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kwhelan

Road Toll Not working

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4 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

What is going on in Waikato? How can there be more road deaths there than anywhere else, even Auckland.

wondered the same,

Im also guessing NZ car base contains a larger section of older poorly maintained vehicles than europe, and we seem to have a larger collection of uneducated drivers, We constantly have people stopped around here with kids not belted in.

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To those who have posted on this subject my i ask do you know how you would react in a accident pending situation, freeze or react. One would hope to react but how do you know how it will unfold for you. This by simple having gone through it all before and experiencing it  ie loosing control car goes side ways. What do you do until you have experienced this you have no idea what so ever other than feet off the pedals turn the wheel into the slide and correct the slide.This coming from a book or instructor so if you have never had it happen before how do you know how i t will unfold. Their will be no quick solution to this problem and people will continue to have accidents  my hope is that the powers to be will increase the amount of time in practical driving situations with the use of simulators or the like. Road improvements would help but it is only one of a number of issues concerning this problem. 

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having spent the morning at my local shopping centre i'm surprised the road toll is as low as it is. The simply art of parking a car was painful to watch.

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@Allan, yes good point, how you react at the initial point of loss of control (which I think is what 3Pedals was on about car control) can have a great effect on the outcome of the situation. The only way to train this is on something like a skid pan, or closed track, etc. Even simple things like being able to steer whilst heavy braking through the use of ABS is alien to very many people - ever noticed how many trees or power poles manage to hit smack in the middle of a bonnet?
Continuted driver education is a huge plus, as are things like "Defensive driving" or "advanced driver training" courses, perhaps these could be either subsidised by the government or even made compulsory though insurance companies?

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The Waikato has always been over-represented in accident stats as does Northland , why ? two primary reasons:

  1. Stupidity and gross negiligence when it comes to applying basic road rules like keeping in ones own lane and passing safely etc. 
  2. unsafe operation of vehicles ( sh*t tyres , overloading and not using basic safety devices like seatbelts and stoned and or drunk )   

Allan its not just about loss of control the driving I see on a daily basis clearly demonstrates that a large number of people  never get to the point of actually having control from the monent the car starts moving. They simply have no idea of what they should be doing and certainly cannot relate it to,or adapt it to what might be around them or going on around them. 

It's not about advanced driver training, the basic standard is WAAAAY too low  

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Much of my daily journey is through north Waikato, and I agree, Friday evenings are bad. Drunk/Stoned drivers all over the place. Ive *555'd and followed three of them, who were really bad (public road pinball..) for a few km while giving details to the cops, cops never catch them (and if they turn up the next day at the persons house, have no proof they were driving while shitfaced) 

 

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look how many are driving on a restricted having never bothered to actually pay to do the final or don't even have a license, laws needs some teeth or cops are losing before they start

Aus is way tougher

Edited by kwhelan

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Having a full license doesn't prove much. I was on my restricted for awhile because i had no use for a full license.  

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15 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Having a full license doesn't prove much. I was on my restricted for awhile because i had no use for a full license.  

The restricted licenece is not intended to be a "valid licence" it is only a transitional licence to enable you to develop your skill set and obtain a full licence. 

 Your attitude is part of the problem and one that appears to be commonplace in the Waikato andother areas  - thats why they put a time limit on learners and restricted lcenecs but it should be a LOT tougher - if you are not prepared to put in the effort take public transport and get off the roads.  

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1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

... if you are not prepared to put in the effort take public transport and get off the roads.  

That's another part of the problem.
There is no public transport outside Hamilton.

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1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

The restricted licenece is not intended to be a "valid licence" it is only a transitional licence to enable you to develop your skill set and obtain a full licence. 

 Your attitude is part of the problem and one that appears to be commonplace in the Waikato andother areas  - thats why they put a time limit on learners and restricted lcenecs but it should be a LOT tougher - if you are not prepared to put in the effort take public transport and get off the roads.  

Waikato and other areas... right, and most of South Auckland are driving around on learners eh. People who drive around with no learners and no license don't care about it or the penalties (harsh or not), same with having wof\reg etc etc. I think i know what your solution would be. 

How's me being on a restricted for a little longer affecting road safety as opposed to having a full? Being old you know most of your generations full license consisted of doing jack sh*t compared to what it takes today. The test between restricted has hardly any practical benefit to being a better driver, time in the seat is what's suppose to do that .The main reason i see the restricted license existing is to discourage teenagers driving around with mates at nights etc upon first getting their own car. Restricted be automatically upgraded on a full after a certain period like i think it is in Aus?

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It probably doesn't affect road safety in your case and yes the last test only really picks up a few learned bad habits but the attitude does, Ron is bang on with that.play the game or get off the road, hold insurance or get off the road,Its like holding a loaded gun and you either take it seriously or don't drive.Those people who you rightly say drive around with no license and don't care about it or the penalties would get a much ruder awakening in Aus when they get caught. here you can run up thousands in fines and its just a joke to a 20 yr old. Crusher Collins needs to take charge, get un worthy vehicles off the road, really penalise people and the others out there will gradually take the whole thing more seriously 

Like in Aus get caught for DIC on a friday and get thrown in the cells till mon where your delivered straight to court, here your taxi'd home to be back out behind the wheel within hours

point is people here are casual because they can get away with it,

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All well having a wish list in all but its a fact is being obsessed with punishment has been done over and over and has failed every time. Of course there's always going to be some people who don't learn but it's still far better have to support programs,policies etc that help people so they are less likely to offend in the first place. Not to mention the cost benefits down the line.

Your right NZ'ers are casual as with most things but i don't see that changing in a hurry.  

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1 hour ago, Eagle said:

The main reason i see the restricted license existing is to discourage teenagers driving around with mates at nights etc upon first getting their own car. 

Nope its to stop teenagers and inexperienced drivers driving around with their mates because restricted drivers have an horrendous accident - rate like 1in 4 will have a serious crash in the first 12 months. 

It's a safety driven thing not a punitive  measure. 

And agree - the driving test when I did my licence was easy and it is still easy - I get re-assessed every 5 years unlike 95% of the drivers on the road  who never get re-tested , not even after losing your licence for 12 months for dangerous driving or careless driving causing deat - now how ordinary is that? 

People are causal because not only can they get away with it but we set a very low standard and  lower it progressively as drivers become less competent  and then there are the seriously dumb changes like increasing the maximum weight on a class 1 licence so tourists who have never driven on an open road  nor driven a truck can rent a 6.5 tonne camper van and tour the back roads -

 

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21 minutes ago, Eagle said:

All well having a wish list in all but its a fact is being obsessed with punishment has been done over and over and has failed every time. Of course there's always going to be some people who don't learn but it's still far better have to support programs,policies etc that help people so they are less likely to offend in the first place. Not to mention the cost benefits down the line.

Your right NZ'ers are casual as with most things but i don't see that changing in a hurry.  

what would you do then out of curiosity, what policies are going to help say 20 yr old boy racers not offend in the first place,or people who don't bother with licenses or drive deathtraps with their kids unbelted in

society has to have laws and laws only work if there are consequences

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16 minutes ago, 3pedals said:

It's a safety driven thing not a punitive  measure. 

I agree i thought my comment basically implied that twas the case.   

Agreed about standards, some are areas seemly nonchalant whilst other departments like OSH have overboard ones. Sure we can all agree the death toll is caused by many contributing factors.

I can fit 4 different 10 year old Chinese tyres to my 1990 Hiace, install a set of worn shocks (no leaks) with under min thickness rotors and cheapest brake pads around, get a WOF and drive 110kph on the express way and its legal so its ok.

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, 3pedals said:

restricted drivers have an horrendous accident - rate like 1in 4 will have a serious crash in the first 12 months. 

You're not wrong but I think 1 in 4 is a bit extreme. In terms of having passengers while on your restricted, I think we should adopt some of the conditions which apply to Australian Provisional 'P' licenses, particularly being able to drive with one passenger, regardless of what license the passenger is on. When I did my defensive driving course, I remember the tutor telling us that studies found having a passenger was actually safer than driving solo, if they're aware of whats going on around them. Mobile phones definitely don't help.

As for actually passing your restricted test, I think it's a pretty thorough test which is good, however it involves no open road driving. The full license test is a bit of a joke. Took me around 15min, a third of it was spent sitting at traffic lights as I did it just before a long weekend.

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1 minute ago, kwhelan said:

what would you do then out of curiosity, what policies are going to help say 20 yr old boy racers not offend in the first place,or people who don't bother with licenses or drive deathtraps with their kids unbelted in

society has to have laws and laws only work if there are consequences

Comment was aimed at punishing people over and over again and expecting a different result.. Im not against zero punishment and some people can't be helped, finding a balance isn't easy and really comes down to the particulars of the situation. Law is sometimes works and sometimes it doesn't (2008 financial crisis)

Maybe starting a free legal place to drag race for the boy racers instead of the streets. The others are typically are lower class which all you can do really do educate and incentivize and hope they do better or at least their kids improve of their situation 

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Replace everyone's drivers airbag with a spike and let Mr Darwin do his thing. Seriously tho, you can't legislate against retardedness (I'd class most bureaucrats and politicians as retards) but you can attempt to educate. Refer to my comments re: bureaucrats however when you think on the fact that skills based training was rejected on the grounds that if people have better skills, they will just go faster and have worse crashes. Add to this most people in transport planning national/regional level jobs are greenie types who are only interested in getting us to take a bus or bike- cars are old hat, embrace the glorious transport revolution, comrades!

Yes we have a problem with drivers- but we also have a very real, very dangerous bureaucrat problem.

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Im all for letting Darwin get back to his regular job. We shouldnt have to have campaigns to tell people to wear their seatbelts....

Also agreed on the transport planning situation, what we have now is very scary (wife is a roading engineer) and will likely see a whole bunch of CE companies go bust and/or the skilled people leave the industry/country while plans for our nationwide gluten free monorail are drawn up.

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7 hours ago, Eagle said:

 

Maybe starting a free legal place to drag race for the boy racers instead of the streets.  

It's been tried before. The whole idea of illegal street racing is just that , Its illegal.

I remember driving on the Auckland motorways with only a white line between me and the oncoming traffic . It was only after some serious crashes that a median barrier was put in place to prevent traffic crossing over. hasn't stop accident's but sure has brought the death toll down.

All the driver training in the world wont stop traffic crossing over median line , I think its time for two lanes on all major roads and a median barrier down the middle.

If you use work safe practice to isolate ,minimise or eliminate , then to minimise would be your best practise.

 

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2 hours ago, richard said:

All the driver training in the world wont stop traffic crossing over median line , I think its time for two lanes on all major roads and a median barrier down the middle.

If you use work safe practice to isolate ,minimise or eliminate , then to minimise would be your best practise.

 

totally agree I would guess not many deaths involve a badly handled skid for example so you can't expect advanced skid training to save many lives, defensive training which is more spotting the dangers would though. I'm all for actually putting the road taxes back into roads so they can actually improve them. 35 deaths on that Tauranga article seems like a good start, hit the worst ones first then the annoyances. Why the hell is Huntly still on SH1,

Some of the roading engineers need some better training too. The one dual carriageway, we call it a motorway here in HB had a ridiculous major T intersection added at day 1 then changed to lights and now they are putting in a roundabout 10 years later which any idiot could see needed to be there since day 1. It already has 3-4 other roundabouts on same stretch of road put in at day 1. made zero sense to anyone.

just as a note , our small village Havelock North, basically a retirement home now has had 3-4 cars driven through front windows by mistake by elderly who hit the wrong pedal in last 18 months or so. My 95 father in law lives and drives there in a manual 71 mini. No way I'd ever get in car with him, only drives in daylight hours but basically half blind and deaf. I'm not going to take his keys off him, it would kill him but his bloody doctor is doing him no favours continually passing him fit to drive.

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2 hours ago, Jacko said:

Im all for letting Darwin get back to his regular job. We shouldnt have to have campaigns to tell people to wear their seatbelts....

 

or helmets on pushbikes

Edited by kwhelan

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The problem with relying on Darwin is that the idiots often take out innocent people who should be in the gene pool.

We all seem to agree that the standards and their application are the root causes , but we shouldn't just blame the politicians, they act on our signals as well and we bang on about nanny states and over regulation so we are contributors. 

Competence and experience are becoming rarer across  all of our activities, how many people change a wheel these days - they simply call the AA, how many can build a shed or retaining wall,  we now have to assess our machine operators annually and train them because many do not have the " I want to be better at this atttude"  they simply come to work to get the money. And driving has now become an inconvenence that gets in the way of being on social media for so many. 

 

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7 hours ago, richard said:

I remember driving on the Auckland motorways with only a white line between me and the oncoming traffic . It was only after some serious crashes that a median barrier was put in place to prevent traffic crossing over. hasn't stop accident's but sure has brought the death toll down.

All the driver training in the world wont stop traffic crossing over median line , I think its time for two lanes on all major roads and a median barrier down the middle.

If you use work safe practice to isolate ,minimise or eliminate , then to minimise would be your best practise.

Another 3 deaths, in the Waikato, over the week-end. Ute crossed the centre line on a "State Highway" I  believe it was. Median barrier, or even a central reservation, stops the small error becoming a big accident which increases the road toll.

And again, as 3Pedals says, the Darwin effect is negative as the one bad gene has taken out two innocent genes.

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