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Benji335i

N54 rebuild who’s the best?

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Depending on year, they are all forged, and those that are not use cast hypereutectic pistons. 

Just be done with it and go vtec. 

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Hilarious thread so far. If you want that HP then an early n54 will have a forged crank and forged rods and hyperutectic pistons. I would add forged pistons and perhaps look at how the head is attached, gaskets, studs etc. In the US the tuning market is far more evolved than it is here and depending on the builder and the engine the HP advertised is possible. However getting 600 hp from a 3l engine will require massive amonts of boost and the engine will likely never be bullet proof. Factory supercars  dont operate at this level and while I have no doubt it can be done its going to be a highly strung engine. You will of course need new turbos and loads of other parts and your driveline will become a weakpoint. That said get on a US forum find the guys who have done it and up the limit on your credit card. 

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at which point wouldn't you be better off buying an M3 of a later generation? unless you have a love affair with you particular car.

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15 hours ago, _ethrty-Andy_ said:

at which point wouldn't you be better off buying an M3 of a later generation? unless you have a love affair with you particular car.

I have a love affair buddy!! 

Plus I want to use what I got, if I were to buy I would want an M4 but this modding plus the value of my car wouldn’t amount to an M4

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Why piss about with a measly 600 -- Go hard or go home-  strap two of these on your stock engine - don't worry about all the internal sh*t:  cranks and pistons, just replace the entire motor every 5 minutes - will last longer in traffic and in the garage. 

 

silly turbo.PNG

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3 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Why piss about with a measly 600 -- Go hard or go home-  strap two of these on your stock engine - don't worry about all the internal sh*t:  cranks and pistons, just replace the entire motor every 5 minutes - will last longer in traffic and in the garage. 

 

silly turbo.PNG

If you’re not going to be helpful, f**k off. Tbh you come across as a middle aged prick, fed up of asking this forum for advice if some of you are going to be no help or give me pointless and unecessary advice. 

 

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What's your budget?  This will limit what you can do.

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Tuned to 600hp you will have issues even if everything is forged.  Drive train, additional fuel supply, all the other additional parts.  These cars throw many problems at you when stock. If you want trouble free motoring, a 600hp n54 wouldn't be it.  

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12 hours ago, GorGasm said:

What's your budget?  This will limit what you can do.

Taking it each step at a time, was thinking max 10-15k

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7 minutes ago, Stevie S said:

Tuned to 600hp you will have issues even if everything is forged.  Drive train, additional fuel supply, all the other additional parts.  These cars throw many problems at you when stock. If you want trouble free motoring, a 600hp n54 wouldn't be it.  

Fueling wise I’ll be getting the fuel it stage 4 LPFP and port injection. A lot of the Americans don’t seem to have issues 

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22 hours ago, Benji335i said:

If you’re not going to be helpful, f**k off. Tbh you come across as a middle aged prick, fed up of asking this forum for advice if some of you are going to be no help or give me pointless and unecessary advice. 

 

I'll take that as a compliment - i'll leave you to answering your own mindnumbingly stupid questions  ( just like Donald does) while I focus on my latest engine build 

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3 minutes ago, 3pedals said:

I'll take that as a compliment - i'll leave you to answering your own mindnumbingly stupid questions  ( just like Donald does) while I focus on my latest engine build 

In all honesty they weren’t stupid mind dumbing questions, I was merely after advice and pointers in the right direction due to tuning not being my strong point, and your we’re just being a patronising unhelpful arse hole. You do that and all the best. 

Some ppl here have helped but other forums have been so much more. It’s a shame, I thought forums are meant to bring people together who share the same passion, obviously not this one. 

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I see you have met our resident Forum Troll and made friends. How nice. Don't feed him, it only encourages... otherwise, "Ron gunna Ron". Be warned it may take a while for him to realise you are serious now he is on a roll. He is capable of sharing genuinely useful information and ideas (no really) if you are prepared to stop being butthurt and engage intelligently with him. He may even draw you a spreadsheet!

Good luck.

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I say do it build a 600hp engine and then give the middle finger to the Trolls. I know it can be done but as mentioned you will have to beef up the driveline. If you have an early 335i you should have the large diff and that will probably be ok as long as you dont hammer it off the line. That said getting off the line will be tricky, at around 400hp I am already struggling to hook up. I dont know how strong the manual boxes are but the auto will likely reach its torque limit pretty quicly. Nispro in Australia were working on beefed up internals for the ZF box and the have experience here doing similar work on the bigger ZF box that sits behind the excellent Aussie Barra Turbo engine. N54s run warm so look at better options for the radiator and oil cooler/s. New rear sub frame mounts would also be wortwhile.

 

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1 hour ago, Young Thrash Driver said:

I see you have met our resident Forum Troll and made friends. How nice. Don't feed him, it only encourages... otherwise, "Ron gunna Ron". Be warned it may take a while for him to realise you are serious now he is on a roll. He is capable of sharing genuinely useful information and ideas (no really) if you are prepared to stop being butthurt and engage intelligently with him. He may even draw you a spreadsheet!

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice mate, I will gladly engage intelligent with him but he needs to stop being some what of an arse hole, and I thought it was just the poms (I am one) that we’re those haha! 

Anyway i am serious about this build so I’ll keep the ones that are genuinely interested in the loop.

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41 minutes ago, Herbmiester said:

I say do it build a 600hp engine and then give the middle finger to the Trolls. I know it can be done but as mentioned you will have to beef up the driveline. If you have an early 335i you should have the large diff and that will probably be ok as long as you dont hammer it off the line. That said getting off the line will be tricky, at around 400hp I am already struggling to hook up. I dont know how strong the manual boxes are but the auto will likely reach its torque limit pretty quicly. Nispro in Australia were working on beefed up internals for the ZF box and the have experience here doing similar work on the bigger ZF box that sits behind the excellent Aussie Barra Turbo engine. N54s run warm so look at better options for the radiator and oil cooler/s. New rear sub frame mounts would also be wortwhile.

 

Thank you for being positive and taking me seriously mate. 

I aim to beef up everything tbh, it will be done in stages, I have been taking the chassis into account driveshaft and diff.

supposedly my trans will handle it, I have a 2009 DCT.

i have a list of mods half of which I have. 

Currently I’ve looked at internals, twin turbo set up, fueling too! 

If anyone knows does the 335i have an LSD (and no for the smart arses not acid) 

thanks again 

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We ran a 470 kW turbo'd 3.1 litre engine in the 80's with basic analogue control so getting the power out of the engine isn't the issue - how you go about it and what you actually achieve is. 

How you ask the questions and what you actually want to get out of the project is what counts and to do that you need to understand the engineeering principles and then test what is being suggested against those principles. 

for example:

I am looking at a project involving a 1980's 2 litre 8 valve which churns out a respectable 96kW at 5,700 RPM and 167Nm @ 3,300 RPM 

  • The popular U.S route is to slap on large carbs, increase jet sizes,  fit cams that run12mm of lift and high compression pistons that are heavier than the original. 
  • The European route is to increase choke sizes, reduce jet sizes, run 11mm of lift  and run high compression pistons that are lighter 

The U.S version produces around 131kW at 7,000 RPM - 165Nm at 5,200 RPM and idles at 1500RPM,   guzzles at the rate of 17 litres/100k and it overheats regularly --  the Euro route produces 136kW @ 6,500 and  176Nm @ 4,400  RPM and idles at 900RPM sips 12l/100k and runs at normal temp- so more power , more efficiently over a wider power range and it produces less heat. 

I want to create a quick for its type road car that will also hold it's own on the track so I will follow  the Euro route with a few variantions of my own and plan to get 131kW at 6,500 RPM and 176Nm at 3,900 RPM.

There are plenty of Europeans getting very decent power out of the N54 but finding them in the sea of internet dross is the challenge (and the skill) 

 

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P.S a  fact for you GS7D36SG (DCT gearbox fitted to your car) is factory rated at 520Nm max  so find out what sort of torque your build will produce and you will know if it will handle it. 

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As I said before, by all means prove me wrong with a project log, dyno runs and maintenance log once it's done.

 

Personally, I don't think you (or anyone else) can reliably achieve 600+ rwhp (700 + crank) from that motor, but give it a go if you think it's achievable. Me, I think you'll need a miracle from the Bishop.

 

If you do get there, based on the torque figure above, your DCT will be under major stress.

 

I would also think you'd go single turbo, but that's just me. 

 

If you get there (reliably), I'll buy you a beer.

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13 minutes ago, Palazzo said:

As I said before, by all means prove me wrong with a project log, dyno runs and maintenance log once it's done.

 

Personally, I don't think you (or anyone else) can reliably achieve 600+ rwhp (700 + crank) from that motor, but give it a go if you think it's achievable. Me, I think you'll need a miracle from the Bishop.

 

If you do get there, based on the torque figure above, your DCT will be under major stress.

 

I would also think you'd go single turbo, but that's just me. 

 

If you get there (reliably), I'll buy you a beer.

For that funny number  or about 450kW at the wheels assuming 18% drive train loss  and max power at 7,000 RPM torque at the flywheel needs to be 750Nm so thats a hand grenade. 

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1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

P.S a  fact for you GS7D36SG (DCT gearbox fitted to your car) is factory rated at 520Nm max  so find out what sort of torque your build will produce and you will know if it will handle it. 

I plan to do this properly and focus on the whole package not just the power output. 

The 520NM is the conservative figure set my Getrag.  However  that figure is off what a company website says that doesnt want to be liable for miss leading or miss representing its product. So instead they under rate it. Im sure no one at bmw would say the n54 is rated for 700whp but it can certainly do it.

i will upgrade the TCU software which I have already done and I’ll be getting SSP gaskets, filter and clutch pack. 

The gearbox is identical to the new M3 and M4 and can handle there power output....

anyway this build won’t be rushed will be done properly with no short cuts!!

 

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5 hours ago, Benji335i said:

 

If anyone knows does the 335i have an LSD (and no for the smart arses not acid) 

 

No LSD on anything but M cars in the "Modern" BMWs. It'll be one tyre fire e diff. Its crazy, but one of the things BMW use to differentiate regular cars to the M cars.  

Birds quaife diffs seem like the best option. 

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Don't forget engine management systems. If you're going to get up to 600hp then a lot of that is going to be as a result of compressed air so you'll need a sophisticated engine management system that has boost management with infinitely variable ramp settings and fine wastegate control. Think about how you're going to manage traction and launch control as well.

Water injection should be considered to help eliminate detonation.

Intercooler efficiency and auxiliary cooling for that are also worth thinking about, it's going to get real hot under there at these levels and you need to maintain density.

I have no idea about the engine itself but I agree with recent comments; make sure all the loaded elements are forged and all the friction elements are coated, use the highest grade fixtures, gaskets and rings available.

Can you bore or stroke these? That might actually be a good way to start if you can.

However you proceed I'd like to see it.

 

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Here's a quote I got for a complete exchange diff with a Quaife lsd installed for my car a while ago from Birds in the UK. You get the exchange surcharge back once they receive your stock Diff in return.

2018-01-22_09-48-22

 

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35 minutes ago, M3AN said:

Don't forget engine management systems. If you're going to get up to 600hp then a lot of that is going to be as a result of compressed air so you'll need a sophisticated engine management system that has boost management with infinitely variable ramp settings and fine wastegate control. Think about how you're going to manage traction and launch control as well.

Water injection should be considered to help eliminate detonation.

Intercooler efficiency and auxiliary cooling for that are also worth thinking about, it's going to get real hot under there at these levels and you need to maintain density.

I have no idea about the engine itself but I agree with recent comments; make sure all the loaded elements are forged and all the friction elements are coated, use the highest grade fixtures, gaskets and rings available.

Can you bore or stroke these? That might actually be a good way to start if you can.

However you proceed I'd like to see it.

 

ECU will be custom tuned, incorporating all my mods.

i already have:

Catless downpipes

7” FMIC

Charge pipe

bmw P exhaust 

oil catch can 

oil cooler valve 

updated PCV and cap

Latest Bmw injectors 

delphi ignition coil kit 

2 step spark plugs 

drive belt kit

1st step is to forge what I have

Then I will deal with ge chassis, drivetrain, diff and trans. 

Lastly is the turbo kit with necessary fueling.

Appreciate the advice and guidance. 

 

 

 

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