an elephant  and (b) it's the deliberately misleading John Key defence - its not either / or,  its every one playing their part and if you read my comment for the information you will see that it has potentially significant flow on effects like reduction in tanker numbers. 

And your "even in Aus"  comment is  fatally flawed because: Aus like the US  is very fossil fuels based where as here we are hydro based so the impact here will be more significant as it will be in Europe and Japan. 

We are already moving to electric heavy machinery like  170 tonne dump trucks because it is blindingly sensible compared to the dinosaur diesel versions high torque on start up and no fuel use on idle. 

The fact is that individual car use is a relativily small co2 producer and that battery EVs are not the solution. .Battery trucks....even more outlandish.I dont think that hydro will be able to provide the total energy we require.You are right though that the impact of evs here will be more useful than more fossil based electricicty production

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, kiwi535 said:

The fact is that individual car use is a relativily small co2 producer and that battery EVs are not the solution. .Battery trucks....even more outlandish.I dont think that hydro will be able to provide the total energy we require.You are right though that the impact of evs here will be more useful than more fossil based electricicty production

You do like that John Key argument don't you - does your wife/ girlfriend get away with "but dear it is just one pair of shoes" ---  'it's the other 250 pairs in the wardrobe that are the problem and I can't change that' ??? 

Yes one car is a small emitter, so is one truck and one factory but shitloads of cars, trucks and factories all add up to  a sh*t load of emissions - electric cars are a solution for cars , electric trucks is a solution for trucks and Hydrogen is a solution for industry. It's all there and it all works and there are other options as well.

P.S note I refer to electric cars and trucks NOT battery - batteries are not the solution. 

Edited by 3pedals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/28/2017 at 11:10 AM, 3pedals said:

P.S note I refer to electric cars and trucks NOT battery - batteries are not the solution. 

Only due to moving goalposts via technological progression. Batteries are the current best solution in a growing number of use cases. BEVs are objectively a better environmental option compared to ICE cars provided both satisfy the desired use case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/28/2017 at 11:10 AM, 3pedals said:

You do like that John Key argument don't you - does your wife/ girlfriend get away with "but dear it is just one pair of shoes" ---  'it's the other 250 pairs in the wardrobe that are the problem and I can't change that' ??? 

Yes one car is a small emitter, so is one truck and one factory but shitloads of cars, trucks and factories all add up to  a sh*t load of emissions - electric cars are a solution for cars , electric trucks is a solution for trucks and Hydrogen is a solution for industry. It's all there and it all works and there are other options as well.

P.S note I refer to electric cars and trucks NOT battery - batteries are not the solution. 

please explain to me what you mean by "an electric car" if it isnt battery power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, kiwi535 said:

please explain to me what you mean by "an electric car" if it isnt battery power.

Hydrogen fuel cell. 

They produce an electrical charge by the hydrogen passing through the fuel cell, magical stuff with electrons happens when the gas combines with oxygen in the air, producing water (H2O) and the electric charge is harnessed.

It a beautiful system. Small battery + direct charge to the electric motors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Michael. said:

Hydrogen fuel cell. 

They produce an electrical charge by the hydrogen passing through the fuel cell, magical stuff with electrons happens when the gas combines with oxygen in the air, producing water (H2O) and the electric charge is harnessed.

It a beautiful system. Small battery + direct charge to the electric motors.

Ahh i know what a hydrogen fuel cell is but where do you get the hydrogen?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, kiwi535 said:

Ahh i know what a hydrogen fuel cell is but where do you get the hydrogen?

From BOC gas, in large bottles, easy.

Eventually, wait for gas stations to sell it like LPG.

Done! 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Michael. said:

From BOC gas, in large bottles, easy.

Eventually, wait for gas stations to sell it like LPG.

Done! 

Have you looked into energy required to produce hydrogen gas? It's not very economical currently. Not even remotely. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, huff3r said:

Have you looked into energy required to produce hydrogen gas? It's not very economical currently. Not even remotely. 

Meh oil companies will work it out when it's viable for them.

I bet it's no more difficult than making an oil platform, taking it 50km off the coast, sucking oil deep off the ocean floor, getting a huge oil tanker to take it back to a refinery for processing, then trucks or more tankers to transport it. They could just build their own small nuclear reactors for endless amounts of electricity to perform the procedures to extract hydrogen and bottle it. 

If they can produce it, distribute it and sell it when it's more cost effective than oil they will do it.

Do you really think they will sit back and watch less sales of oil take place while consumers plug in their battery cars to the electrical grid. Somehow I doubt that. They would rather them buy hydrogen!

Hydrogen is the only model that compares to diesel or petrol, giving constant output when being used (no performance or power drop like in battery cars as the battery goes lower and lower) and it would take a few minutes to fill up the gas tank, just like what people are used to today. 

The plug in and charge method is only going to suit a tiny tiny fraction of vehicle users out there, especially when rapid charge times are still at least 30 minutes and gives limited range. 

 

Edited by Michael.
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

at the moment hydrogen is a product of .(or byproduct of) oil refining....its a finite resource?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kiwi535 said:

at the moment hydrogen is a product of .(or byproduct of) oil refining....its a finite resource?

It is also produced by electrolosis of water, but the downside is it requires more energy to produce than the hydrogen holds. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, huff3r said:

It is also produced by electrolosis of water, but the downside is it requires more energy to produce than the hydrogen holds. 

I think that's irrelevant in some ways. A least the way a HFC car uses the hydrogen for electrical power can be extremely efficient, up to 80 percent of the fuel converted to electrical energy some studies have shown. It would still be a viable product to produce, bottle and sell given it's purposefulness.

Meanwhile the thermal efficiency of petrol cars is pretty poor, 20-30 percent usually. So it could be argue petrol cars are self defeating in that aspect of how much of the fuel they waste as heat. Yet, here we are well over 100 years later, still using them despite the lack of efficiency.

I wonder how efficient the production of lithium ion or iron batteries is when it comes down to the way they are produced, I guess it's not so applicable as they can't be used as a fuel, and only work when, coal power plants charge them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Michael. said:

I wonder how efficient the production of lithium ion or iron batteries is when it comes down to the way they are produced, I guess it's not so applicable as they can't be used as a fuel, and only work when, coal power plants charge them. 

Except for them countries that don't use coal, like New Zealand, for example... Or for all them countries phasing out coal because natural gas is so much cheaper...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Michael. said:

I think that's irrelevant in some ways. A least the way a HFC car uses the hydrogen for electrical power can be extremely efficient, up to 80 percent of the fuel converted to electrical energy some studies have shown. It would still be a viable product to produce, bottle and sell given it's purposefulness.

Meanwhile the thermal efficiency of petrol cars is pretty poor, 20-30 percent usually. So it could be argue petrol cars are self defeating in that aspect of how much of the fuel they waste as heat. Yet, here we are well over 100 years later, still using them despite the lack of efficiency.

I wonder how efficient the production of lithium ion or iron batteries is when it comes down to the way they are produced, I guess it's not so applicable as they can't be used as a fuel, and only work when, coal power plants charge them. 

Except fossil fuels even at that poor efficiency still provide far more energy than it takes to produce them.

Basically a hydrogen fuel cell is a poor performing, albeit cheap to manufacture, battery. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BMW had a hydrogen powered 7 series way back in 2000/1 when I was in Munich, it's quite amazing how little progress seems to have been made since then.

Hydrogen_BMW_750hL.JPG

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That hydrogen V12 E38 actually ran on the gas as a combustible fuel, lower power density so didn't really perform that well. Better off with LPG!

Was an interesting experiment though 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/1/2018 at 6:38 PM, huff3r said:

Except fossil fuels even at that poor efficiency still provide far more energy than it takes to produce them.

Basically a hydrogen fuel cell is a poor performing, albeit cheap to manufacture, battery. 

When you think about it, fossil fuels are also like a battery, just one which takes thousands of years to trickle charge, and has incredible power density at the expense of an incredibly high internal resistance.

Bingo. Not sure the JFM pixie converters are any cheaper or last any longer than current batteries do anyway.

Edited by tawa
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More home work needed you guys are trotting out last decades' excuses for science,

Hydrogen fuel cells are viable now, they are efficient and the hydrogen product costs are reasonable and facilities are scaleable.

Fossil fuels are not batteries because the use combustion to produce energy (heat)  - fuel cells use chemistry to produce electrons - vastly different 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Hydrogen fuel cells are viable now, they are efficient and the hydrogen product costs are reasonable and facilities are scaleable.

Hydrogen has been a commercially viable fuel for vehicles for over 40 years. (Obviously not the same as hydrogen fuel cells.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 3pedals said:

More home work needed you guys are trotting out last decades' excuses for science,

Hydrogen fuel cells are viable now, they are efficient and the hydrogen product costs are reasonable and facilities are scaleable.

Fossil fuels are not batteries because the use combustion to produce energy (heat)  - fuel cells use chemistry to produce electrons - vastly different 

75% on electrolysis init? Or have you got some updated numbers from this decade? Then about the same for electricity generated in a fuel cell. It's viable in the same way the horse and cart is viable, it works but has been superceded by better technology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, tawa said:

75% on electrolysis init? Or have you got some updated numbers from this decade? Then about the same for electricity generated in a fuel cell. It's viable in the same way the horse and cart is viable, it works but has been superceded by better technology.

Decent contribution please - yes there are losses in the conversions but also consider the full hydrocarbon extraction/ distillation and consumption process in an internal combustion engine or industrial heating system - same with battery storage - where do you source the electrons to fill the battery / Hydrocarbon powered generation ? thats not efficient or renewable. 

Hydrogen is the emerging energy / tehnology that is superceding batteries ( unless you believe Musk the battery maker ) 

 

 BTW the horse and cart is very viable - bio fuel in , about a horse power and some sh*t out - reasonable efficiency - 100% renewable 

 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, tawa said:

 it works but has been superceded by better technology.

What is a better tech than hydrogen fuel cell? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Decent contribution please - yes there are losses in the conversions but also consider the full hydrocarbon extraction/ distillation and consumption process in an internal combustion engine or industrial heating system - same with battery storage - where do you source the electrons to fill the battery / Hydrocarbon powered generation ? thats not efficient or renewable. 

Hydrogen is the emerging energy / tehnology that is superceding batteries ( unless you believe Musk the battery maker ) 

 

 BTW the horse and cart is very viable - bio fuel in , about a horse power and some sh*t out - reasonable efficiency - 100% renewable 

 

Please educate the ignorant as to how you will produce the hydrogen.Currently the vast bulk of hydrogen gas is produced as a by product of the petrochemical refining process.What is your scaleable hydrogen producer and how is the energy required for it produced?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Current hydrogen production is primarily for combustion as an alternative for low grade fossil fuels - it reduces service costs and is less polluting- it does use the cheap and dirty hydrocarbon based process.

Hydrogen from the electrolysis process can compete currently with medium grade / high grade fossil fuels in specific applications including transport. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's a pointless argument at this stage, you can buy an electric car and use it now, you can't buy a hydrogen car at the moment and use it.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now