Forvia (Faurecia) promises hydrogen cheaper than battery cars in 2030

[gjm 3193]

For Patrick Koller, boss of the new entity resulting from the merger between Faurecia and Hella, hydrogen is the real solution for the future to massively decarbonize mobility. It not only solves use case and economic model issues, but above all, it restores industrial sovereignty that could be taken by China in the case of battery-powered electric cars. Patrick Koller ensures that Sybio, his joint venture with Michelin,  will be able to provide very competitive solutions from 2030.

For Koller, Symbio - a company specializing in fuel cells, founded in 2010 by Fabio Ferrari, in which Michelin entered the capital in 2014 before transforming it into a joint venture with Faurecia in 2019 -  is "a jewel, a diamond to conserve ".

He says the hydrogen car will compensate for the shortcomings of the battery-powered electric car. According to him, they very different solutions. The first is an issue of sovereignty related to metal supplies. "We are going to move from a dependence on oil to an even stronger dependence on the rare earth elements currently needed for electrification, " he replied to journalists during the presentation of Forvia's half-year results. “90% of metal refining is done in China, ” he added. "While we only need platinum that can be recycled from catalytic converters" to make fuel cells.

France has extensive experience with the hydrogen technology value chain. From an automotive perspective, the sector produces tanks (an essential and very expensive element to withstand the pressure), depressurization valves and the fuel cell. Symbio has also just opened a factory near Lyon which should make it possible to increase the production of fuel cells on a large scale in order to lower their unit price. The French hydrogen industry also includes hydrogen producers such as Air Liquide, but also EDF and Engie, which are investing massively in green hydrogen production capacity. Finally, a start-up, Hopium, even aims to produce very high-end hydrogen cars, to complete a quasi-sovereign value chain.

For Patrick Koller, there is another major issue with the hydrogen car. According to him, this technology effectively solves the infrastructure problem posed by electric vehicles. Motorway areas will have to be massively equipped with fast charging stations, up to 80 per service station, but the cost of this infrastructure will not be borne by any economic model. "The investments required on the main axes are colossal to meet the needs of a few days a year," he says.

Speaking of the economic model, the Koller estimates that he will be able to offer a complete hydrogen traction chain for a 100 kWh car for between 7,000 and 8,000 euros in 2030. “I don't think that battery technology will reach this price."

Patrick Koller cites an increasing number of contracts and that his order book for the hydrogen activity has now reached 500 million euros. The contract with Stellantis (Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroën, Dodge, DS, Fiat, Fiat Professional, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Mopar, Opel, Peugeot, Ram and Vauxhall) is an excellent opportunity, particularly in light commercial vehicles in Europe, but above all in American pick-ups, the most profitable segment of the market.

The market potential is colossal, and present a solution to decarbonize the automotive industry.

Koller strongly believes in carbon-free mobility (but not in 2035 contrary to the obligation adopted by the European Union), and that hydrogen will be the real solution. He qualifies, however, by insisting on the fact that the battery car has real arguments in many cases of use, in particular exclusively urban mobility. But he goes further than questions of mobility and judges that hydrogen will provide an answer to industrial decarbonization, and will make it possible to store energy.

For now, however, the automotive market lacks models. Only Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have marketed cars (with BMW on their way), while waiting for the French Hopium. But for Patrick Koller, the first models will eventually arrive... He believes even Tesla will eventually get there.

[jon dee 500]

AMEN to the above. When you consider the primary source of the battery raw material and the country dominating EV battery manufacture, the EV industry is severely limiting its options. No different to Europe's dependence on Russian gas coming back to bite them on the ass.

Cheers...

[lord_jagganath 421]

South Africa stands to gain from platinum growth. hope Muskie doesn't get involved.

[dirtydoogle 383]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:10 AM, jon dee said:

AMEN to the above. When you consider the primary source of the battery raw material and the country dominating EV battery manufacture, the EV industry is severely limiting its options. No different to Europe's dependence on Russian gas coming back to bite them on the ass.

Cheers...

Problem is, currently Europe are heavily dependent on the gas from Russia to produce hydrogen (Natural Gas Reformation)
They will have to do an incredible scale up on renewables to make any green hydrogen, and that's expensive and relatively inefficient
The FCEV set up is a lot less mineral heavy and planet wrecking than anything we have currently though. I believe it's approx 50gm of platinum for an average Bosch fuel cell, I would imagine the whole cell has less impact on the dolphins than manufacturing a DPF

No eating our cakes.

[jon dee 500]

There are certain things that are difficult to discuss in a rational manner... religion, politics, safety and how to save the planet. In what by any yardstick (metre rule just doesn't sound right) has been an incredibly short time, the world has gone from not giving a sh*t about global warming to near panic. The media is full of headlines about melting icecaps, record breaking floods, rampaging bush fires and how we must all beat our fossil fueled cars into ecologically correct mobility vehicles.  

Adversity is the mother of invention. Not all that long ago there was a war that involved most of the major western countries and when hostilities cut off supplies of certain essential raw materials, necessity drove the combatants to invent/discover/modify/adapt to find alternative solutions. War has the same effect on otherwise complacent scientists and engineers as a cattle prod has on a recalcitrant steer. 

Likewise, when one finds oneself facing a moral dilemma, like for instance, choosing between freezing to death and running a heater using cheap power from a nuclear reactor, suddenly nuclear power stations don't look quite so threatening   So we can expect to see the rapid development of some new technologies and alternative energy solutions when the full implications of the sanctions placed on Russia manifest themselves. 

Anyone or any country that is foolish enough to think that making life tough for the Russian people is going to cause them to knuckle under has obviously not read about the siege of Leningrad. Putin knows that he has western Europe by the short and curlies and just like Xi he knows that no-one is going to step in and try and stop him doing whatever he decides. 

What we are seeing today are kneejerk stopgap measures that politicians love as it shows the world that they are doing something. But they are only short term solutions to long term problems. Excavating a hole in a mountain to store nuclear waste or dumping it in the ocean is not exactly doing the planet any favours. Maybe Musk can use his rockets to fire waste into the sun... that really would be an achievement !!! 

Cheers...

Edited July 29, 2022 by jon dee

[gjm 3193]

Green hydrogen cheaper in Europe than natural gas

Also, a joint venture by BP and Iberdrola plan to produce 600,000 tonnes of green hydrogen in Spain, Portugal and the UK.

Meanwhile in NZ...? 😢  There is some activity but it is sooo slow. Talking to FirstGas, they expect something to start happening by 2035.

[jon dee 500]

The problem is that NZ is prone to political posturing... we might only be a Dachshund but our leaders like to run with the big dogs. If you like, we seem to need to have to prove that our collective pen is mightier than anyone else's pen is   And that leads us to want to be among the first to sign up to any pact or global agreement on containing and reducing greenhouse gases / global warming. We set the country goals that realistically need decades to achieve, and then flounder about looking for easy ways to meet those goals to the timeline that we agreed. 

Using forestry as a carbon sink seemed like a good idea twenty years ago, but now that the trading of carbon credits has become well established it seems that growing trees and selling the credits does not do a lot to achieve a reduction in emissions in NZ. Big polluters just buy the credits and add the cost to their products  Fcuk... who could have foreseen that ??? Well, obviously not NZ politicians. 

Now the answer is electrify everything, cull our dairy herds and get everyone to drink oat milk. 

If the world can manage to get over it's irrational fear of atomic energy the door is opened to virtually unlimited electric energy without the need to dam every river and upset centuries old ecologically sound farming and fishing cultures. Yes, getting rid of the spent fuel rods is currently a sticking point, but given that China has more than 50 reactors in service and plans to build 150 more in the next 15 years, how long do you think it will be before they develop a way to recycle spent  fuel ?? 

Why reinvent the wheel just because a proven technology does not have a big green sticker on the box ??

Cheers...

[gjm 3193]

3 hours ago, jon dee said:

... given that China has more than 50 reactors in service and plans to build 150 more in the next 15 years, how long do you think it will be before they develop a way to recycle spent  fuel ?? 

The Chinese are ever bit as short-sighted as everyone else. They can't see past a multi-billion population - hence the global buy-up of anything food or water related, despite having a huge country to use. Yes - there are issues in satisfactorily using the land they have, but that would make more sense than buying stuff from around the world and shipping it.

Hydrogen could provide a way for NZ to become more independently powered. The tech exists although it's in infancy. It's the apparent lack of effort that is a concern. FirstGas don't even feature on the NZ Hydrogen Council, and a key member - Hiringa Energy - is essentially a husband and wife business.

 

 

[jon dee 500]

It seems logical to me that the big oil companies will be at the forefront of development of hydrogen as a combustion engine fuel. They have the investment capital and a vested interest in maintaining dominance of the transport fuels market. 

So while I have no doubt that there will be some entrepreneurs and special interest groups that see an opportunity to get a slice of the pie, realistically the most likely outcome is some kind of joint venture between oil companies and specialist hydrogen gas manufacturers. Fuel cells on the other hand represent an alternative and competing development path to direct combustion of hydrogen, one that can either complement existing battery technology or displace batteries altogether.

The dividing line between the competing technologies appears to be vehicle type and intended use. So perhaps instead of drawing up battle lines a better solution would be to allow both to develop to their full potential and let the consumer decide which suits his/her requirements better ? Improved technology always comes at a price... evolution and changing attitudes to important issues takes time. 

Cheers...