Ignition System ??

[*Glenn* 854]

I have a missing link in my project car

I know exactely what I'm using as far as motor, trans, diff, brakes, suspension, cooling system, manifolds, fuel system etc.

But I need some help

I have a shopping list, but I'm not going there untill I have a solution to my ignition delema

I was going to use an E28 distributor & cam in the M30 motor, but thats involved and not accurate

I have designed a 6 cylinder hall effect triggering system using 6 hall sensors to fit inside the motronic distributor cap housing using E46 coil over ignition coils.

But I need some advise on where to go next ( or start again ). I need ignition advance with engine load control without getting too silly.

I want to have direction with this project & dont want to try this, then try that

I'm going to use a M30 3.5litre with side draught carbs. Not using motronic or injection

Any clued up sparkies on the forum that can help me with this ???

Would appreciate some help with this

Cheers

Glenn

[will 169]

Glenn, been having some more thoughts on this, will contact you when I unscramble them into some better sense..

Will

[barf 0]

I reccomend tying your fuel and spark management together whatever you do. I reccomend Megasquirt-II for this it worked well for me but i'm a sparky ;-)

MS-II features with latest firmware are beyond all other product, good prediction algorithm for engine angle. when fuel injecting, X-tau compensates for wall-wetting in cylinders. RAM and NV flash memory so can change tune without re-flash while engine running. cannot reccomend bmw computer for tuning but link and motec also are good. megasquirt spark control is based from MAP/MAF-or-any-combination-of, TPS and advanced measurment of engine speed and accel/deceleration.

ONE THING: they are not plug and play - you will need to learn ALOT, there is no plug it in and drive with 500hp button. the result from megasquirt depends of skill with eletric system and tuning as seperate matters.

your engine is very new, the factory timing source should always be used where possible and could be one or two variable reluctor pickup - mine on m20b25 is in the flywheel casing it is a toothed wheel with one tooth missing which usually denotes a TDC. the coil-on-plug system poses challenge does the unit have built in ignitor module? (i only have old bmw) the MS2-Extra firmware should suit your purpose with some work req'd to install new VB921 drivers on spare outputs but angle input(s) if no built-in-driver (ie low-tech coil-on-plug) but should be simple if you have a skilled engineer to do the work.

not many in NZ doing Megasquirt installs that I know of, I would love to help but i'm in christchurch and barely even get time to tune mine. good luck with the project hopefully there are some simpler solutions offered

[will 169]

Barf, Glenn is using sidedraught carbs, not fuel injection. He is using the older M30 3.5 motor in this project, so all he has to control is the ignition (timing, spark, advance/retard etc..) via electronic methods..

Will

[barf 0]

thanks will but i understand perfectly

the megasquirt can control spark and fuel, indenpendantly of one-another providing you know what you are doing, or do i give bmw owners too much credit?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...-unit-p-65.html

Edited January 28, 2008 by barf

[*Glenn* 854]

thanks will but i understand perfectly

the megasquirt can control spark and fuel, indenpendantly of one-another providing you know what you are doing, or do i give bmw owners too much credit?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasqu...-unit-p-65.html

BMW owners deserve all the credit in the world for choosing BMW

Achtung

[CamB 48]

Wasted spark (skyline?) plus some sort of ignition only control (like spark side of MegaSquirt, or various other options)? Using wasted spark means you don't need to know which piston is at TDC (like you would with coil on plug).

Do any of the M30 engines come with a toothed flywheel?

[barf 0]

spot on camb will need 3 spark outputs from the megasquirt to two plugs each (assuming firing order), like skyline yes

[CamB 48]

spot on camb will need 3 spark outputs from the megasquirt to two plugs each (assuming firing order), like skyline yes

Just bothered to actually READ the other thread, so there were motronic m30s, and I guess a toothed flywheel is out there.

Otherwise it needs a toothed pulley and sensor, or some other method. I'd think that would be harder, more expensive, and compromise room up front which I'm guessing is in hot demand.

[barf 0]

sensor on camshaft aswell as flywheel will be req'd for cam-sync for the wasted spark, distributor would certainly be easier ;-)

also for safety (scrutineering requirement) is to have fuel pump controlled by computer (ie only when engine is running), even with carbeurettor i assume.

[*Glenn* 854]

After a bit of research it seems that a waste spark PDF system is the way to go. Some of the American systems are single pick up systems. But at least I now have options. I can build the unit into the distributor cap housing and run off the camshaft, go coil over plug and trigger 1 & 6, 2 & 5 and 3 & 4 ignition coils. Link & Megasquirt works as well. I only need an ignition system, not the whole system

[CamB 48]

sensor on camshaft aswell as flywheel will be req'd for cam-sync for the wasted spark, distributor would certainly be easier ;-)

But isn't the point of wasted spark that it doesn't need cam sync?

[*Glenn* 854]

But isn't the point of wasted spark that it doesn't need cam sync?

Yes, thats true....I want to trigger from the cam, which I'm lead to believe is possible.

Have the pick up and trigger wheel inside where the old distributor cap goes.

[CamB 48]

Yes, thats true....I want to trigger from the cam, which I'm lead to believe is possible.

Have the pick up and trigger wheel inside where the old distributor cap goes.

Possibly, but it means you can't ditch the distributor (it just sits there looking lonely with no wires in it). Do you want to be able to trigger individual coils? If yes, you need cam based trigger, if no, I reckon crank trigger and wasted spark.

[*Glenn* 854]

Possibly, but it means you can't ditch the distributor (it just sits there looking lonely with no wires in it). Do you want to be able to trigger individual coils? If yes, you need cam based trigger, if no, I reckon crank trigger and wasted spark.

I now have my solution. I can do either, cam based or crank based and machine an alloy cover inplace of the distributor cap with a BMW decal on it....... no ugly bits

[Mike 1]

will this cover be at the front of the motor by the cam chain? if so the cover from the M10 may work.

[mr E34 11]

Is that the cover you need on the front of my M3 race engine???? Slider throttle & BMW custom electronics.

[*Glenn* 854]

will this cover be at the front of the motor by the cam chain? if so the cover from the M10 may work.

Thats a good thought ty, I could try the M10 cover, if not just make a cover for the distributor cap hole on the lathe, fit a BMW decal on it or get it engraved. This also gives me a bit more room up front between the engine and radiator.

BTW, I'm going to go "Link" crank sensored ignition (not wasted spark) its by far the easyest. I've not had to do this before, its not something we get into here at work for customers. It's been very interesting researching this, and I must say I've learnt heaps by doing the research on it. There are quite alot of different systems available for different applications and obviously $$$$. Now I know where I'm headed, have the project all mapped out now.

Its buying time now......motor, g/box & diff.... see the WTB thread

Cheers Glenn

Edited January 30, 2008 by botanymotorworx

[Mike 1]

BTW, I'm going to go "Link" crank sensored ignition (not wasted spark) its by far the easyest.

Cheers Glenn

I'm i little confused, so you are using a dizzy now? If its crank sensed ignition you either need to use a dizzy or wasted spark?

[will 169]

I'm i little confused, so you are using a dizzy now? If its crank sensed ignition you either need to use a dizzy or wasted spark?

Glenn is going to use the LINK ignition module which will get its signal from the crank sensor, from there he is using individual coils so can fire all six independantly or fire 3 in pairs via wasted spark.

[CamB 48]

Glenn is going to use the LINK ignition module which will get its signal from the crank sensor, from there he is using individual coils so can fire all six independantly or fire 3 in pairs via wasted spark.

To fire 6 needs a cam sensor too.

[Mike 1]

thats what i thought, but in the post above me he says its not wasted spark?

[*Glenn* 854]

My original thoughts were either/or. I'm going individual coil firing not wasted spark.

[Mike 1]

right, so in that case you will need a cam position sensor.

what are your reasons for not wanting wasted spark? Only downside is your coils are firing twice as often. The M30 wont be revving to stupid speeds so isn't really a major. just curious?

[*Glenn* 854]

Sorry if I confused every body here....what I was looking for were options

Its not something I've done before, and not something we get into here at work

I know that a few in here have had this experience and I was hoping for some input

This is for my project car, and if you read the thread about it I want to do something completely different. I just dont want to do what everybody else has done before. Putting the M30 into a E30 is tight. Bonnet clearances, vacuum booster and distributor cap to radiator clearances. I have overcome the brake booster problem using the E34 M60 hydraulic booster which runs off the power steering pump with a pressure regulator and accumulator, and I'm going to use carburettors. I can run a trigger system inside the distributor cap cavity and get rid of the cap which gives me more clearance up front, for independant coil firing or I can trigger off the front crankshaft pulley for wasted spark. Those are my options so I can choose either and run "Link" ignition only. Either way gets rid of the distributor cap. I'm going to run E36 coil over spark plug ignition coils or six remote coils and H/T leads.I could also run the Mercedes wasted spark coils which fire 2 cylinders at once using 3 of their coils. And as for carbs....I've looked at Webers and Delorto's, but I'm not sure yet. I found this and I'm comunicating with Bogg Brothers for more info. Webers & Delorto's are old technoligy and this might be the way to go. Motorcycle carburettors are at least year 2000 technoligy and parts are readily available. Tunings no problem if you have the skills and the right gear. Ive set up multiple carbs on 4 & 6 cylinder motorbikes for racing. ( shyte!! I'd have to buy 6 vacuum guages or make up a mercury board )

This = http://www.boggbros.co.uk/gallery6.html

I hope this clarifies what I'm trying to do. Blair @ Woodhead Electrical (Ph. 5704540) has been very helpfull with me on this.

Cheers

Glenn

PS: I'm going to try and get Blair on here as a sponsor he's a great guy and very knowledgeable with BMW and other Euro electronics.