Camber plates e36

[thorburn 121]

Is there anywhere in this country that sells adjustable camber plates for e36's?(in particular 328)

Also am wondering what brands people are using and how you would rate them?

At this point i am considering importing some vorshlag camber plates but would like to hear of other options

[|ncary 0]

Would be much, much cheaper to buy camber plate from the States. All the ones I tried to get in Nz were custom made and about 1000 dollars..

Ground Control plates, here, have caster adjustment as well.. (helps the high speed stability)

[thorburn 121]

thank you for the info

[lidistick 70]

I have M3 offset bushes that give the 328i more caster. It was going to go on my car but I never got round to doing it.

[|ncary 0]

You can put camber plates in if you want but what will make your 328 handle better is more caster and LESS (negative) camber -

Really depends how you drive and how much roll the car has.

For example, I have rather stiff springs and stiff 50 profile Michelins on the front of my car, running -3.4 degrees of camber, and I have massive wear on the outer shoulders, the inside of the tires looks close to new.

So it's a case by case thing.

[|ncary 0]

How could you say it's not a case by case basis?? Not everyone is a driving god, pushing the car all the way. Any car with adjustable settings would be different depending on the preferences of the driver, I'd call that a 'case-by-case basis'.

Even with spring rates over 3 times stiffer than e30 M3 springs, the huge front camber is used to full-tire-contacting effect because of the bodyroll made by the 'G-Forcez', it's a combination where you need to be cornering hard to actually have grip, otherwise I'd be understeering with only the inside of the tire touching the ground, this would not suit everyone (case-by-case basis?)

The outside of the tire wears accordingly from this, (still want more camber, but the new uprated sway bars will negate that). Tires pressures and alignment settings (1mm toe out and 9deg of caster) are pre-researched to be perfect. I've done my investigation.

If you want to talk extemely technical theory about angles and geometry, I can, and will. Still have so, so much to learn though. But we don't have many race-car enginners on here so there will be a lot of gaps in the knowledge. But I'm not one to ever spread assumptions and mis-information.

And car manufacturers put low profile tires on their new cars for a couple of reasons. Mostly looks, and then a bit of performance. They will build tendancy to undeersteer into the chassis so that highway onramp racers don't get snap oversteer spins from the lack of flex in the tire.

[No name user 379]

How could you say it's not a case by case basis?? Not everyone is a driving god, pushing the car all the way. Any car with adjustable settings would be different depending on the preferences of the driver, I'd call that a 'case-by-case basis'.

Even with spring rates over 3 times stiffer than e30 M3 springs, the huge front camber is used to full-tire-contacting effect because of the bodyroll made by the 'G-Forcez', it's a combination where you need to be cornering hard to actually have grip, otherwise I'd be understeering with only the inside of the tire touching the ground, this would not suit everyone (case-by-case basis?)

The outside of the tire wears accordingly from this, (still want more camber, but the new uprated sway bars will negate that). Tires pressures and alignment settings (1mm toe out and 9deg of caster) are pre-researched to be perfect. I've done my investigation.

If you want to talk extemely technical theory about angles and geometry, I can, and will. Still have so, so much to learn though. But we don't have many race-car enginners on here so there will be a lot of gaps in the knowledge. But I'm not one to ever spread assumptions and mis-information.

And car manufacturers put low profile tires on their new cars for a couple of reasons. Mostly looks, and then a bit of performance. They will build tendancy to undeersteer into the chassis so that highway onramp racers don't get snap oversteer spins from the lack of flex in the tire.

hope you don't mind i join in but your correct but for the most its very hard to set any car up to one setting on the road.

our roads are crap and ever changing surfaces which makes it hard to suit both drivers wants and roads supplies.

even my e36 with springs and bilsteins is great on some roads and hard on others,on the other hand my e34 toy is outstanding with what ive done till the other bits go in but you cant have it all then again its going to be a track car so who cares

[kerrynzl 3]

Haha!

The standard sheep answer is "depends on driving style"

Fact: nobody "DRIVES" a car at 100% of its handling ability on the road [ they might randomly get close to this with "bravery", then bullshit themselves later ]

On the Track in a controlled environment all drivers get close to 100% of their ability, then try and improve from there.

Now lets get back to the Camber discussion;

The purpose of camber is to have 1/2 a degree neg camber at maximum cornering load [ body roll ] so they usually dial in a bit of static neg to counter-act body roll [ note cantilever tyres require a bit more than 1/2 degree ]

Fact: The softer the roll resistance the more static neg is required

Fact: The higher the cornering loads the more static neg is required

Fact: The higher the Centre of Gravity [ above the roll centre ] the more static neg is required

So if you put stiff springs and lower the car and drive it like a 'Nana' you need LESS negative camber.

Race cars are always driven hard yet their tyre wear is usually even [ compared to poorly set-up street pretenders ]

On Oval track cars where they only turn left , they have positive camber on the left and negative on the right.

Having lots of Caster has the same effect [as an oval car] but makes the car heavier to steer

If your car is wearing the outside of the tyre with hard springs and lots of negative it has too much Toe-Out [ caused by caster ]

Too much Toe-Out also wears the outer tyres heavily on cars with lots of caster [ both wheels end up with induced positive camber ]

Negative Camber doesn't cause understeer, it is used to dial out understeer [ too much Front weight bias and/or too much Front roll resistance is the main cause of understeer ]

Race cars use Camber plates along with different springs to dial in the settings to the conditions [ they set the camber by tyre temperature ]

For a street car, I would go with the M3 set-up [ it's good enough for some basic track usage as is ] I doubt if any street cowboys would actually NEED anything better [ unless they want to show off their shiny bling parts, trying to impress the ignorant masses ]

We can all defend our ego's here .

[pjay 8]

This guy: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/C...n-251589311.htm

[|ncary 0]

To save writing something massive and technical that will just get laughed off like above, I have this picture.

350lb/in springs (standard e30 front springs are 115 I believe), -3.4 degrees of camber, 1mm of toe-out (a very, very, very small, quite standard amount of toe-out), 24mm sway bar, and Michelin Pilot Preceda tires on 32psi cold. Doing some, hate to use this term: Trailing braking into a corner.

Look at where the outside edge of the tire is, it is getting scrubed to death. This poor set of tires gets abuse like this every weekend, and has done for a year almost. Could increase the tire pressure.. Could increase the spring rate.. Could run more camber.. but it's a daliy driver too, so one or two compromises have to be made.

That's why there is wear. There is nothing 'fundamentally wrong' with the set up. It works an absolutle treat, especially on the track. Will have to use the Iphone's G-force meter and see what it can do on a skid pad. Then post it back up here sometime.

And crikey, it's like I murdered some jews, relax.

[kerrynzl 3]

The Toe-Out is usually the problem , you are scuffing the outer edges on the straights [ plus it'll be real fun under hard braking ]

The Old skool of thinking was to use toe-out to counteract "camber thrust" [ when 2 cone shaped wheels drive towards each other ]

Nowadays they use "Dynamic Camber" [ induced ] instead of Static Camber [ when it's parked ]

Look at the front of a Open Wheeler and you'll notice the upper wishbone points down in the centre [ some cars have shorter upper wishbones for a similar effect on compression , but they also get unwanted negative on droop ]

A MacPherson strut [ especially when lowered , 'as all cars should be' ] will inherently induce dynamic negative when compressed and less under droop [ simple triangulation here ] so it can do with less static negative.

Putting too large a tyre on a skinny rim will also wear the outer edge, because the outer sidewall tries to stand-up under hard cornering loads while the inner sidewall lays flat.

Good to see you are "Trail Braking" , using this technique can be hard on tyres especially if you overcook it, You should try a diamond pattern on the Apex, it's a really good 'Dive Bombing" technique to learn for short track dual sprints [ hard on Tyres though ]

Keep Having Fun , 'cause the prize money ain't that great

[CamB 48]

On the M3, I'm pretty sure I only got to 9 deg (or 8.x) with the combo of both Evo lower control arms and strut tops, AND the offset bushings. With that much caster, the steering is ... weighty. I'd have no idea whether it has enough camber, I don't drive it fast enough to stress the tyres, haha.

I have only about 2 deg on the 2002 and I only wear the outside of the front tyres significantly at the track when I drive badly (understeering into the corners by going in too hot) or have the wrong tyre pressure.

[Wom 0]

You can put camber plates in if you want but what will make your 328 handle better is more caster and LESS (negative) camber -

You can get this with offset lower control arm bushes standard M3 ones are harder than Urethane after market and only $340 from memory. You can also fit the M3 top mount which will go straight in and increase the caster to close what the M 3 has but if you do this you MUST change the outer ball joints to solid types.

Standard caster is 4 degrees, offset bushes gives about 5.5 degrees and bushes and top plates gives about 6.5 degrees you can then run less camber - I run -0.8 for performance driving compared to -1.5 on standard caster and now get even wear across the tyre, sharper turn in and better ultimate grip.

If you use the camber plates to get caster it is more expensive and you can only get about 5 degrees and then you need to do the bushes so it does not stack up

Hi, I'm keen to do this ... I'm presuming that this will work just the same on a car with the motorsport upgrades?

Car is a 1996 323i Coupe with factory motorsport options

I don't really want to go and spend the money on the bushes and find that it doesn't fit

Will it make much of a difference just doing the bushes and leaving the top mount alone?

[|ncary 0]

Great points Kerry, but Toe-out won't cause the outside edge to wear in my case.. the last 3cm of the outside of my tire doesn't even touch the ground when driving around normally (A lot of static camber). When driving through a dusty patch there is a nice black strip of clean tire on the shoulder. Certainly dynamic camber gain is the best, and at low speed on tight corners this car has way too much camber gain from the large caster and large static camber and gets a lovely dose of understeer, but increase the speed, decrease the steering angle and increase the load on the tires and it really works oh so well.

And toe out is not bad under braking, you have the steering wheel in your hands, if the car starts getting squirlley it's pretty easy to turn the wheel, correct, and keep it on line. Toe out gives you front-end mid-corner grip apparntly, which is very nice and handy for this front heavy car.

And just another pic that shows that big negative camber certainly works for some, the front right here is doing a fantastic job sitting perfectly perpendicular (rear sways are a bit stiff or I have mastered this trail braking (look at left rear wheel off the ground eeeek) Most likely a bit of both.) *edit: Hmm that left front could almost be off the ground as well! Damn oversized sway bars

Edited November 19, 2009 by Incary

[DRTDVL 0]

could you guys use something like this tophat to get the amount of camber and caster you want?

[CamB 48]

Yes, although it may be marginal on legality.

Henry - that **looks** like understeer (I realise it might not be).

[|ncary 0]

Heh, yes the steering angle is a bit much. But it is not understeer at all. Just a warm, grippy Michelin.