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Jun

New here, seriously thinking about E60 M5

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I am looking seriously in getting a E60 M5, no its not because of Hoovie and Doug just got a video of it recently.  I was looking at the M5 a few months ago, I was looking at S2000 but it seems the M5 is much more practical and my wife will not re-learn and want to drive a stick shift anymore.  I would like to ask some help regarding NZ specific things:

  • Is it true that I will not be able to get mechanical insurance from a private sale M5 (a friend of friend tried this before, he abandon the E60 M5 acquisition because of this)?  E.g. I approach an insurance company after I buy an M5.  I know the pros and cons of mechanical insurance, I don't need convincing using or not using one.  I have used them and also not used them on our cars.  I am leaning towards using insurance for a E60 M5, or factor in the cost of self-insuring a cheaper private sale M5.
  • Rod bearing replacement in NZ, I am aware the parts are not astronomic expensive (a good sign).  I can't do this myself, not enough skills and equipment.  I do have 2 good indy shops that does my other cars.  They are willing to do it, but neither has done this job specifically for a S85 engine.  I have seen 1 post here that said Taylor Auto AKL did it for $6.8k, is this true?  Any other M5 owners have done theirs and how much for both parts and labor and which shop? 

I will try to read more in the forums, but appreciate any links that would help me.  I am looking more for NZ specific information, there are lots of E60 info outside NZ.  Again thanks, maybe I will try to get a E60 M5 if everything works out.

 

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You can certainly buy an MBI policy from an agent and apply it to a vehicle you’ve just acquired elsewhere, or already own.  The insurer may want an inspection done to establish if there are pre-existing issues.  Having plenty of service history helps. 

I think it’s still possible to buy an MBI for an M5, though it’s a bit more pricey than it used to be; an exclusive category for complex and outrageously expensive to repair luxury cars.  I’d recommend buying a 5 year policy, which should make the vehicle a far more attractive proposition when it’s time to sell.  Particularly if the vehicle approaches that age limit where one can no longer initiate a new MBI policy.

Forgive me spruiking, you might like to know BMW Car Club NZ has arrangements with a number of businesses to provide discounts to members.  The discount on Autosure MBI from the agency may be worth considering if you’re about to buy a pricey MBI policy, it would certainly cover your membership fee and provide a useful saving.

Lastly which workshop is going to turn down a rod bearing job on a car like that?  I think if I were looking to buy an e60 M5 I’d be happy to be buying one with the job already done, though I’d be more favourably influenced had the work been executed by a well-recognised BMW specialist, or BMW dealer. 

Hope that helps.

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35 minutes ago, Olaf said:

I think it’s still possible to buy an MBI for an M5, though it’s a bit more pricey than it used to be; an exclusive category for complex and outrageously expensive to repair luxury cars.  I’d recommend buying a 5 year policy, which should make the vehicle a far more attractive proposition when it’s time to sell.  Particularly if the vehicle approaches that age limit where one can no longer initiate a new MBI policy.

I see, I guess it is still possible although as you said it maybe less probable.  Thanks for this info, this is useful

35 minutes ago, Olaf said:

Forgive me spruiking, you might like to know BMW Car Club NZ has arrangements with a number of businesses to provide discounts to members.  The discount on Autosure MBI from the agency may be worth considering if you’re about to buy a pricey MBI policy, it would certainly cover your membership fee and provide a useful saving.

Certainly this is useful info as well.  I haven't bought any MBI, my thinking is get the dealer to do the MBI.  Or if I did get a private sale, I set aside a budget for big breakdowns.

35 minutes ago, Olaf said:

Lastly which workshop is going to turn down a rod bearing job on a car like that?  I think if I were looking to buy an e60 M5 I’d be happy to be buying one with the job already done, though I’d be more favourably influenced had the work been executed by a well-recognised BMW specialist, or BMW dealer. 

Hope that helps.

Yes this certainly helps a lot.  Unfortunately I haven't seen any sellers claiming or have claimed the rod bearings are done by them.  I am sure any shop will do it, but for practical reasons here in Wellington I would only trust the indy shops I have history with.  1 shop is geared towards Skyline and JDM cars, he has serviced my R34 for over a decade.  He frequently does some my the jobs free or no fee to me.  Another shop is the Porsche specialist here in Wellington, they do a good job but their rates and waiting list is on the high side.  I have used them a few times to do the tricky jobs for our Cayenne.

A friend of my is a member here, told me someone in Wellington has an E60 M5 is an active member here.  He may have some info I could ask, I am trying to find the user that my friend mentioned to me.

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Continental BMW quoted me about 5k for rod bearing replacement, I doubt you could get it done properly for less than that. I spent about 7k but did other stuff at the same time. Mine had 150km on it and it was bordering on damaging the crank, I certainly wouldnt buy one with that sort of mileage that hadnt had them done.

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3 hours ago, Jun said:

A friend of my is a member here, told me someone in Wellington has an E60 M5 is an active member here.  He may have some info I could ask, I am trying to find the user that my friend mentioned to me.

@TermiPeteNZ

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3 hours ago, Jun said:

I see, I guess it is still possible although as you said it maybe less probable.  Thanks for this info, this is useful

Certainly this is useful info as well.  I haven't bought any MBI, my thinking is get the dealer to do the MBI.  Or if I did get a private sale, I set aside a budget for big breakdowns.

Yes this certainly helps a lot.  Unfortunately I haven't seen any sellers claiming or have claimed the rod bearings are done by them.  I am sure any shop will do it, but for practical reasons here in Wellington I would only trust the indy shops I have history with.  1 shop is geared towards Skyline and JDM cars, he has serviced my R34 for over a decade.  He frequently does some my the jobs free or no fee to me.  Another shop is the Porsche specialist here in Wellington, they do a good job but their rates and waiting list is on the high side.  I have used them a few times to do the tricky jobs for our Cayenne.

A friend of my is a member here, told me someone in Wellington has an E60 M5 is an active member here.  He may have some info I could ask, I am trying to find the user that my friend mentioned to me.

“Less Probable?”  Unsure which filter you applied to reach that conclusion.

Similarly, as it is a) possible to cover a private purchased vehicle, or indeed a dealer purchased vehicle - by buying direct through an agent at a discounted rate, why wouldn’t you?

youll take this theoretical vehicle wherever you choose, of course, and it’s good to have people you trust.  BMWs are a bit different, and I would be going to Page European, Auto 38, Winger BMW, or a couple of other BMW Specialist Independents in Wellington for work on a BMW, in particular an M5.  They’ll know the conventions.  Whereas your experienced JDM Yo workshop will know their vehicles.  It’s not just code readers, it’s knowing which specialist tools they need for timing etc etc.  This ain’t your aunty’s Camry.

@TermiPeteNZ that’s your cue.

good luck!

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1 hour ago, aja540i said:

Continental BMW quoted me about 5k for rod bearing replacement, I doubt you could get it done properly for less than that. I spent about 7k but did other stuff at the same time. Mine had 150km on it and it was bordering on damaging the crank, I certainly wouldnt buy one with that sort of mileage that hadnt had them done.

Thanks that is useful.  So a dealer BMW can do it for $5-10k, that seems to be similar to prices I have seen outside of NZ.  I can factor out that price if I end up getting a higher mileage car.

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31 minutes ago, Olaf said:

“Less Probable?”  Unsure which filter you applied to reach that conclusion.

Similarly, as it is a) possible to cover a private purchased vehicle, or indeed a dealer purchased vehicle - by buying direct through an agent at a discounted rate, why wouldn’t you?

Sorry I think we are having a slight misunderstanding here.  What I mean about "Less Probable" is: I buy a private sale M5.  I get a MBI either through agent or direct.  The insurance company does a lot of checks, it turns out there are defects that the PPI (Pre Purchase Inspection) didn't pickup.  Now I end a private sale M5 w/o MBI.  As opposed to going to a dealer, telling them include the MBI as part of the purchase, I drive with the M5 from a dealer with MBI.  This is what I meant "Less Probable" for me in getting a MBI on a private sale.  I hope I understood you correctly.  What is great about your answer, my initial thinking was the probability was 0 chance.  Because I have read the policy of a few MBI, someone via word of mouth didn't get a M5 because they couldn't obtain a MBI.  Since I wasn't sure, hence I asked the question.  I hope to removes any confusion, and also thank your initial answer as it changed my assumption for MBI on a private sale.

31 minutes ago, Olaf said:

youll take this theoretical vehicle wherever you choose, of course, and it’s good to have people you trust.  BMWs are a bit different, and I would be going to Page European, Auto 38, Winger BMW, or a couple of other BMW Specialist Independents in Wellington for work on a BMW, in particular an M5.  They’ll know the conventions.  Whereas your experienced JDM Yo workshop will know their vehicles.  It’s not just code readers, it’s knowing which specialist tools they need for timing etc etc.  This ain’t your aunty’s Camry.

@TermiPeteNZ that’s your cue.

good luck!

Thank you for the list of shops you listed. Seems Page European have come up a few times, good to hear.  Yes I am also aware of the nuances about the care, that is why I used 2 indy shops for our cars currently.  1 for the Skyline and Land Cruiser and another shop for the Cayenne.  So I think if I do get a M5, I need to figure out which shops to try.  Thank you for putting a list of shops I can use in Wellington.

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the PPI is the basis, maintenace records contribute.  The other part of the puzzle is the workshop's relationship with the insurer.  Where these are in balance, things go very smoothly.  We've not experienced Autosure trying to wiggle out of a claim.  

My personal experience is they've been exceptional. Diagnosis made by specialist, discussion re policy cover, dpecialist approaches insurer for approval.  I end up with a service record and a fix, and pay only my excess.


Alternately there are some who try to take advantage; understandably the insurer will examine carefully.

Summary:play by their rules, and use a specialist with an excellent relationship with the insurer, keep the vehicle serviced, and it's all really smooth.

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1 hour ago, Olaf said:

the PPI is the basis, maintenace records contribute.  The other part of the puzzle is the workshop's relationship with the insurer.  Where these are in balance, things go very smoothly.  We've not experienced Autosure trying to wiggle out of a claim.  

My personal experience is they've been exceptional. Diagnosis made by specialist, discussion re policy cover, dpecialist approaches insurer for approval.  I end up with a service record and a fix, and pay only my excess.


Alternately there are some who try to take advantage; understandably the insurer will examine carefully.

Summary:play by their rules, and use a specialist with an excellent relationship with the insurer, keep the vehicle serviced, and it's all really smooth.

Thanks.  I will keep that in mind.  I am looking at private sale more now, as I can possibly get a MBI after purchase of the car.  Most of the MBI I have seen requires 10 year or newer and 150k or less.  Also most excluded M cars, Porsche, etc.  Can you point me to policy or insurer that you guys use?

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Hey @Jun and welcome to BimmerSport :)

I'm based here in Welly and have only had my E60 M5 for just under 2 years. It's an epic vehicle and I have one as it is a 'bucket list' item for me.

In terms of MBI, if you look at Autosure (DPL/Turners) an M5 fits into Category D (Executive) and the thresholds for claims are:

  • Gold policy - max age 12 years, max KMs 160,000, excess $500, max claim value $5000
  • Platinum policy - max age 10 years, max KMs 100,000, excess $500, max claim value $10,000

This is based on the latest rate cards I have - so don't take this as gospel. Gold example is below.

So you'll have trouble attaching a MBI to most E60 M5s as they're just too old. In the last year I've seen 1 2009 M5 come up and most are 2005-2007. So if you want a performance 5-series with your risk covered, you're best to go for an E60 LCI or F10 550i MSport (Category C) where you can get affordable cover for longer for less money, or step up to a F10 M5, with prices starting around $55K.

My M5 is on ~143KMs now and has had clutch done, along with one actuator - but not the rod bearings yet as my MBI expires in a few weeks. Rod bearings is on my to-do list for next year and I'll get prices from a couple of places before doing it (e.g. Winger, Page). I've had my regular garage (Driscoll Motors) service my 545i (Richard's now), my E53 X5 and my M5 and they've been good - but recently I've had Winger look after the M5 (service, actuator replacement) as I just wanted M-car specific knowledge.

I love the vehicle and it puts a grin on my face every time I drive it (windows down of course!)

Happy to catch up and have a yak. Presumably you've driven one already?

FYI this one in Welly is being sold by one of the techs at Winger: https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/bmw/auction-1822874372.htm

Pete 

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Edited by TermiPeteNZ
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You might like this article: https://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/m5-e39-vs-m5-e60-vs-m5-f90/39295

And if you are buying a vehicle and getting an MBI, please do join the Club and you'll get a great deal on an Autosure policy that you can attach to a privately purchased vehicle, provided you have had a PPI from an Autosure-approved garage or inspector. However you buy the vehicle, pre-existing faults that came up at the inspection or that appear immediately won't be covered by an MBI.

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That one for sale in Wellington looks pretty good to me.

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10 hours ago, TermiPeteNZ said:

Happy to catch up and have a yak. Presumably you've driven one already?

FYI this one in Welly is being sold by one of the techs at Winger: https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/bmw/auction-1822874372.htm

Yes I have actually driven that particular M5.  He lives nearby, and he was kind enough to let me drive the car.  I also let him show me the M button, and you know the story after.  I guess after driving it I started to consider it more seriously.  I was just researching and lurking around forums and understanding the car more a few months back.

The MBI and being part of the club sounds good to me.  As our Cayenne's MBI is about to expire, although I have most issues already sorted out on the car after 2 years.

It might be good to catch up, I believe Daniel G. (my friend) told me we are actually in the same industry.

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If your partner doesn't want a manual they likely wont want an SMG M5.

Mechanical insurance is exceptionally expensive for these.  You could be looking at $2200 per year.  Mine cost that much and was limited at 2 years.

Before you own an M5, ask yourself these questions:

1: Can you live with 20L/100km fuel consumption?

2: Will anyone that frequently travels in the car have issues with the SMG?  My wife won't drive mine.

3: Do you have cash flow available IF something was to go wrong? I.e. can you pull $5-10k of cash together if the worst was to happen?

4: Are you happy with ~$2-4k per year servicing costs?

 

If you can get past the points above and you want an M5 then go for gold.  Otherwise I would suggest looking at alternatives such as the newer Audi S6 V8 twin turbo, AMG E63.  They aren't an E60 M5, but they are far more modern, faster and in the case of the Audi, fuel efficient.

 

Common maintenance items:

Tyres: $2200

Brakes: DIY @ $2500

Oil/filter: DIY @ $250

Spark plugs: DIY @ $200

VANOS Solenoids: $1400 each * 4

 

 

 

Edited by GorGasm
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3 minutes ago, GorGasm said:

If your partner doesn't want a manual they likely wont want an SMG M5.

She doesn't like to the clutch anymore.  I have driven an M5 SMG and its fine, a bit clunky but it's acceptable and tolerable.

3 minutes ago, GorGasm said:

Mechanical insurance is exceptionally expensive for these.  You could be looking at $2200 per year.  Mine cost that much and was limited at 2 years.

Before you own an M5, ask yourself these questions:

1: Can you live with 20L/100km fuel consumption?

Yes that is not much difference from our Cayenne (possibly M5 is even more efficient... yup we use about 20-30L/100km). If I don't spool the turbo on our R34, the Skyline it's our most economical car (10L/100km), but that never happens and (20L/100km) is achievable.  The local BP petrol station attendants calls me as their most valuable customer. 

3 minutes ago, GorGasm said:

2: Will anyone that frequently travels in the car have issues with the SMG?  My wife won't drive mine.

I don't see any issues with the SMG, aside from the usual maintenance cost.  My wife actually likes to drive these cars, minus the clutch.  She hates driving cars like: Camry or Corolla, etc.  She does appreciate our eclectic clunky old cars.  I think the SMG is actually appealing to us.

3 minutes ago, GorGasm said:

3: Do you have cash flow available IF something was to go wrong? I.e. can you pull $5-10k of cash together if the worst was to happen?

4: Are you happy with ~$2-4k per year servicing costs?

 

If you can get past the points above and you want an M5 then go for gold.  Otherwise I would suggest looking at alternatives such as the newer Audi S6 V8 twin turbo, AMG E63.

I am no stranger to 3 and 4.  I can work those out, worst case just park the old broken car until the other old cars all breakdown.  So far I haven't got a case where all the old cars had major issues the same time.

The S6 and E63 was suggested to me, but for me the engines doesn't have enough different character from a V8 Cayenne, yes they are not the same but the S85 V10 NA high rpm and clunky SMG is much more different experience.  I am trying to trick my brain the reliability issues of the E60 M5 is just part of the character!

Or I can just think logically and never buy a M5.... however it is also logical to have a V10 and SMG experience w/o the exotic car capital and running cost.

Thanks for the info they are all helpful, I am lucky enough to have a wife and kids than understands the insanity of these cars.  Even my young daughter likes our old cars.  I just need to make sure we can eat 3x a day and still enjoy life.

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Sounds like you will be fine with an M5.  I've had mine for 2 years now and only had minor things:

1x coil

1x knock sensor (dealer fixed it)

Diff seal leak

P/S leak

 

 

I do have to do the brakes and tyres next year though.

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5 minutes ago, GorGasm said:

Sounds like you will be fine with an M5.  I've had mine for 2 years now and only had minor things:

1x coil

1x knock sensor (dealer fixed it)

Diff seal leak

P/S leak

I do have to do the brakes and tyres next year though.

Agreed. You sound like you're a good fit and going in eyes open.

  • I've had a coil go too, plus bonnet struts.
  • Previous owner had the E60 sunroof drain blockage issue that needed a lot of the interior removed to be dried.
  • Done 2 front tyres after getting a massive bolt in the front left :(
  • Fuel level sensor is a bit meh - replaced one sender but still not quite accurate. 
  • Since my final drive/diff service at Winger I'm getting LSD binding/slipping which is irritating - even after replacing the fluid with the stuff containing the special additive.
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1 hour ago, Jun said:

She doesn't like to the clutch anymore.  I have driven an M5 SMG and its fine, a bit clunky but it's acceptable and tolerable.

Yes that is not much difference from our Cayenne (possibly M5 is even more efficient... yup we use about 20-30L/100km). If I don't spool the turbo on our R34, the Skyline it's our most economical car (10L/100km), but that never happens and (20L/100km) is achievable.  The local BP petrol station attendants calls me as their most valuable customer. 

I don't see any issues with the SMG, aside from the usual maintenance cost.  My wife actually likes to drive these cars, minus the clutch.  She hates driving cars like: Camry or Corolla, etc.  She does appreciate our eclectic clunky old cars.  I think the SMG is actually appealing to us.

I am no stranger to 3 and 4.  I can work those out, worst case just park the old broken car until the other old cars all breakdown.  So far I haven't got a case where all the old cars had major issues the same time.

The S6 and E63 was suggested to me, but for me the engines doesn't have enough different character from a V8 Cayenne, yes they are not the same but the S85 V10 NA high rpm and clunky SMG is much more different experience.  I am trying to trick my brain the reliability issues of the E60 M5 is just part of the character!

Or I can just think logically and never buy a M5.... however it is also logical to have a V10 and SMG experience w/o the exotic car capital and running cost.

Thanks for the info they are all helpful, I am lucky enough to have a wife and kids than understands the insanity of these cars.  Even my young daughter likes our old cars.  I just need to make sure we can eat 3x a day and still enjoy life.

My wife is a bit fussy and she doesn't mind the SMG. She also doesn't really like it, but she copes fine.

My kids love the M5 :)

Also note that any Audi S is now in Cat D (not just RS) - here's the updated Autosure tables from ~March. Again - check with Jono at MTF...

image.thumb.png.df6ddf0c275192f8c36cbd425f5ee0c0.png

image.thumb.png.548e3eb2030c47565ac513468d54c497.png

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Interesting to hear the costs on the bearings and then this pops up on my YouTube recommendations today: 

 No idea if he’s doing everything you should be doing but does not seem to be too major for a once in a life of the car fix. 

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Ok finally got a deal.  We went for an older 2005 car but lower milage 55k from a dealer, we where able to also get 2 years MBI.  We actually chose that particular car for the all chalk white interior, something we just recently wanted as a different thing from our other old cars.  Going to fly down and drive it up after Christmas, hopefully an enjoyable and safe little road trip.  Any M5 or BMW specific tips for me to check/know?  I have my own generic 2nd hand car checklist, but appreciate specific thinks like:

  • M5 no dip stick, but can check reading on computer.  Also you can force it to refresh the data as long as engine is warm
  • Avoid stepping the gas while its cold, not a M5 specific but more important if its a S85 engine
  • SMG doesn't excessively lurch, etc. I have driven 1 M5 so I have a baseline to go
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3 hours ago, Jun said:

Ok finally got a deal.  We went for an older 2005 car but lower milage 55k from a dealer, we where able to also get 2 years MBI.  We actually chose that particular car for the all chalk white interior, something we just recently wanted as a different thing from our other old cars.  Going to fly down and drive it up after Christmas, hopefully an enjoyable and safe little road trip.  Any M5 or BMW specific tips for me to check/know?  I have my own generic 2nd hand car checklist, but appreciate specific thinks like:

  • M5 no dip stick, but can check reading on computer.  Also you can force it to refresh the data as long as engine is warm
  • Avoid stepping the gas while its cold, not a M5 specific but more important if its a S85 engine
  • SMG doesn't excessively lurch, etc. I have driven 1 M5 so I have a baseline to go

Congrats Jun! Yes the white interiors look beautiful - as long as you keep em clean :) 55KMs sure is low. Look forward to catching up at a meet in the near future.

Be careful with all the tourist traffic on the way back, but it should be an epic drive. Make sure you tank up whenever you get the chance too! 

In terms of temp - yes no revving after turning the car on - keep it below 3-4K RPMs until the engine has warmed up (and there's a gauge for that …)

Did you get a pre-purchase inspection done? - as an MBI won't cover pre-existing faults.
If not, recommend you get a thorough check done here in Welly, or get a service done with check as part of it.

BMW Club members get a free code scan from Auto 38 too - at the very least get this done.

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2 minutes ago, TermiPeteNZ said:

Congrats Jun! Yes the white interiors look beautiful - as long as you keep em clean :) 55KMs sure is low. Look forward to catching up at a meet in the near future.

Just checked the ad, it's 53,900kms.. I hope it's genuine. Photos of pedal, seats, etc do suggest it was hardly used. Yes cool too see another M5.

2 minutes ago, TermiPeteNZ said:

 

Did you get a pre-purchase inspection done? - as an MBI won't cover pre-existing faults.
If not, recommend you get a thorough check done here in Welly, or get a service done with check as part of it.

BMW Club members get a free code scan from Auto 38 too - at the very least get this done.

No PPI, I thought I only had to that for private sale. I did get a report from dealer all the worked that was done. Even has new front disks and pads. That the biggest item on the list where the worn out brakes, others are cosmetics and fluids. Also codes was scanned and cleared. So I assume this is essentially as PPI and fix at the same time? Or is my assumption wrong? We didn't have an issue with our previous PPI from a dealer. Btw dealer is Paul Kelly, they have 4 M5 listed and I guess you which M5 we took.

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32 minutes ago, Jun said:

Just checked the ad, it's 53,900kms.. I hope it's genuine. Photos of pedal, seats, etc do suggest it was hardly used. Yes cool too see another M5.

No PPI, I thought I only had to that for private sale. I did get a report from dealer all the worked that was done. Even has new front disks and pads. That the biggest item on the list where the worn out brakes, others are cosmetics and fluids. Also codes was scanned and cleared. So I assume this is essentially as PPI and fix at the same time? Or is my assumption wrong? We didn't have an issue with our previous PPI from a dealer. Btw dealer is Paul Kelly, they have 4 M5 listed and I guess you which M5 we took.

Yep interior wear (usually driver's seat bolster) is a gauge of mileage :) There shouldn't be much at 55KMs.

I think PPI is a good idea even from a dealer, especially for an older car. Also clears the air re MBI and state of the car when cover commences. The dealer may be thorough and responsible, but independent verification is always a good plan as you have to remember that they have different objectives :o:) 💲

It looks very tidy! Silverstone II on Silverstone Merino extended leather.
I particularly like blue on white as a combo but it doesn't come up very often... 

Have you looked up the VIN on https://www.mdecoder.com/ to get the full detailed spec?

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