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shizam

Diesel programming

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Hey.

Anybody know who is good for diesel remapping? I don't want to map the car yet but I want to program out the EGR system.

From what I understand, you need to adjust a few things....not just delete the CEL that comes up. ECU adjusts injection timing when it thinks EGR is active etc.

I would like to do this properly if I can find a good shop.

Any suggestions?

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Yes I can help. Will message you 

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On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:08 AM, shizam said:

Anybody know who is good for diesel remapping? I don't want to map the car yet but I want to program out the EGR system.

As much as I am not a big fan of and EGR system on a diesel engine, a system designed to improve test results in a laboratory but utterly crap in real-life application, I am even less of a fan of diesel remapping. Yes, it is very simple to get more power and even better fuel efficiency out of a diesel engine from a simple re-writing of the chip, the reason that the manufacturers didn't do that in the first place (you'd think they would if it was that simple right...) was to meet the emissions regulations.

The whole injection cycle is carefully set to minimise a number of harmful emissions, not just the headline CO2 which everyone seems hung up on. EGR was originally developed to reduce Hydro-carbon (HC) emissions by recirculating un-burnt fuel, and had the side-effect of helping control the flame front and keep oxides of nitrogen (NOx) emissions down. Removing an EGR system completely and remapping will result in both of these emissions going off the chart. Technically removal of any emissions control system in NZ should cause the vehicle to fail a Warrant of Fitness test, now currently it is most likely you would get picked up on the fact that your car has no EGR and a re-map, but the planned future changes to emissions testing would probably make that evident.

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Agree with Jon on most of this, the EGR valve is designed to be part of the fuel  supply / combustion control and modern ones work well, but they like any other moving part do need to be maintained / replaced, the earlier systems  were crap current ones are effective. There are lots of myths out there about the issues with them and they mainly relate to older style systems. 

In regard to the re-mapping of diesels this can be beneficial BMW  have demonstarted this , the N57 properly remapped drops emissions and fuel consumption by 11-15% and produces a similar improvement in torque. 

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the egr valve itself is pretty foolproof ,one of the probems is that the intake manifold can become cloogged with oily soot like deposits.I beleive this will be more likely with short run vehicles

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11 hours ago, kiwi535 said:

the egr valve itself is pretty foolproof ,one of the probems is that the intake manifold can become cloogged with oily soot like deposits.I beleive this will be more likely with short run vehicles

EGR is far from foolproof, they are mechanical. Get stuck from carbon build up, have internal gear damage as well as electrical. Often $1,000's to replace with a new one (not all cases).

 

Even hot running vehicles suffer it just as bad. With direct injection engines its much worse as nothing washes the valves (petrol and diesel)

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It would be pretty old technology if it was a diesel and it WASN'T direct injection, I think the old IDI engines died out in everything apart from tractors in about 1990! Nowhere near efficient enough to meet the later emissions standards. And come to think about it even IDI engines still injected into the cylinder head AFTER the inlet, just into a seperate smaller chamber to start the iginition, so that would stil be a direct injection under the newer definition.

Harder to clean yes, but not impossible.

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On 11/23/2017 at 9:09 AM, HaNs said:

EGR is far from foolproof, they are mechanical. Get stuck from carbon build up, have internal gear damage as well as electrical. Often $1,000's to replace with a new one (not all cases).

 

Even hot running vehicles suffer it just as bad. With direct injection engines its much worse as nothing washes the valves (petrol and diesel)

i didnt say bulletproof I said foolproof.Ie it is an open and close valve its operation or not is not diffcult or complex to diagnose.

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@shizamdid you ever get this done OP? Looking at similar solution in Auckland for 335d (haven't purchased it yet, wanna budget the costs in to my purchase so i know what im up for) . would like to get def, egr and dpf delete along with proper retune

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On 6/2/2018 at 3:15 PM, BatmanMW said:

@shizamdid you ever get this done OP? Looking at similar solution in Auckland for 335d (haven't purchased it yet, wanna budget the costs in to my purchase so i know what im up for) . would like to get def, egr and dpf delete along with proper retune

talk to Joe at EuroItalian EuroSurgeon, he has done plenty of them, and has a 335d as his daily.

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correct, eurosurgeon,

not EuroItalian, which is Gavins business i was recommending to a friend for some other bits and pieces ha.

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thanks guys, will have a chat with Joe about it also. it's a bit wierd but i'm really having a hard time choosing between a 123d and 335d at the moment. main reason for moving to diesel was fuel economy issues with my commute but with 123d being 10k+ cheaper than the 335d, it provides a fair sum of budget for modifications / tuning work which i'd inevitably do on either car.

 

what is the general consensus here on egr/ dpf removal/disabling? has anyone ever had theirs emission tested ? im slightly worried about impact to wof but more so whether i'd then be driving around spreading ridiculous toxic emissions.

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Talk to Joe

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Do your home work have been down petrol and diesel road also. By the time you add in the ruc charges etc the over all cost of your diesel vehicle is very near that of a petrol one. HP comes at a cost with the mods you have mentioned the end result could be a quick car but at a high fuel usage rate. Also with the cost of fuel on the rise again and come July Auckland is getting hit with a 10 cents a ltr extra to solve your traffic whooos I believe. 

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On 6/2/2018 at 3:15 PM, BatmanMW said:

@shizamdid you ever get this done OP? Looking at similar solution in Auckland for 335d (haven't purchased it yet, wanna budget the costs in to my purchase so i know what im up for) . would like to get def, egr and dpf delete along with proper retune

Fixed that for ya:   'Hey yeah, I want to [delete def, egr and dpf] make my car into a toxic emmitter that will kill my neighbours, friends, and family with the products of its tailpipe!  Who can I get to make my BMW worse than any VW Diesel ever?  I want to disable all of the emissions systems that were so carefully engineered into my BMW at great time and expense, and make it more like a 1970's truck.'  🙄

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56 minutes ago, allan said:

Do your home work have been down petrol and diesel road also. By the time you add in the ruc charges etc the over all cost of your diesel vehicle is very near that of a petrol one. HP comes at a cost with the mods you have mentioned the end result could be a quick car but at a high fuel usage rate. Also with the cost of fuel on the rise again and come July Auckland is getting hit with a 10 cents a ltr extra to solve your traffic whooos I believe. 

i'm open to this discussion and suggestions around alternate performing petrol cars, especially since you've already been down this road.  have heard fair few people say this but based on my rough calculations i can't seem to figure out how petrol supposedly comes out cheaper, but maybe i'm missing something which i'd be interested to hear as have never owned diesel vehicle before.

what i was looking at is in my price range in 'eco' vehicles, there is no such decent horsepower petrol car and so diesel almost wins by default as though it wont offer high hp, it offers atleast torque which can feel nice even though doesn't equate to moving you quickly. yes the rising fuel prices are indeed a concern and may not end up doing too many performance mods (if any at all) as a result especially if impacts emissions by heaps. have asked Joe about that for research purposes and overall budget reasons.

 

@Olaf thanks for keeping me in check, my concerns are exactly that, hence asking around about it and if anyone has actual measured emissions numbers on record. not super keen to be spitting poison out my car so absolutely agree if those are legit concerns then won't be removing from my vehicle just for minor gains in power.

 

in terms of the maths, just measuring them all based on 50L tank for range for sake of simplicity. when i see below, i see that by owning an eco diesel over the next 4 years vs my just sold car or something almost as thirsty (like the 335i), i can save an extra 10k over that period (which to me equates as 1-2 weeks of extra overseas holiday in every year in real terms, or just faster paid off mortgate).

 

for example a 123d would comfortably get about 1000km to a 50L tank @ 5L/100km = 50x1.29 per litre = 64.50 + RUC @ 62 per 100km = total 126.50 for 1000km.

  • $0.1265 per km which I think rivals hybrids?
  • average yearly milage about 9,000 km = $1138.50 fuel cost including RUC.
  • fuel over approx 4 years of ownership (average time i expect to own car for) $4554

335d at 8L/100km , 625km to a 50L tank of diesel + RUC = 126.50,

  • $0.20 per km.
  • average yearly fuel cost inc ruc 1800
  • 4 year fuel cost 7200

my old car at 19L/100km average 260km from 50L tank x 2.26 per litre = $113  (may as well live at the petrol station right? lol)

  • $0.43 per km.
  • 3870 yearly fuel
  • 4 year fuel cost 15480

bmw 135i at 9.6L/100km, which i'd only use 98 petrol on, 520km out of 50L tank (though i do find it hard to beleive..)

  • $0.22 per km
  • 1980 yearly fuel cost
  • $7920 4 year fuel cost

bmw 335i 15L/100km, 330km (wouldn't buy this car for fuel economy because its fun car but included for sake of comparison)

  • $0.34 per km
  • $3081 per year
  • $12,327 per year

 

when you add the cents per litre argument in to the mix, it just favours small diesel like 123d even more because the kilometres per litre is superior. i know that i might be bias or have some tunnelvision here so open to suggestions in flaws in calculations. the most obvious flaw i see is that i'm comparing my old cars actual measured value over 2 year period ( i used fuelly) vs figures for the other cars which i found online, which is really bias against my old car (hey it helped me move on :P) and favors all the newer ones.

 

my other factor is that because of increasing price with my car i do tend to borrow more boring eco/diesel cars for longer road trips , id much rather drive my own - something i enjoy etc. so if i get a car that handles okay and still eco then my driven k's would go up by maybe another 2000km per year (so not just mainly commute) which would again favor diesel a lot more.

 

 

edit : really sorry for thread jacking. i wonder if this discussion should be moved to my topic here. thanks for contributions so far, it's really good to have other peoples perspectives. 

 

i should also state that currently being quite frugal i was taking the bus for the past 14 months or so. this means sacrificing approx 3 extra hours (vs driving in) of my personal time each day. that bus service costs me $2200 a year using the discounted price via AT card. if my math is right about the 123d then i'm saving about $1061.50 on driving vs bus which goes a significant way towards paying for parking

 

Edited by BatmanMW
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I think your 15.5l/100 for a 335i is incorrect.  

I did a spreadsheet last year when I was about to buy a diesel, comparing a number of six cylinder petrol BMWs (my e46 325i, 530i and 545i e60), and diesel (e60 530d, 535d)... the diesels won on overall cost (fuel consumtption and RUC only), though only over 15,000kms (from memory), and then the higher servicing costs and higher cost of entry for diesel negated a lot of it.    I ran a spread of cost-per-litre into the spreadsheet as well, though I don't think I had bet on the cost of petrol hitting $2.75!  Suggest you take extra-urban consumption, rather than range-based, as the source of your data - you get skewed by size of tank.  Hope that helps.

As it happens, I'm still 'driving for free' in the second year of fuel consumption and servicing on the 545i I bought, compared with the 535D ///M that I almost bought!

PS - thank you for your reasoned and polite response to my somewhat sarcastic dig at disabling emission control systems!

Edited by Olaf
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2 minutes ago, Olaf said:

I think your 15.5l/100 for a 335i is incorrect.  

I did a spreadsheet last year when I was about to buy a diesel, comparing a number of six cylinder petrol BMWs (my e46 325i, 530i and 545i e60), and diesel (e60 530d, 535d)... the diesels won on overall cost though only over 15,000kms (from memory), and then the higher servicing costs and higher cost of entry for diesel negated a lot of it.    I ran a spread of cost-per-litre into the spreadsheet as well, though I don't think I had bet on the cost of petrol hitting $2.75!  Suggest you take extra-urban consumption, rather than range-based, as the source of your data - you get skewed by size of tank.  Hope that helps.

As it happens, I'm still 'driving for free' in the second year of fuel consumption and servicing on the 545i I bought, compared with the 535D ///M that I almost bought! 

PS - thank you for your reasoned and polite response to my somewhat sarcastic dig at disabling emission control systems!

no it's really okay, we need people in society to be very straight forward about issues like this. after all i'm sure we all love NZ and a good part of why the country is so great is that it still has a relatively clean/green image which can easily be destroyed if we just prioritized our own needs over the overall good.

 

if anyone does have spreadsheet of real data i'd be keen to see it. i should probably start a fuel consumption thread as i did back in clubsub haha. if there's a chance i can pay not much extra and drive a fun high revving petrol car with decent average commute cost then you can bet i will do this - nothing against diesel at all! :) i don't mind paying the extra when i'm driving hard as that is well warranted and in that occasion i deal in smiles per gallon, it's mainly the city driving in traffic / motorway driving at 70-110kph efficiency that i really need.

 

is it still true about the higher servicing costs on diesels? anything specific to look out for? i thought all these modern ones have relatively similar service schedules and maint costs. i've never personally known anyone at all to own a diesel so just judging based on what i've read online which i hope is not misleading, but y'know theres so much misinformation out there!

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5 hours ago, BatmanMW said:

i should also state that currently being quite frugal i was taking the bus for the past 14 months or so. this means sacrificing approx 3 extra hours (vs driving in) of my personal time each day. that bus service costs me $2200 a year using the discounted price via AT card. if my math is right about the 123d then i'm saving about $1061.50 on driving vs bus which goes a significant way towards paying for parking

 

The problem is indeed whether your figures are accurate for the bmws especially the 123d, doesn't take much to skew it over a year. Gobsmacked that the bus works out dearer,  Although your not including, things like parking, tyres repairs and depreciation of a car

3hours a day when buses are supposed to  have special lanes, you sir, deserve a medal

 

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5 hours ago, BatmanMW said:

is it still true about the higher servicing costs on diesels? anything specific to look out for? i thought all these modern ones have relatively similar service schedules and maint costs. i've never personally known anyone at all to own a diesel so just judging based on what i've read online which i hope is not misleading, but y'know theres so much misinformation out there!

diesels - more frequent services, filters more pricey.  Compare 530D/535D air filter with 530/545 Air Filter, for a start.  I think oil capacity in the diesel is about the same... though recommended change interval is shorter.  I'm sure someone more knowlegable than me will pour on some real figures...   

@*Glenn*, what are your thoughts on real-world servicing costs of a diesel vs petrol, using e60 as the baseline?

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As you are in the looking stage see if you can talk to owners of the various cars you are interested in.This might give you a better understanding of what their actually fuel usage is. The ltr/per 100 figures quoted by dealerships are a guide but in real life motoring are not always obtainable.Check the tank sizes of these vehicles as they may bedifferent from what one thinks resulting in wrong answers to fuel economy. A little time spent now can save for disappointment later on. 

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4 hours ago, kwhelan said:

The problem is indeed whether your figures are accurate for the bmws especially the 123d, doesn't take much to skew it over a year. Gobsmacked that the bus works out dearer,  Although your not including, things like parking, tyres repairs and depreciation of a car

3hours a day when buses are supposed to  have special lanes, you sir, deserve a medal

 

yep that's one of those only in auckland issues i guess re. public transport working out to be more expensive than driving in. also the bus lanes are a lie, my areas bus was in news some time ago as it's one of the few 'express' bus suffers from taking longer than normal bus due to being stuck on motorway.. ;) i agree it's not right to compare it like that without including other car related costs but ultimately my decision is made that i'll drive in and no longer bus in so just looking to reduce my commute cost as much as possible.. it's one of those initatives i really wanted to beleive in about auckland transport but i'd rather drive and save myself 3 hrs a day as felt like i was missing out on so much of my personal time after work.

 

agreed doesn't take much to skew it, overall the real data i found on fuelly based on users who have done 100+ fillups each logged about 6.6L/100km average which is not as eco as the stated 5L/100km for the 123d. this makes it $365 more than my calculated value but the offset for all the cars would be about the same as they're all in real world not as cheap per 100km than stated as their test is constant speed on highway with mild acceleration. since any given manufacturer would measure their own cars to the same standards, using this data for my personal calculations provides a good baseline for comparison (well thats my theory) given i'm trying to find the most suitable deal for me within the BMW line of vehicles.

 

what's fairly funny is how a wide range of bmws performance vehicles are quite a lot more efficient than i would have previously assumed. for example you can see vitz here http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/vitz

vitz 2009 average 7.6L/100km.. albiet with cheaper 91 so maybe the maths offset isn't as bad when you turn it in to $ per km, but given how slow a car that is i would have expected significantly better.

2009 123d at 6.7L/100km average. http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/123d

and finally 335i seems not that far off , however it is using premium fuel so won't work out economical choice for me anyway  http://www.fuelly.com/car/bmw/335i

 

2 hours ago, allan said:

As you are in the looking stage see if you can talk to owners of the various cars you are interested in.This might give you a better understanding of what their actually fuel usage is. The ltr/per 100 figures quoted by dealerships are a guide but in real life motoring are not always obtainable.Check the tank sizes of these vehicles as they may bedifferent from what one thinks resulting in wrong answers to fuel economy. A little time spent now can save for disappointment later on. 

yup still waiting to hear back from Joe but i've almost ruled out the 335d now. given the target audience of bmw is usually performance (i was attracted for same reason), it's not that easy as it seems to find people willingly talking about owning a diesel haha, not even online. their tank sizes are different but in my calculations i done the maths based off 50L of fuel preceisely rather than each cars individual tank range as that would introduce additional variables.

Edited by BatmanMW

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Depends on the driving you do, but open road I would expect the 335i to be doing around 7-9l/100km.  Our 535i gets about 8l/100 on the open road and it's a lot heavier.  In town it's still around 9-11l/100km.

I also think the 123d will be closer to 6-7/100.

There musta been something up with your Subaru if it was at 19/100.  I would hammer on my TT Legacy and get 12-13 at the worst and usually around 10 in town.

Anyway, give the 335i a drive.

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4 hours ago, GorGasm said:

Depends on the driving you do, but open road I would expect the 335i to be doing around 7-9l/100km.  Our 535i gets about 8l/100 on the open road and it's a lot heavier.  In town it's still around 9-11l/100km.

I also think the 123d will be closer to 6-7/100.

There musta been something up with your Subaru if it was at 19/100.  I would hammer on my TT Legacy and get 12-13 at the worst and usually around 10 in town.

Anyway, give the 335i a drive.

that's really funny you say that because i just had a really weird brain wave when i woke up this morning along same lines haha. i really must seem all over the place - deep down inside i'm still very resistant and fighting the eco urge, i still got that desire for true enthusiast car and finding it hard to resist bmw inline 6 goodness before i settle down.

 

early morning 'lightbulb moment' went something like this.

"hmm there is no way i could go back to a car that has half the power of what i've been used to driving with for so long such as the 123d. 335i are really cheap up front cost these days, compared to for example the 335d it's 10k cheaper and with less k's on it so.. the lower up front cost might actually offset the extra in fuel. the lower k's may mean less $$ spent on maintenance over my time of ownership and because i'm spending less up front, i'm also not standing to lose as much in depreciation." (kinda sounds like an addict trying to justify going back to whatever he quit :P)

 

in my recent research some of the bigger downsides of diesel vehicles seem to be that the ones in my budget (15-20k) are higher in the odometer so being a good citizen who has decided against dpf removal, i'm very likely to be spending a great deal in DPF replacement soon after getting a diesel car which further chips away at my petrol savings. this all relates back to what @Olaf was saying about higher cost of entry / higher servicing cost of diesels negating the potential savings.

 

have heard great things about the 335i and the direct point injection in terms of how efficient it can be (among obviously the many other awesome benefits of that car which i just know i'll fall in love with!) . there are mixed reviews about economy, in theory if it gets average of around 10L/100km then I'm potentially still doing ok as long as car is not a lemon. will see what i can sort in the way of test drives this weekend and see if any particular vehicle sways me one way or the other.

 

the old Subaru was just very highly tuned (240wkw out of stock 2L 4 cyl engine that was up to 180k and almost 20 yrs old) , very old and because it had an old school style of power (big laggy turbo) i had to rev it up to 5k to get that big turbo hit (the car enthusiasts dopamine fix) to really get any fun out of it so my driving style didn't help me there. it was just dead anywhere without boost, in hindsight the stock turbo would have been better left untampered with but i was just chasing power back then. one of the biggest things i'm looking forward to on the Bimmers is how much earlier those turbos spool up.

 

currently this ones got my interest but its jap imported so no full service history https://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=1659845014

Edited by BatmanMW

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