BMW lead investigation into vehicular hydrogen storage systems

[polley 916]

26 minutes ago, dirtydoogle said:

The biggest hurdle is it takes 80-100kw/h of electricity to make the required hydrogen ICE travel 100km. Currently hydrogen gas power is pretty inefficient. Most EVs will do 100km under 20kw/h (not including charging and line losses)

 

Tis a shame, because ICE engines are fun and some make cool noises 

I dont think the hydrogen will be used in ICE engines. More intended for fuel cell use to run electric motors ? 

[gjm 3193]

14 hours ago, lord_jagganath said:

switch Tiwai Point from Aluminium to Hydrogen production 

Already planned.

As is a hydrogen facility in Hastings. However, in the usual bureaucratic way, they 'plan to start' that in 2025. Bit fuggin' late, in my opinion.

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

27 minutes ago, gjm said:

Already planned.

As is a hydrogen facility in Hastings. However, in the usual bureaucratic way, they 'plan to start' that in 2025. Bit fuggin' late, in my opinion.

What is the planned power source for the Hastings operation?

[lord_jagganath 421]

if they could utilise cow fart methane/landfill gas, it could be awesome

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

2 minutes ago, lord_jagganath said:

if they could utilise cow fart methane/landfill gas, it could be awesome

It's a nice idea but I'm sure the energy required to do this at scale requires heavy dairy intensification in an area without a huge dairy prescence and under a regulatory framework that is hostile to dairy conversion. Possibly need more people producing more rubbish too.

[dirtydoogle 383]

1 hour ago, polley said:

I dont think the hydrogen will be used in ICE engines. More intended for fuel cell use to run electric motors ? 

I would expect so. The technology has a very long way to go currently to be as efficient as a BEV, but I love the idea

[gjm 3193]

1 hour ago, Young Thrash Driver said:

What is the planned power source for the Hastings operation?

I don't think they've planned that far ahead.
I tried to get info, tried to become involved, learn something about it, but all I got was a very closed advisory that planning is for 2025.

[polley 916]

55 minutes ago, gjm said:

I don't think they've planned that far ahead.
I tried to get info, tried to become involved, learn something about it, but all I got was a very closed advisory that planning is for 2025.

Typical of any infrastructure build round here. "We are gonna do this!" With no planning on actually how we are gonna do it. 

[lord_jagganath 421]

2 hours ago, Young Thrash Driver said:

It's a nice idea but I'm sure the energy required to do this at scale requires heavy dairy intensification in an area without a huge dairy prescence and under a regulatory framework that is hostile to dairy conversion. Possibly need more people producing more rubbish too.

surprisingly, there was supposed to have been a biomethane production plant at an old pig farm in taupiri, but I guess a lot of plans got scuppered in the last 10 years by NIMBYs 

[Olaf 3236]

18 hours ago, polley said:

The only thing ideal about is the abundance of electricity available. The rest of the logistics, like compressing it into tanks and sticking it on trucks and carting it around the country and to the north island, not so ideal.

we seem to manage that very well with LPG, and we used to with CNG as well.  We just need to solve the problem.  Perhaps the issue is that this govt will have racked up so much debt bankrolling hermitville lockdowns and wrecking the economy, investing a little in a distribution network will be viewed as "too costly".  And they laid their bet on electric cars (pssst - do we have a distribution network to support the additional load?!, or the generation capacity?).

[Olaf 3236]

5 hours ago, gjm said:

Already planned.

As is a hydrogen facility in Hastings. However, in the usual bureaucratic way, they 'plan to start' that in 2025. Bit fuggin' late, in my opinion.

Given their performance with Kiwibuild, that'll be conveniently swept away from any media briefings, and the bought-and-paid-for press won't question it.

[polley 916]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

we seem to manage that very well with LPG, and we used to with CNG as well.  We just need to solve the problem.  Perhaps the issue is that this govt will have racked up so much debt bankrolling hermitville lockdowns and wrecking the economy, investing a little in a distribution network will be viewed as "too costly".  And they laid their bet on electric cars (pssst - do we have a distribution network to support the additional load?!, or the generation capacity?).

What ever happened to cng and lpg cars?

[gjm 3193]

2 hours ago, Olaf said:

Given their performance with Kiwibuild, that'll be conveniently swept away from any media briefings, and the bought-and-paid-for press won't question it.

Whose performance?

[dirtydoogle 383]

3 hours ago, Olaf said:

we seem to manage that very well with LPG, and we used to with CNG as well.  We just need to solve the problem.  Perhaps the issue is that this govt will have racked up so much debt bankrolling hermitville lockdowns and wrecking the economy, investing a little in a distribution network will be viewed as "too costly".  And they laid their bet on electric cars (pssst - do we have a distribution network to support the additional load?!, or the generation capacity?).

 

Given it will take approximately 25-30 years to theoretically change the fleet over, we can probably manage the extra 2 megawatts of load that we can almost already manage anyway

And we will all be far to impoverished to own a car by then, anyway. And I'll probably die of boredom or a messy self flagulation related death in a Leaf 

[dirtydoogle 383]

2 hours ago, polley said:

What ever happened to cng and lpg cars?

Cheap to own Jap imports and Big Oil conspiracy i guess

[jon dee 500]

From a practical and environmental viewpoint, we should be considering this...

Based in Canada, Carbon Engineering’s Direct Air Capture system directly removes CO2 from the atmosphere, purifies it, and produces a pipeline-ready compressed CO2 liquid using only energy and water. This CO2 can be combined with non-fossil fuel-generated hydrogen, to produce ultra-low carbon intensity hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline, diesel, and Jet Fuel-A.

https://energypost.eu/extract-co2-from-our-air-use-it-to-create-synthetic-fuels/

A Carbon Engineering staff member holds clean synthetic fuel made from Carbon Engineering’s Direct Air Capture system and hydrogen split from water. / SOURCE: Carbon Engineering

So why fcuk around with building an entire new distribution network for hydrogen when you can manufacture and use a synthetic fuel that can easily be distributed thru existing networks. And it helps remove a major greenhouse gas from the air we breathe. Works for me

Cheers...

[gjm 3193]

7 minutes ago, jon dee said:

So why fcuk around with building an entire new distribution network for hydrogen when you can manufacture and use a synthetic fuel that can easily be distributed thru existing networks. And it helps remove a major greenhouse gas from the air we breathe. Works for me

Still needs hydrogen, but the production and storage can be localised to the production environment. No distribution required. ✔️

[jon dee 500]

NZ has some experience in the manufacture of synthetic fuels thru the Gas to Gasoline plant at Motunui. One of those plants is apparently mothballed due to gas supply issues... hence the lack of methanol production that killed off production of e85 fuel. Not being a nuclear surgeon I don't know how feasible it would be, but maybe that plant could be re-purposed to process captured CO2 and clean Hydrogen into a synthetic fuel.

Old school Hydrogen producers use brown coal and steam and magic to generate Hydrogen with a byproduct of a much greater quantity of CO2. In typically eco-sensitive manner the plan is to bury this CO2 in depleted oil wells much as nuclear waste is buried underground. This is called hiding your sh*t so that future generations can deal with the problem. Becoming carbon neutral is a kind of political shell game... never mind how dirty the manufacturing process might be... feel the purity of the end product  

Cheers...

[polley 916]

50 minutes ago, jon dee said:

NZ has some experience in the manufacture of synthetic fuels thru the Gas to Gasoline plant at Motunui. One of those plants is apparently mothballed due to gas supply issues... hence the lack of methanol production that killed off production of e85 fuel. Not being a nuclear surgeon I don't know how feasible it would be, but maybe that plant could be re-purposed to process captured CO2 and clean Hydrogen into a synthetic fuel.

Old school Hydrogen producers use brown coal and steam and magic to generate Hydrogen with a byproduct of a much greater quantity of CO2. In typically eco-sensitive manner the plan is to bury this CO2 in depleted oil wells much as nuclear waste is buried underground. This is called hiding your sh*t so that future generations can deal with the problem. Becoming carbon neutral is a kind of political shell game... never mind how dirty the manufacturing process might be... feel the purity of the end product  

Cheers...

Wasn't motunui for producing methanol from natural gas? Nothing to do with ethanol....?

 

E85 disappeared when covid turned up and people were paying $150 a liter for it. Gull even sold off their ethanol stash for hand sanitizer instead of fuel.

Edited February 9, 2022 by polley

[jon dee 500]

Yes, you are correct... my bad The ethanol was manufactured by Fonterra and diverted for use in making hand sanitizer for protection against the spread of covid. The Gas to gasoline plant did this before cutting back... 

The Synfuel gas-to-gasoline complex is sited within 180 hectares of land at Motunui, Taranaki. It is designed to convert 52–55 PJ per annum of natural gas into 570, 000 tonnes (14, 450 barrels per stream day) of high octane gasoline.

The conversion of gas to gasoline (GTG) takes place in two stages: first gas to methanol (GTM) and second methanol to gasoline (MTG). The two stages are integrated into a single complex to achieve optimum efficiency in management and operation.

So still possibly has the potential to be re-purposed if a plant for generating hydrogen was built in Taranaki.

Cheers...

 

[lord_jagganath 421]

all these ideas are grand, but it requires a "big" government that is not beholden to boards of publicly traded companies, nor can it operate like one. the notion that everything must be done for profit has resulted in the mire we find ourselves in. 

[jon dee 500]

EU figures from 2019 claim that the transport sector contributes 30% of the total CO2 emissions. In that sector 72% is attributable to all forms of road transport. Cars account for 60% of the road transport emissions. So when looking at the big picture, cars are responsible for 60% of 72% of 30% of CO2 production.... FARKKKKK !!!!!! That's awful !!!!! lets take the big stick to road transport and force them to reduce emissions   Let's force everyone into expensive battery powered cars   

But wait... 60% of 72% is 43% and 30% of 43% is 13% so cars are only producing 13% of CO2 emissions in the EU. That's not good, but why not do something about the evil bastards that produce the other 87% of CO2 emissions ?? 

Hey what do you do if you are a politician ?? Be like trump and kick the sh*t out of the little guys while turning a blind eye to your rich pals. Choose the easy options, ignore science and obfuscate hard. QED. Now, any more questions ?

Cheers... 

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2914]

It appears that Hyundai are doing a bit of work in this same field, and are setting up a sample network in Aussie. Small sites that both produce the hydrogen fuel and fill the vehicles with it, to support their test cars, SUVs and heavy trucks.

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

Any investment in this area will be painted as subsidising fossil fuels. The real problems we face are ideological.

There are many waste to energy schemes overseas and we ought to produce enough waste to make it work. We have terrain just crying out for more dams. Sadly the focus is on planting pine trees on the worlds most efficient farms, and importing a mix of very expensive new and half worn out 2nd hand electric cars. The Minister responsible for energy spoke of building 4.5 wind farms per year, this has proven to be all talk. Plans to upgrade the distribution network must be a state secret, because so little is talked about it. And still we aren't allowed to say the "n" word.

[dirtydoogle 383]

42 minutes ago, Young Thrash Driver said:

The Minister responsible for energy spoke of building 4.5 wind farms per year, this has proven to be all talk. Plans to upgrade the distribution network must be a state secret, because so little is talked about it. And still we aren't allowed to say the "n" word.

4.5 a year is probably a smidgen over estimated when it took 11 years to gain consent and begin building Turitea windfarm, which isn't finished yet. 

Was plenty of talk about infrastructure projects (current and planned) at the EEA2021 conference when we were there, I guess its just not particularly sexy for news these days