Question on new 318 / 320 race series.

[Gus 5]

a race series without cages?

nice one

[bmwsparkle 3]

a race series without cages?

nice one

it says in those sheets that it is recommended.

Was checking the wording on that to see if it had to be done.

Was just asking a question. So sorry that im a complete and utter race n00b compared to you.

[E30stz 0]

it mentions "Only steel or single piece aluminum alloy road wheels are permitted of 14" or 15" diameter, maximum width 7j, offset between et15 and et25"

So does this rule out 14" bottlecaps which have et35 offset?

What offset are 14" and 15" basketweaves ? Anyone know the offset on 14" e30 hubcaps

Edited February 25, 2006 by E30stz

[conrod 1]

it mentions "Only steel or single piece aluminum alloy road wheels are permitted of 14" or 15" diameter, maximum width 7j, offset between et15 and et25"

So does this rule out 14" bottlecaps which have et35 offset?

What offset are 14" and 15" basketweaves ? Anyone know the offset on 14" e30 hubcaps

Offset on 14" baskets are ET30, I just had a look on my car.So these are ruled out. :thumbsdown: Edited February 26, 2006 by conrod

[E30stz 0]

A few pics Colin sent me of the E30 Spec

Cheers

Andy

Edited March 10, 2006 by E30stz

[E30stz 0]

pic #2

[kerrynzl 3]

Who can I contact about this 318/320 series, I am serious about cutting up a Beemer for racing. I would like to see one of these racers in person, If possible. They should allow E36 Beemers as well [there are lots of non-compliant E36's about] The newer BMW creates a different image to Joe-Blow-Spectator [it makes a budget class of racing look like a premier class] If I was a sponsor ,I would prefer the newer shaped cars. Anyway ALL RACING IS GOOD and E30's are plentiful and cheap. email me at '[email protected] 'if you can point me in the right direction to go racing with one of these. I would appreciate the help.Thanx

[cainchapman 0]

email Gerry Hodges on [email protected]

He would be the best person to start with.

The regulations are in the latest Dixi magazine.

[Gus 5]

Colin Briscoe at BMW NZ, the series organizer. Not sure of contact details but if I find will pass on. E36's would be too slow, plus they more difficult to work on, and still more expensive than a comparable e30.

the only prob i see with it is that it really doesnt allow for dual 325targa/320 series car, as there is too much stuff to change back and forth. that would allow the targa guys to run a 'detuned' version of the car.

will be very interesting to see progress on the series.

[E30stz 0]

Colin Briscoe

General Manager Aftersales

BMW Group

New Zealand

Ph + 64 9 573 6977

Fax + 64 9 573 0924

Email:[email protected]

http://www.bmw.co.nz

[kerrynzl 3]

Thanx everyone! The reason I suggested E36's is because all classes need room for evolvement for future survival. Of all the MANZ classes out there only the V8 touring cars are thriving [HQ's, TranZam Lights,Mini 7's,Sentra GT's have all died,or are barely surviving as classes] most of these cars end up as T&C cars. There are over 700 T&C [thoroughbred & classic] race cars in NZ. [where the hell are they all hiding?] The biggest enemy of the E36 is weight [usually caused by all the extra crap that a more modern car has] when the car is stripped down to race spec the difference in weight would be minimal.the other problem with a E36 is most are Slush-Boxes [but you would want all cars to have the same gearboxes and ratio's anyway] Building a circuit car as a dual purpose rally car would require a lot of parts swapping and set-up changes [The only thing I believe that could do both is the engine/gearbox combo] Cheers everyone

[conrod 1]

The "Transam lights" evolved into what is now the NZ V8 touring car, so probably not a good example to use. But I know what you are getting at. I personally don't think another new class needs to be created to cater for E36's, rather a new race series for existing BMW race cars- there are LOADS of them around, and certainly enough to support a series. When I was in England there was a series called the "Vecta Fast Fords" and this was essentially a race series with 3 different classes within one race. Class C was 0-1600cc, class B was up to 2000cc and class A was 2000 and over, including hybrids ( as long as they were Ford powered, eg. Cosworth engined Mk2 Escort) I am going to suggest we could run a similar series in NZ, with class C being the E30 series (until numbers grow to a sustainable level) class B could be cars to say 2.8 litre, which would include E36's and E30's, and class A could be 2800 and over, including Hybrids,Group A's, Supertourers, 2002 Turbos etc. This would allow all of the existing BMW race cars somewhere to play, (rather than having to run your M3 group A in the Super GT class and getting your ass kicked) as well as giving scope to build an E36 or whatever (thinking of myself here too of course!) There are a lot of issues with a structure like this, as certain classes will always favour certain combinations of cars/engines,and this is by no means a definitive set of rules, but a starting point anyway.A limit has to be placed on the number of classes, otherwise the classes become too diluted. What do you guys think of this? :confused:

Edited March 21, 2006 by conrod

[smokenbaby 0]

with class C being the E30 series (until numbers grow to a sustainable level) class B could be cars to say 2.8 litre, which would include E36's and E30's, and class A could be 2800 and over, including Hybrids,Group A's, Supertourers, 2002 Turbos etc

This will cause a nightmare to police the rules, It will make for a very very very slow teching proceedure at the track. The amount of veriable rules to accomodate the various classes, car spec etc would kill the class.

Mazda pro7 is the only sanctioned series class that is growing stronger and in terms of members is one of the biggest on the MANZ register. It is one of the only classes that have embraced the “towards 2015” document from MANZ and is being requested from all North Island tracks as a support class. This has got EVRYTHING to do with the way the class is structured and the GREAT racing that is seen on the track. No other class in the country can hold it's head up as high as Mazda Pro7 Racing. They have kept the class to an affordable level while still introducing newer cars. The class has been around for 15 yrs and couldn't be stronger.

We do still have problems when it comes to teching. Seem I am the Tech officer for the series I know firsthand what a nightmare it is having more than one spec car. Our series 1 cars are a well sorted car these days and I haven't been able to catch anybody out thus far. They have a single spec and only 1 rule book. The Pro7 Plus cars are a different story. There are basically 2 body types. Series 4 and Series 6. Now even though we can run either of the 2 body types, they still have to be from a set Chassis number range, NO special limited edition bodies can be used (Series 6 Sp - Bathurst spec body etc). There are 3 different spec motors they can run, all non turbo. ie.

C10. ENGINE

There are three engine options, being:

Pro7 Plus single specification engine may be used in both Series 4 and Series 6 cars.

Srs 4 original engine in accordance with these regulations for use solely in Srs 4 cars.

Srs 6 original engine in accordance with these regulations for use in either Srs4 or Srs 6 cars.

Pro7 Plus Single Specification Engine: The 13B rotary engine (Wankel type RE), In line two rotor enclosed in housings made from parts from Series 4 and Series 6 MAZDA RX7 model engines, minus turbo and associated plumbing and fittings, shall be used:

Front and rear rotor housing – N3Y2 10S70 and, or N3Y2 10S80 and/or Part No. N3181B10A, and or Part No. N31810B50C, and may have the external sparkplug ledge removed.

Centre housing- N3A1 10D00B. This housing may be drilled and tapped to accept mountings for Srs 4 car installation.

Front end housing- N3F1 10C00.

Rear end housing- - N3YC 10C50 Manual.

All housing sealing faces may be reclaimed.

All other internal parts can come from Srs 4 or Srs 6 engines.

Oil Sump may come from either Srs 4 or Srs 6 engines.

Inlet Manifold: Use of the original Series 4, or Series 6, or a composite manifold made up from Srs 4 upper section and Srs 6 lower section joined by a Control adapter Part number IMA-S4/6-1 is permitted.

Nuts and Bolts may be locked.

Srs 4 Original Engine: The 13B rotary engine (Wankel type RE), In line two rotor enclosed in housings, as fitted to Series (4) Four MAZDA RX7 Turbo FC3S models, minus turbo and associated plumbing and fittings, shall be used:

Front & rear rotor housing- shall be Part No. N3181B10A, and or Part No. N31810B50C, and may have the external sparkplug ledge removed.

Front-end housing shall be Part No. N31810C00B.

Centre housing shall be Part No. N31810D00C.

Rear end housings- shall be Part No. N31810C50A.

End housings and centre housing sealing faces may be reclaimed.

Nuts and Bolts may be locked.

Srs 6 Original Engine; The 13B rotary engine (Wankel type RE), In line two rotor enclosed in housings, as fitted to Series (6) Six MAZDA RX7 Turbo FD3S models, minus turbo and associated plumbing and fittings, shall be used:

Front and rear rotor housing – N3Y2 10S70 and, or N3Y2 10S80, and may have the external sparkplug ledge removed.

Centre housing - N3A1 10D00B. This housing may be drilled and tapped to accept mountings for Srs 4 car installation.

Front end housing - N3F1 10C00.

Rear end housing - N3YC 10C50 Manual.

All housing sealing faces may be reclaimed.

Nuts and bolts may be locked.

10.5 Non Turbo 13B 6 port engines: are specifically prohibited.

10.6 Engine rotors: may be substituted with 13B rotors from any original Mazda, domestic production road cars, including RX8 rotors. Apex seal grooves may be machined larger for the sole purpose of allowing 3 mm apex seals to be fitted.

10.7 Stationary gears: may be substituted with 13B stationary gears from any original Mazda, domestic production road cars, including Mazda RX8 stationary gears. Stationary gears may be modified to allow the fitting of needle bearings from other any original Mazda, domestic 13B production road cars.

10.8 Counterweights: may be from any original Mazda, domestic production road cars.

10.9 Eccentric shafts: shall be original, the oil galleries may be modified, and the oil temperature control valve may be removed or modified, the ball control valves may be modified to increase he rotor oil feed. Competition shafts are not permitted and excessive removal of material when balancing is also not permitted.

Rotor apex seals shall not be ceramic but otherwise are free. Side seals, corner seals & springs are free.

Balancing is authorised for the following components:

The counter weights, flywheel, clutch assembly and eccentric shaft.

The rotors provided the balancing is performed on their end faces within an area 35 mm from the centre of the corner seal.

Flywheel: Aluminium or composite materials are forbidden. Note; a minimum weight and installation specification will be formulated in conjunction with MotorSport NZ for the 2006-2007 season.

Clutch:

Single plate steel diaphragm type. Make and lining material free provided no modification to any associated part is required. The clutch plate friction surface shall be no less than 213 mm.

Twin plate competition type, provided 10kgs is added to the vehicle weight as described in rule 3.1 part (iv).

Automatic oil injection pump: may be removed and replaced by a blanking device

Fuel Injection: All cars shall be fuel injected under article C10: The original or composite class control fuel injection system shall be used excluding the turbo. This shall be controlled by a NIMRRA control ‘Link’ engine management system (computer) that shall:

Specifically exclude traction/launch control and other such functions not necessary to start and run the engine are subject to spontaneous technical checking.

Throttle bodies; S4 turbo, or S6 throttle bodies may be used, no modification down stream of the butterflies is permitted, additional secondary damper butterflies may be removed. Butterfly linkage systems are free. Upstream of the butterflies is free.

Inlet manifold and throttle body gaskets; are free but can not exceed 3 mm in total between any joint.

Inlet Manifold: Pro7 Plus Single Specification engines; refer article 10.2 part (viii), Srs 4 and Srs 6 original engines shall use their original manifolds.

Throttle position sensor: may be fitted.

Oil pump shall remain original.

Oil pressure relief valve settings are free. Dry sumps are prohibited.

Oil cooler: and its location is free.

Oil hoses (flexible) are free, provided Schedule A compliance is maintained.

Oil filler: neck may be modified solely to facilitate cold air box fitment.

Engine mounts; rubber may be substituted.

Drive pulleys and belts are free.

Exhaust system from the external face of the rotor housing is free.

Radiator, radiator hoses, hose fittings, and location are free.

Thermostat and its housing is free.

Cooling fan is free.

C11. INDUCTION SYSTEM

Cold air box and filter type is free but any form of mechanical forced induction including turbo and or super charging is prohibited.

Note; the cold air box could in the future become a control item.

C12. IGNITION SYSTEM

Spark plugs and HT leads are free.

Ignition coils are free.

12.4 Ignition (fuel injection cars) shall be controlled by the NIMRRA control ECU computer, (as detailed in article 10.13), the ignition coil igniters are free.

As you can imagine, it is a real time consuming thing having to tech cars. Not only is it the motor spec, they also run different weights depending on what motor they are using.

Anyway. This is a huge reply. Will let you all ponder on it for a while.

[conrod 1]

I hear what you are saying, but what I am suggesting would require most of the teching in the new E30 class (class "C") with the "A" and "B" classes only having engine capacity restrictions,and maybe a minimum weight,both relatively easy to check. There is the risk of someone dominating "A" class by taking a chequebook approach, as happens in Super GT quite frequently, but I think the main aim would be to :

A. have a class exclusively for BMW's to promote the marque

B. encourage some of the BMW race cars in NZ to get out on the track,there are a lot that compete in Targa, and there are a LOT of superb examples of ex-works cars in our country, with nowhere to go, apart the the Southern festival of speed, and Whittakers, otherwise they must run in classes like Super GT (usually by invitation) where they are not really in their element.

C. encourage new BMW race cars to be built.

I appreciate it would not be a simple thing to implement, but nothing worth having ever was! :thumb:

[Guest Andrew]

The "Transam lights" evolved into what is now the NZ V8 touring car, so probably not a good example to use. But I know what you are getting at. I personally don't think another new class needs to be created to cater for E36's, rather a new race series for existing BMW race cars- there are LOADS of them around, and certainly enough to support a series. When I was in England there was a series called the "Vecta Fast Fords" and this was essentially a race series with 3 different classes within one race. Class C was 0-1600cc, class B was up to 2000cc and class A was 2000 and over, including hybrids ( as long as they were Ford powered, eg. Cosworth engined Mk2 Escort) I am going to suggest we could run a similar series in NZ, with class C being the E30 series (until numbers grow to a sustainable level) class B could be cars to say 2.8 litre, which would include E36's and E30's, and class A could be 2800 and over, including Hybrids,Group A's, Supertourers, 2002 Turbos etc. This would allow all of the existing BMW race cars somewhere to play, (rather than having to run your M3 group A in the Super GT class and getting your ass kicked) as well as giving scope to build an E36 or whatever (thinking of myself here too of course!) There are a lot of issues with a structure like this, as certain classes will always favour certain combinations of cars/engines,and this is by no means a definitive set of rules, but a starting point anyway.A limit has to be placed on the number of classes, otherwise the classes become too diluted. What do you guys think of this? :confused:

I agree somewhat Conrad -

I'd love to get my car out on the track and race with similar performance vehicles (rather than get put into other classic car classes where my wee e30 would get destroyed).

The Porsche race series model has worked well for a long time - and a BMW series should be based on this. Similar to what you have described with the fast Ford racing.

On the track - should be at least 2 races.

E30 Series

E30 Open (with stock motor, only bolt ons) Everything else free (to cover all the E30 rally and dedicated circuit cars). E30s with stock motors and bolt ons will all top out at similar levels of motor performance say 170 odd rwHp. Perhaps handicap this race on qualifying times.

BMW Open - the others. People will soon group into there varying speeds. Again handicap on qualifying times.

The spec of the e30 series needs to be tightened also - the E30 Spec car has (in my view) a pretty average roll cage (not in terms of protection - but unibody stiffness). Obviously an otherwise identical e30 with an awesome roll cage IS going to handle better.

Also - the spring/shock combo is in my eyes wrong. Why have an adjustable shock? I thought we were racing on driving skills not shock setup. Also - the king super low is TOO low to run with a normal Koni SA or Bilstien Sport - the front springs are not captive and the back are virtually on the shock bumpstops. The king springs are REALLY soft also.

There is also not enough front camber. When I was on the track with the E30 Spec car I was able to drive around the outside of it on the left-hander at the end of the taupo straight going much faster - I just have that much more front grip with nearly -4 deg of front camber.

The rear sway bar setup is too soft for high speed corners (pukekohe). I do realise I probably run a completely different setup to most other e30 race cars, but it works incredibly well and is very easy to drive - allowing me to keep up with much better/experienced drivers. I get a slight pushing into high speed corners (Jennian @ around 185 kph) and then completely neutral in the turn with slight oversteer on the way out of it - which works great for me.

I guess my point is - i'd like to see a series with at least full adjustable dampers, camber, sway bars. But then again that kind of removes the point of racing with identical cars - but hey - setup is a big part of racing also!

I also want a series where conrad (and others) and I could battle it out with high powered e30s and completely different setups - it would be badass! If this option DOES become availiable - then i'll turbo my car tommorow.

[Guest Andrew]

Just realising I had ranted pretty much off topic there - we should start some discussion on the actually spec of the e30 spec series. We can then show it to Gerry for his thoughts. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum with pretty specific race/e30 knowledge - so it would be a good thought process.

[Gus 5]

One problem is that you are asking people to spend $15k on a car that is essentially unmodified, slow and therefore would be uncompetitive and not especially exciting to drive in any other other racing series, except this one. And, in my eyes there is not anywhere near enough info on races/running costs/entry fees. Granted, they have probably not been decided yet, but an indication would be nice (ie would there be 4 races or 10 for the season?). Can you run in the series but not every race and still be eligible. I think the racing would be a hell of a lot of fun though. Also, they need to make it clear about using non-sponsored parts (ie can i use my bilsteins, H&R's, race seats, strut braces etc of do i have to go out and buy the 'correct' items?)

also, why not allow body kits? i would be a lot happier if i could have a car that looked decent as well as i could race it....the mtech 1/2 kits would hardly garner any if much aerodynamic advantage, especially at the speeds these cars would go at. i can understand the rear spoilers, but the sides and back, even the front really dont do bugger all.

Edited March 22, 2006 by Gus

[conrod 1]

I agree with some of your points on the new E30 series, but as I don't plan on building one of these cars I don't feel it is my place to comment. I would rather let those who are going to run in this series sort out what they are comfortable with. The Bridgestone Porsches might be a good blueprint to have a look at, but they have not been without issue, so some tweaking of the rules would be required I think. Suggestion to run the new E30 series as a race within a race was just for the first however-many-years it would take to get sufficient numbers (twenty plus cars) to run their own separate race. I guess this idea really needs to be put to current BMW race car owners to see if there would be ongoing support, I know something like this has been discussed for some time, but hadn't heard anything for a while. Perhaps if the support is there (from the racers) it just needs someone to take the reins and get it happening.

[cainchapman 0]

Porsche have made it work. 924's and 911 Turbos competing and it's exciting racing with various classes in the same field.

However it is a cheap form of racing, you can easily spend $15k on a Kart.

Although a good 944 Turbo could be set-up for about the same and be a much better car.

[conrod 1]

I agree, my last Kart cost me $17K and that was without any spares! And it was costing me around $1000 per meeting to run. It was about then I thought "bugger this" or something to that effect, and decided to sell it and build a car. Not sure about a $15K 944T- I think it will cost you that just to buy a stock one, let alone prep it for racing. Just while we are on the cost thing, the last two E30's that I was involved in building for Targa etc. cost about $30K each to build, and that was without any engine work, and watching spending very closely. I'm sure Andrew knows this too well, so $15K for an E30 race car is still pretty good, even if it is "detuned" a bit in spec.

[cainchapman 0]

944 is less than $10k to buy and then strip (no cost), put in a roll-cage, tyres and pad upgrade. If you get the turbo, 250hp standard.

Much better than a 318 and handles better.

To make it a serious race car, you have to double that. But a 318/320 car stripped with a roll-cage, isn't a serious race car either.

[conrod 1]

My point was that you won't get a 944 Turbo for $10K, a non-turbo yes, but when I last checked a Turbo will cost you $15 to $20K. And yes, certainly a good handling car. But we are not here to promote the merits of Pork are we?!!!!!!!!!!

[kerrynzl 3]

I know what you mean , I've got $150k tied up in a schedule K historic muscle car.And the promoters put my 36year old car up against Sport & GT cars where I don't have a chance at competing with. Hey this new Beemer class looks like cheap fun,If everyone has the same rules it should be close racing![everyone has 2degrees negative etc] I just like the visual appeal of the E36 [bTCC style] If I had a choice,I would build a E36 [i'd even repower it with a M20 if required to by the rule makers [NZ V8's run old carby 308's & 302's in modern cars] Remember nobody likes rules,and we all think our own situation is unique. It usually takes a hobby type racer 12 months to build a basic car [there ain't are ex-champ winning cars for sale yet]so I think it is foolish to start a class that looks obsolete before it gets to the first meeting. The biggest problem for racers [& promoters] is having nobody to race, so I'll build a E30 anyway [My championship winning car will be sold when E36's get introduced]by then I'll probably want an E46......................... You know you are a racer when...................You think the last line of our national anthem is "gentlemen start your engines!"

[conrod 1]

Why don't you run in Central or Auckland Muscle Cars? As far as starting a series that looks obsolete, I guess you only have to look at the E30 series in Australia or England, it is hugely popular even though the cars are approaching 20 years old. And although I won't be building one, I still think it will be a hit. As for E36's, remember that these are now 2 models old (E46 and now E90) so they are far from "modern". This brings me back to my suggestion about a three tier race, where you could run an E36 if you wanted to, against E30's, and even 2002 Turbo's! Coming up with a good set of rules would be the hard part, as well as policing them. I am typing this as I am cutting out cardboard templates for my E30 racer!

Edited March 22, 2006 by conrod

[cainchapman 0]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/SearchResu...go.x=25&go.y=14

Don't get me wrong Conrad, I agree with you. I couldn't think of much better than seeing Insane BMW's like the Delmont 2002 versus Super Touring cars, E36 M3, etc and E30's.

However, the guys in the VW class are able to evolve their cars as their budget allows.

IMO, the 318/320 class whilst being fun for the drivers, won't be a spectacle. It is not much better than Taxi racing (NZV8's), albeit alot cheaper.

I'm a fan of when Bathurst was open to all comers, racing is always (and should be) about the guys with the most money winning. Formula Ford is a good example of a single car class not being equal to all.