Camber kit from Trade Me - no bearing inside, how to install??

[Kodachrome 146]

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/car-parts-accessories/bmw/suspension/listing/2736771526

 

Im at a loss to have this is meant to work. I have new Bilstein Sports here for my E28 and this camber kit, in my hands. Its supplied with all the usual adapters to sleeve the shaft of the shock.

However they have not supplied a thrust (flat) bearing and the camber kit itself is two solid pieces with a spherical (ie tilting) bearing inside. 

Ireland Engineering produce a similar kit but they supply a thrust bearing:

https://www.iemotorsport.com/product/ie-adjustable-camber-fixed-caster-plates-2002-e21/

 

What am I missing here!? Im in email contact with them but they are claiming "the bearing is inside".. yes, the wrong type of bearing!  

Edited August 17, 2020 by Kodachrome

[Kodachrome 146]

Hmm, I'm not following? What do you mean, the Ireland engineering unit definitely does use a flat thrust "bearing" (ok, well, its a thrust roller washer), its pictured on the link as a roller washer thing that would allow that pivot action. I can't see how I can clamp down on the screw thread without pinching the mount to the strut itself. I'll keep trying. 

Part G

 

[M3AN 4015]

It doesn't show it pictured but it is included:

Quote

Kit includes slotted mounting plates, billet 6061T aluminum sliding plates with steel spherical bearings and 2.5″ ID upper spring perches containing needle thrust bearings. Coilovers and springs sold separately. Fits E30, E28, E24 & E34 chassis.

Surely you need a thrust bearing/washer to take the loads required when the wheels turn? I'm not an expert on this so stand to be corrected but I don't think the spherical bearing at the top can take those vertical loads.

But not having inspected the parts myself I'm just guessing, there could be two bearings in that silver bit.

Edited August 17, 2020 by M3AN

[Kodachrome 146]

Took some close up photos. 

 

Trying different combo's of the shaft adapters here. Top one (on left) screws down, the other one brings the shaft from 14mm to 16mm for the camber plate. Stacked like that they dont actually touch in the middle when installed, just binds the hold thing up:

Edited August 17, 2020 by Kodachrome

[Kodachrome 146]

I put the wrong image up, but thats what I was describing:

"Trying different combo's of the shaft adapters here. Top one (on left) screws down, the other one brings the shaft from 14mm to 16mm for the camber plate. Stacked like that they dont actually touch in the middle when installed, just binds the hold thing up"

Ive fitted E28, E34, E39 and E31 upper strut mounts and all of them have one bearing yes, an axial bearing. You just put the washer on either side of the bearing and you are done. The vast majority of aftermarket camber kits also feature axial bearings, exactly the same. I found some people asking the same question I have with these spherical bearing kits (which IMO are the minority of kits) and all those threads ended with people advising just to ditch them and get a proper camber kit. 

 

 

Here are some photos, last one is with the nut on, which binds on the mount, locking the whole thing solid. I would think what was meant to happen was the two metal sleeves meet in the middle (inside the spherical bearing) and the top mount assembly "floats".. but they dont, they are too short so it just binds. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Kodachrome

[thorburn 120]

Are you worried that the spherical bearing won't turn about the shock axis? 

[Kodachrome 146]

Well you do seem to know what you are talking about!     When I asked the seller their initial feedback (which they later corrected) was the yellow dust boots were actually the thrust bearings. Which didn't inspire confidence.

It definately cannot be turned by hand when even loosely tightened, just like a bad standard upper mount would do (its like its siezed). So you are saying thats ok and should be fine when installed?

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Kodachrome

[Kodachrome 146]

Thanks, tried those checks. 

1: No, it definitely will not turn by hand, though there is nothing grab by hand really either. 

2: Yes, see image. I put a spare bolt and washer from my seat swap in and clamped it down. With the ratchet and something to grip the mount (threaded bar between studs) I was able to slowly but smoothly turn it. 

3: I didnt have a 14mm threaded piece of bar or bolt here to test, living in a townhouse don't have a ton of space at the moment.

 

So I guess it will "turn" though I worry my poor old car with its poor old PS pump and hoses will be a bit "WTF are you doing?" when I try steer with these in it!

I dont think anything is/was binding.. its just way way stiffer to turn than OEM, so much so that it appeared "rigid" without using handtools as above. Or when compared to video's of other camber kits. 

 

As it happened I got an email from their product manager too, who suggests:

"The spacer and nut should not bind together in the centre. Nut and spacer measurement is 19.5mm and length of the pillow ball is 20mm.

The only issue I see that you have is that the kit provided does not come with thrust bearings. "

 

I checked with a digital caliper and those are the measurements indeed. 

I've asked him if those mentioned thrust bearings were meant to come with the kit or supplied by me. Because like.. that is infact the question that started all this! 

EDIT: This is his reply.. 

The bearing we do not sell sorry and I would not advise assembly without it.

 

Grrr, now what!? 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Kodachrome

[Kodachrome 146]

1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

Like the council supplied work bench ! 

So: 'yes it turns smoothly  with a bit of effort and some leverage' -  if you can repeat this with the shock inserted and the spacer nuts fitted then I suggest you install them.  Their description is what I would expect. 

The spherical bearing should not need a thrust bearing as it can / should be able to take the vertical load from the spring platform and the shock load if it is properly designed - so I wouldn't expect to see one in a spherical bearing top mount kit (refer also reasons above). 

In terms of the stiffness some steering & suspension ball joints can be rather stiff to articulate so that's not unusual and in terms of the  power steering coping with it - you have an arm off the hub that is providing a fair bit of leverage.   

 

Lol yes, Im real hit and miss in my tool selection where Im living, most in storage. 

So put the kit on the shock and tightened the nut down. When I try turn the mount it tries to tighten or loosen the nut.

When I try turn the shock holding the mount it just spins the shaft in the shock body itself, which I gather is not good. Maybe when installed (vs in my hands) and clamped down in the strut tube. 

 

[Kodachrome 146]

I do appreciate your input, Mountshop just told me to return them and also are backing out of saying they will work in this car now (despite confirming it to me previously) without thrust bearings.. which they have no image or PN for!

On your suggestion:

Well I'll have to skip the spring perches as I didnt order spares and havent dismantled the car wanted to "dry fit" the upper mount to the shock to check it was all good first.

I was able to clamp (pipe pliers) the shaft of the shock under the mount (not on the shiny part, on the piece welded to the top, under thread). And with a 15cm bar for leverage I was able to turn them without the shock spinning around. 

 

So I guess your initial point is correct, they do rotate and pivot with enough effort. You are saying install them as is, Mountshop are now advising not to install them without mysterious thrust bearings!? 

thanks again!

Edited August 18, 2020 by Kodachrome

[Kodachrome 146]

2 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Well only one option really, return them 

 I'm about to fit some of their rear mounts in my E36 so I'll let you know how that goes 

Will

Im sure the rears will be fine as they wont need to rotate. I did a lot more googling and founding using the term "pillow ball" (pillowball) bearing vs "spherical" and I got tons more hits. I found lots of them in camber kits in track Subaru's (and Tein brand coilover kits) and frequently come up with "why does my spring bind" and noises etc. People DIY fixes by adding.. needle thrust bearings! 

This guy specifically outlines my fear (on an E36)! http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135027

In now trying to finding bearings to fit this but given I would have to put the bearing on the shaft top (16mm ID bearing) its not super obvious that the rating would be or even where to place it?

From test fitting there are some scratches on them and now Im not sure they will even allow me to return them.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Kodachrome

[Kodachrome 146]

Yeah, surely we've taken this as far as reasonable. I'll get the return and just ordered some OEM type mounts. This is the second time I tried to switch to a camber kit, failed again (think last time on diff car the part was lost in post)!