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Olaf

e46 Touring - audio refresh

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Sorry Nathan, nothing to report.  It got well and truly parked.  We still have the e46 Touring, going well, though it's my wife's daily and the rattly tweeter really needs sorting.

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On 12/19/2020 at 11:45 PM, zero said:

Any progress on this install? Im in the same boat and have discovered today that the aftermarket 6.5 speakers dont fit in the touring rear speaker factory pods

Depth or bracket?

In my coupe I had to ensure I got pretty shallow 6.5" components / splits and a mounting adaptor to fit the front doors. Tweeters I butchered the factory ones (mount and speaker were all in one) to mount the new ones in their place.

While I certainly don't have golden ears, I do enjoy decent sound but I think in a car there is just too much other noise and harsh surfaces to contend with to invest too much on top quality stuff. 

Decent front components, a 4 way amp and small sub is about as far as I would bother these days.

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Bracket.

 

Depth is fine.

 

I cut up the stock speakers to make baffles out of but further down the road I will make some proper ones out of mdf

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On 12/23/2016 at 7:08 AM, Olaf said:

okay, so I'm doing 70-80kms each day (round trip) for my commute; spending so much time in the car, I'm thinking some improved audio would make my daily grind better.  I'll lay out some context and objectives, before we get into objectives.

1.  Audio.  I listen to music.  I used to be an audiophile.  I'm more a 'flat earther' - the whole Linn/Naim thing from the 70's/80's that focuses on PRaT (Pace, Rythmn, and Timing)... and I continue to decry this BS notion of "soundstage" on the basis its not reall experienced in the studio (it's manufactured), rarely encountered live (sound reinforcement, baby), and is usually delivered by HiFi systems that are rythmically challenged (e.g. the Bass Player is about to fall asleep, he's so far out of time with the drummer you're thinking he's taken a mandrax, whilst the rythmn guitarist is on speed)... yes I run a Naim Audio system at home, still spin my records on a Linn LP12, and favour headphones by AKG and Beyer Dynamic.     

Conclusion?  Don't give me typical Japanese Audio with cut-glass highs and slow plodding over-blown one-note bass.  I want TIMING, TIMING, TIMING, I want fast, tuneful bass, I wasnt it musical, baby.  I honestly think most ICE enthusiasts have never heard truly good hifi, and rarely listen to live music.  

I am not looking for a disco in my car!

I like the approach Neal has taken to his M3; I just don't have the committment to go that far!  I'm not sure I'm going to need electronic x-overs and stuff.

2.  The car.  

  • The factory head unit stays.  This is a constraint.  I realise - and recognise Source First (Garbage in, Garbage out) - that this is a constraint.  I also like the integration - auto volume etc - and one day I may even  get a sports steering wheel with integrated controls!
  • My car lives on the street - it must be stealth.  I will not sacrifice trunk space and utility for a sub box.  Any sub must be small, tight, tuneful - either mounted in the side panel, or abover the space saver spare in the trunk floor.  I realise with a small box it probably constrains me to a small driver; this is a compromise I can live with.  My sub must not be lagging behind the music; it's about sound reinforcement, not SPL sound-offs.  
  • I'd like to have iPhone integration (lightning or bluetooth); I can sacrifice the CD changer for this.  Oh, and no visible or irreversible hacks to the interior; this should be removable.  I listen to FM and CD's.  Being able to play from my phone and or spotify would be good.
  • It must be removable/reversible.  It may cost a bit for this kit, so it should be able to go with me.  I doubt that a flash audio system adds $$ to the value of your car, just helps it sell to the right buyer.

3.  The work:  I'm past massive fabrication work.  I don't mind the idea of building a custom-fit sub box, but speaker pods and all that malarky, no thanks.  I'm impressed by what others do, I'm sticking to 'simple'.  Some dynamat in key places to quiet things down/stiffen things up:  yes, by all means!

4.  What am I thinking?  new 2-way component speakers in the front, an amp, and a sub.  I read this from Audio-file In Car, UK and thought "I know the Audio File from my time in UK, they did Naim and real british HiFi... this is probably a good approach to music in the car" (as opposed to screechy in-car entertainment)... I don't know which iPhone integration box to use.  So as a base kit list (doesn't seem cheap - can I do similar and still avoid awful screechy out of time ICE for less money:

- Front speakers:  Focal 165 VRS (shallow mount component speakers)

- Amp: JL Audio XD500/3

- Sub:  some kind of small sub in a custom enclosure. (did I say must be fast, tuneful, no one-note bass)

- other:  iPhone integration unit.

- other: ability to add a streaming source later - perhaps phone controlled?

- other: what if I want to amp-up the other speakers later? And possibly improve the speakers in the rear doors and the load area?

As you can see, the kit above ain't cheap.  Perhaps there's a shallow-mount 6.5" component speaker solution from Focal or Boston Acoustics that will much of this for half the price?  The amp looks like a great solution; is there something less expensive that's nearly as good?

I'm just starting out on this, it'll take me a while to suss out.  Cabling - I'd rather do it once... I guess the amp will sit beneath the comms deck in the boot, forward of the spare wheel well, behind the rear seat, like this (with thanks to Neil Mukerji).  Mine is basically empty, being a Japan-spec '02 325i Touring.  I'm thinking there'll be plenty of new cabling to be done, and a good strong power feed and earth for a new amp?

As you can see, I've a lot to consider, and a bit to catch up on.  I want to keep it simple, and am aware I'm compromising a bit wit hthe constraints I've chosen.  

The journey begins.

 


for minimising speaker and HU cabling have a  look at technics bmw harnesses . The guy reverse engineered the quad lock connector that sits in the amp . So basically his connector has rca and speaker wire hanging off it which means you can fit a small form factor amp in its place with minimal wiring effort so you can leave the cabin alone..

If your up for class D then heat is of little worry and 60wx4 rms will only need 8 gauge power and earth makking the battery run easy.

The bmw e46 has a good gauge of wire on the mid bass speakers so no need to add fav 12 /14 gauge ofc. 

Sub,.  As part of your research in terms of space . iB subs have come back to fashion  and require minimal room . But also consider running passive radiators as the boxes end up small and there is no port noise.

As a consideration iIm looking in a boom box project for the daughter using a Tan Ban w5  sub. Basically it only needs 20cm cube and can play down to the high 30hz.  Q can be changed a bit by adding washers to its passive radiators . 
https://toidsdiyaudio.com/2020/02/06/mini-earthquake-an-8-cube-of-bass/

 

 

 

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On 12/24/2020 at 2:46 PM, Neal said:

technics bmw harnesses

Great info there Neal.

I looked up the harness guy and it doesn't look like he makes anything for e46?

Am I missing something?

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Yeah, a progress update would be good. If I'd seen this a few years ago when started I would have suggested what I've written below. Considering improving the factory system in my E36...

I'd second going active as it's the best and really the only way to get a fast dynamic response. It also opens up the possibility to properly add DSP based correction and active crossovers to the system. I'm not sure if pre-amp level programmable DSP based crossovers are available with FIR capability for the car audio market. You need something you can add your own FIR coefficients to and it must have programmable delays. With a decent DSP system you can get amazing results.

I also second Morel. These guys make amazing drivers with most of the design engineers ex Dynaudio. Most of their older drivers look exactly like Dynaudio...

I started a home audio project back in 99 which was completed about 3 years ago. It's a 5-way active system with a sub and 2 x 4-way towers. The sub uses 2 x RCF L18P200KN drivers in an isobaric 4th order bandpass tuned for bandwidth, not peak. This puts the -3dB points at 13Hz and 90Hz with 0.7dB ripple in the passband. With 2 of these I can easily achieve 120dBA at 20Hz. The crossover points are 70, 280, 1120 & 4480 Hz, all 80dB/oct FIR with under 0.1dB pre-ringing and the highest peak in the stop-band -96dB. The bass driver is Morel Ultimo 124 car sub which has typically 0.1% distortion across the frequency range it's used in (70-280Hz @ 95dBA). The lower-mid is Dynaudio 15W75, Mid Dynaudio Esotar M560D and Tweeter Dynaudio T330D. All drivers can peak at 120dBA without compression.

Another thing you can do if you get a programmable DSP is perform partial transfer function correction of the drivers. You measure the driver transient response which shows you the mathematical relationship between the electrical signal and what the driver does. You then invert this, apply a low-pass filter to the result (so you don't need infinite power) and apply it to the DSP. Think of the speaker cone a block of concrete and the voice-coil inductance as a spring attached to the block of concrete. If you instantly push the back of the spring in 100mm and hold it then instantaneously the concrete does nothing. It then begins to accelerate due to the force from the spring. It eventually reaches the 100mm point but because it now has momentum it over shoots and keeps going. The force from the spring now inverts and start to pull the block back. The end result is the block bounces around on the spring for a while slowly diminishing until it eventually settles at 100mm from where it started. The same thing happens to speaker cones. Using the DSP you can almost completely remove this damped ringing to compensate for the physical limitations of the driver.

Another cool thing you can do with the DSP is add thermal modelling for the voice coils and excursion modelling for the cones to limit the system so it never operates outside the maximums.

Lastly, you can do room correction with the DSP box (if it has enough processing power). A lot of DSP based room correction is done using FIR but I find this destroys the sound stage and makes the music sound dead. This is possibly because FIR cannot fix the decayed ringing natural room reflections produce - they target the first reflection well but often don't address the ringing. Instead I use IIR based parametric EQ which behaves the same way natural ringing does. It preserves the soundstage while allowing the room to be corrected to within 0.5dB. You might need up to 40 bands per channel to get a good response though - depending on the room. You may not need this many bands in a car.

The end result is a system that's very fast, has very low distortion, near-perfect timing, amazing imaging and sounds natural (like live music). It also adds very little of it's own character to the sound which some people don't like as they're used to hearing the distortion most speakers add - sometimes this can even be quite pleasant).

I built my own DSP processor with 10 output DAC's as nothing was available commercially with features I needed when I started the project. Most likely something is available now for car audio with many/most of these features. You could also partially DIY a DSP box using parts and software from MiniDSP.

Of course, this might also be outside your budget...

 

Edited by wrs
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Really cool. How about some pics of your build @wrs

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Here's a few photo's of bits of the system:

Main Speaker:

The speaker is 1.8m tall and has no parallel sides + the sides are curved and taper in thickness - no standing waves or resonances are present due to every panel being irregular in shape and thickness. There's an internal matrix to add extra stiffness and create tunnels to absorb all rear speaker radiation by packing the tunnels with progressively dense absorption material.

Main-Speaker.jpg

Sub:

Above the sub is a 55" TV to give some idea of size - it weighs 330kg. The sub also has an internal matrix to stiffen the sides, top and bottom. The matrix is on 100mm x 100mm centers. It's a stereo sub with a separation down the middle with each half having 2 x 18" driver. Because it's 4th order bandpass you only see the port for each channel.

Sub.jpg

DSP Processor:

The DSP is an Analog Devices ADSP21469. There's an Intel NUC PC included as a media player using J-River. The DAC's are PCM1794A with AD797 V/I converters and LT1028 LPF in a balanced non-earth filter arrangement. The volume controls are PGA4311, again balanced with no earth. The 10 x DAC outputs are balanced 600 Ohm. Interconnects are Mogami Starquad into a 600 Ohms balanced input on the amp per channel. The V/I and filter Opamps, R's and C's are under the black heatsink as they run quite high bias and need forced cooling. There's some squishy thermal pad between the heatsink and components. The sound card is a M2Tech HiFace modified with analogue supplies to reduce jitter and the I²S signals are directly tapped off USB chip to the DSP so there's no conversion to SPDIF and back.

DSP.jpg

Power Supply:

PSU.jpg

The amps are:

Tweeter: 350W Mosfet 8 Ohms

Mid: 350W Mosfet 8 Ohms

Lower Mid: 700W Mosfet 4 Ohms

Bass: 1250W Mosfet 4 Ohms

Sub: 2500W Mosfet 2 Ohms

The reason the amps are so big isn't to make the system loud - it's to have 2x the voltage required to apply speaker correction to properly control cone movement and overcome the voice-coil inductance.

Edited by wrs
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That is truly impressive. Did you take any pics from when you were building the speakers? The matrix inside sounds similar to what b&w did with their 8 series speakers.

 

And do you have any pics of the amps?

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Thanks, was a long project with a few changes along the way (as I learned what did and didn't work).

I don't have any photo's of the internal matrix (anymore) and have never seen inside the B&W speakers. I did pinch their idea though as it makes perfect sense and suspect the insides would be similar.

I'll take some pics of the amps later on. They're not painted yet - just white primer. I don't think I've got any pics of the insides though - maybe the input board only. I'm thinking about changing the amps to Hypex so they can be mounted into the base of the speakers. There's room left in the base for amps to go, I just never did it. With the Hypex amps and Power Supplies it would tidy up the wiring a fair bit. Most stereo setups (2 speakers) only have one pair of speaker cables and interconnects (some maybe 2 pairs of speaker cables). For active setups you need one pair of speaker cables and interconnects per speaker - 5 pairs or each in my case.

I like to show it off too so anyone who wants a listen is welcome if they're ever in Napier.

The next generation will have the amps, and DSP in the speaker with wireless connections. All I have to do is figure out how to sync the two speakers. It shouldn't be too difficult... The only unknown is how sensitive the ear is to left/right timing errors - I suspect as long as the difference is under 1us you won't notice. It should be fairly easy to get the two speakers sync'd to under 100ns.

Here's some amps pic's:

Front:

Still only undercoated... The indicators show power, protection, overtemp and clipping. These pre-date the DSP modelling the speakers and amps so clipping cannot occur. Protect can still occur if there's DC present in the output. Overtemp is in case of fan failure. There's 2 internal low speed high-pressure fans that suck air in over the 5 x 1kVA toroidal transformers , 200,000uF caps per channel and then blows up the heatshink. The fans are variable speed based on heatsink temp and you never hear them unless I've been blasting Infected Mushroom for 20 minutes+ and then only slightly between tracks.

Front.jpg

Back:

Balanced XLR's and 4 Pole Speakon connectors.

Back.jpg

Balanced Input Board:

Balanced.jpg

Edited by wrs
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On 12/25/2020 at 11:56 PM, zero said:

Great info there Neal.

I looked up the harness guy and it doesn't look like he makes anything for e46?

Am I missing something?

He did start with building the e46 / e39 connectors so worth an email. It might be possible that bmw carried the amp connector into the next models.

Below is the harness / adapter 

 

btw , if looking at Morel check out parts-express.  They sell the individual drivers with good discounts. Some models have great off axis response which is important on the drivers side speakers.

https://www.parts-express.com/brand/morel/121

 

 

 


 

 

F24B438C-AF0A-4FBF-8912-196479E4D3A6.jpeg

Edited by Neal
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