Is being "NZ New" important?

[Apex 693]

And you're complaining?

The second hand Japanese import industry has been the best thing that has happened to the New Zealand motoring industry.

Most of you on this site wouldn't remember what it was like before the Jap imports started. N.Z. new cars were the poverty pack versions and very highly priced, then along came the imports with power steering, electric windows, air conditioning etc. and about half the price of the NZ new equivalants.

You guys would not be able to afford your E28's E30's etc if we didn't have the imports.

I will admit some dodgy cars were brought in by some unscrupulous dealers, but the majority of us dealers are honest people striving to make a living, and selling the best possible cars that we can get.

Im sorry Brian but yea right, striving to make a living selling the best possible cars we can get. From the past few week of looking at cars 75% of what I have seen has been other countries unwanted crap.

Sorry to sound all Winston and a tad extremist but I wish cars were still "expensive" It would stop people from replacing them like tampons and inject some money back into out auto industry (what left bar retailers) it would maybe teach people to look after what they have a bit better and make them remember driving a car is a luxury not a given.

The amount of wrecks is quite alarming also, there are so many sh*t boxes piling up as its often cheaper to buy another crapanese import than it is to fix the crapanese import you already have.

There are simply more cars then there are people they are everywhere.

[Avenged.SSE 0]

Im sorry Brian but yea right, striving to make a living selling the best possible cars we can get. From the past few week of looking at cars 75% of what I have seen has been other countries unwanted crap.

Sorry to sound all Winston and a tad extremist but I wish cars were still "expensive" It would stop people from replacing them like tampons and inject some money back into out auto industry (what left bar retailers) it would maybe teach people to look after what they have a bit better and make them remember driving a car is a luxury not a given.

The amount of wrecks is quite alarming also, there are so many sh*t boxes piling up as its often cheaper to buy another crapanese import than it is to fix the crapanese import you already have.

There are simply more cars then there are people they are everywhere.

And no more gangsta $3k BMWs!!

[318Touring 40]

I've been a lot of seeing leggy, really 'tatty', BMWs in TM now. There is a '96 528 which looks like a recent import with 220,000kms on it, missing a 'few' things etc. etc. for $3k.

Are people actually importing these kind of things to the country? What kind of person would buy something like that? Presumably you'll have to spend another few $ to fix (all) the problems and most of all maintain it? Or will it end up being 'slammed' with a big pipe at the back?

[greenday-rulz21 6]

Are people actually importing these kind of things to the country? What kind of person would buy something like that? Presumably you'll have to spend another few $ to fix (all) the problems and most of all maintain it? Or will it end up being 'slammed' with a big pipe at the back?

Yep, thats probably going to be its fate. Thats probably even who they're aiming these cheap bimmers at.

[Avenged.SSE 0]

Yep, thats probably going to be its fate. Thats probably even who they're aiming these cheap bimmers at.

and the worst part of it all is..... It will be cosmetically very similar to my car :'( especially if whoever buys it decides to go for some cheap angel eye lights on ebay!

[briancol 3]

All of you here that are complaining about imports,................................ diddums!

You should be thankful for them, because if it weren't for Japanese imports, most of you would be riding bicycles because you wouldn't be able to afford a Beemer let alone a reasonable late model cars.

[Cale 36]

I don't have a problem with import for the reasons Brian has pointed out,

what I have is a problem with s**t imports like that of what 318Touring has pointed out.

[Apex 693]

All of you here that are complaining about imports,................................ diddums!

You should be thankful for them, because if it weren't for Japanese imports, most of you would be riding bicycles because you wouldn't be able to afford a Beemer let alone a reasonable late model cars.

BMW’s would cost more but a lot of us would still have them, Japanese imports aren’t responsible for Kiwi’s being able to afford a car, they are responsible for enabling kiwi’s to drive premium car regardless of whether or not they can afford to maintain it or what condition it is in. They have enabled people to pretend they have money and are up the class chain where in reality they are driving a piece of unwanted rubbish from a "wealthier" country. Imports are driving people away from purchasing new cars and putting a lot of people of certain brands as they know how quick they will depreciate in our market due to Imports.

Spend a week in Australia and you’ll notice a better quality fleet of cars as they don’t have imports like we do, you’ll see younger people are driving newer reliable cars like Corolla’s and Lancers.

In Ausi is that BMW’s aren’t regarded as the piece of crap unreliable pretentious cars they are here.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Apex

[briancol 3]

Are people actually importing these kind of things to the country? What kind of person would buy something like that? Presumably you'll have to spend another few $ to fix (all) the problems and most of all maintain it? Or will it end up being 'slammed' with a big pipe at the back?

What's wrong with being 'slammed' with a big pipe at the back? How do you think they make compacts?

[martyyn 2]

Spend a week in Australia and you’ll notice a better quality fleet of cars as they don’t have imports like we do, you’ll see younger people are driving newer reliable cars like Corolla’s and Lancers.

Its the same in the UK and over most of Western Europe. The car fleet is far far newer and there are very few Jap imports there.

BUT the reason the fleets are newer is that car prices are so much cheaper in comparision to NZ. Imagine buying a new M5 for around NZD80k for example. Or a 12 month old Peugeot 406sri for NZD10k

Put things into some perspective doesnt it?

I personally think the imports have been great. For too long people have been allowed to drive absolutely shocking cars but they had little choice. The cost of new cars was just too high.

I cant argue that there have been some terrible imports, but the only way to renew the NZ fleet is to make cars cheaper so people can buy newer models and you arent going to get cheaper cars in NZ if you restrict imports.

[Apex 693]

They stopped making the 406 more than three years ago so that would be impressive. Their cars aren’t a lot cheaper than ours and they pay a hell of a lot in Tax, petrol and insurance so it actually works out more expensive to own a car there. But I won’t com pare the UK as it’s a completely different environment.

Look at Australians fleet and that is how ours would look without imports, last time I was there the car was newer and in much better condition, im not sure if this is due to stick rules or better maintenance. Down town Auckland looks like Japan 10 years ago.

[martyyn 2]

They stopped making the 406 more than three years ago so that would be impressive.

I paid GBP8k for a 12 month old 406 close to 10 years ago now. The time is not the issue, the price of the car in comparison to my salary in the UK and NZ remains valid though.

I sold the car 5 years later for GBP2k......peanuts (less than a months wages). It was still in superb condition, full service history with all the stamps etc. When we got here a month later an equiavlent model (they didnt do the sri over here) with similar milage was NZD24k !!!!

Hell my 740 was valued at NZD45k when I got it insured here and I paid GBP7k for it (two months wages) and I dont earn NZD22k a month now I can tell you !

Their cars aren’t a lot cheaper than ours and they pay a hell of a lot in Tax, petrol and insurance so it actually works out more expensive to own a car there.

Im sorry mate but thats rubbish. Please dont tell me your making the comparison using the exchange rate. Compare salaries for the same job and then come back to me.

But I won’t compare the UK as it’s a completely different environment.

And Australia isnt?

Cars in NZ were horrifically expensive prior to Jap imports flooding the market. No-one is denying there has been some crap imported but you also cant deny that car prices have tumbled making newer, more reliable cars available to more people. Surely thats a good thing.

You mention Auckland looking like Japan ten years ago.....well what did Auckland look like ten years ago? A damn site worse than it does now I bet.

[Apex 693]

1999? Um the same, only the Japanese imports were 10 years older. Cars were in line with Australia as far as know, im only 27 so maybe im to young to remember.

[R90S 2]

We have owned (and still own) a mix of Jap imports and NZ new cars. I had an utter, utter horror of a Mercedes Vito van imported from Singapore which caused me to go prematurely grey, but that's another story for another time....

My lament is the fact that the import industry destroyed our local vehicle assembly industry, along with all the supporting businesses which helped keep the industry supplied with tyres, windscreens, alloy wheels, upholstery and wiring looms. We were MAKING stuff, not BUYING stuff. The assembly industry helped our balance of payments because we even exported some new cars (such as Triumphs and Jaguars to Oz) but more importantly we kept a whole lot of people gainfully and meaningfully employed. Some might say that locally assembled cars were inferior to overseas assembled cars, but the fact is that plants like Toyota in Thames, Honda in Nelson and the Ford alloy wheel plant in Sth Auckland were up-to-the-minute and regularly won international quality awards.

One of the promises the government of the day promised was that new fully built up cars would be cheaper by $3000 - $4000. This never happened.

Yeah, used imports have brought the prices of used cars down, but the flip side is that those same used cars are no longer viable to repair when moderately accident-damaged or suffer mechanical damage. We have an eight year old Subaru 3 litre wagon that popped it's head gaskets recently when the radiator sprung a minor (yet unrepairable) leak. The job would have cost $5000 for a garage at typical commercial chargeout rates to sort, and even throwing a used replacement engine at it would have ended up close to the same figure. We had to seriously weigh our options about whether to repair or to sell the car for parts. A mate turned up this morning in a bomb he bought yesterday from a car auction: a very tidy NZ new '97 Nissan Maxima V6 for $1100 for goodness sake...

We've become a nation reliant on imports and sending our hard-earned money overseas, and have turned our backs on creating or maintaining skills and employment for our people.

My $0.02c

[jjs 64]

One of the promises the government of the day promised was that new fully built up cars would be cheaper by $3000 - $4000. This never happened.

RUBBISH!!!

Lets look at an example... comparing prices with 15 years ago to today.

In 1993, a new E36 325i SE Sedan (top of the line 3-Series sedan) cost $99,990 plus on road costs and extras

The consumer price index in 1993 was 748.63, the CPI in 2008 is 1077.10. If you extrapolate those figures, you get a 2008 value of $144,000!

In 2008, a new E90 325i SE is $90,000, a 330i M-Sport $107,500 and a 335i M-Sport $116,500. Also remember that cars are much, much highed spec'd now.

$100k in 1998 = $129k today

$100k in 2003 = $118k today

Also worth thinking about... a 1988 BMW 750IL at $230,000 new is just under $400,000 in todays money!

However if you look at car prices relative to house prices, the cost in real time adjusted terms is much much bigger.

Believe me, cars are MUCH CHEAPER thanks to the removal of tariffs.

[1rotty 40]

I agree with Brians & Penrys comments 100%.

Imports are a reality & have been for how long-15yrs? or more.

You regret the loss of the local car industry-it was crap & so were the cars!

Remember when Aust assembled was a big deal(if you're old enough).

They were crap too compared comparatively to what is available now thanks to imports.

Get over it.

[Apex 693]

I paid GBP8k for a 12 month old 406 close to 10 years ago now. The time is not the issue, the price of the car in comparison to my salary in the UK and NZ remains valid though.

I sold the car 5 years later for GBP2k......peanuts (less than a months wages). It was still in superb condition, full service history with all the stamps etc. When we got here a month later an equiavlent model (they didnt do the sri over here) with similar milage was NZD24k !!!!

Hell my 740 was valued at NZD45k when I got it insured here and I paid GBP7k for it (two months wages) and I dont earn NZD22k a month now I can tell you !

Im sorry mate but thats rubbish. Please dont tell me your making the comparison using the exchange rate. Compare salaries for the same job and then come back to me.

And Australia isnt?

Cars in NZ were horrifically expensive prior to Jap imports flooding the market. No-one is denying there has been some crap imported but you also cant deny that car prices have tumbled making newer, more reliable cars available to more people. Surely thats a good thing.

You mention Auckland looking like Japan ten years ago.....well what did Auckland look like ten years ago? A damn site worse than it does now I bet.

Maybe you got a deal, the price does not work out a hell of a lot different and in some cases cars are cheaper here.

I will agree to disagree with you on this buddy, I have a lot of family in Europe and every time they come over for a Holiday they are in disbelief as to how cheap and easy it is to be a motorist in NZ, it really is a luxury in Europe. They are amazed that we have 5 cars in our household whereas they have 1.

I agree with Brians & Penrys comments 100%.

Imports are a reality & have been for how long-15yrs? or more.

You regret the loss of the local car industry-it was crap & so were the cars!

Remember when Aust assembled was a big deal(if you're old enough).

They were crap too compared comparatively to what is available now thanks to imports.

Get over it.

Thanks Rotty.

I grew up with NZ assembled Toyota’s that were reliable and cheap, I still own a NZ assembled Toyota’s and it will outlive me! I guess I just like to remember the days when NZ had a car industry, I fell very proud driving my Corolla, much prouder than I would driving a cheap skate pretentious import “luxury†refuge vehicle.

[R90S 2]

RUBBISH!!!

Lets look at an example... comparing prices with 15 years ago to today.

In 1993, a new E36 325i SE Sedan (top of the line 3-Series sedan) cost $99,990 plus on road costs and extras

The consumer price index in 1993 was 748.63, the CPI in 2008 is 1077.10. If you extrapolate those figures, you get a 2008 value of $144,000!

In 2008, a new E90 325i SE is $90,000, a 330i M-Sport $107,500 and a 335i M-Sport $116,500. Also remember that cars are much, much highed spec'd now.

$100k in 1998 = $129k today

$100k in 2003 = $118k today

Also worth thinking about... a 1988 BMW 750IL at $230,000 new is just under $400,000 in todays money!

However if you look at car prices relative to house prices, the cost in real time adjusted terms is much much bigger.

Believe me, cars are MUCH CHEAPER thanks to the removal of tariffs.

With all due respect, your argument is based on faulty logic, and is completely irrelevant. Comparing new car prices to house prices is as relevant as comparing them to the price of fish. The only true comparison is the number of weeks required to purchase a direct equivalent car based on the average income of the day. And while relatively speaking cars are more affordable, that's only one side of the equation. The social and financial cost of supporting thousands of NZ'ers who were made redundant when assembly in NZ stopped was huge. And our balance of payments hasn't exactly improved either. Incidently, this isn't ancient news - the last local assembler only closed the doors 10 years ago.

BMW have never assembled cars in NZ, so that's not part of the point i was making either.

Neither was I comparing 1990 prices with 2008 prices, I was comparing 1990 prices of NZ assembled cars pre tarrif removal with post 1990 imported new cars after tarrif removal. The country was assured at the time that imported new cars would be cheaper than their locally assembled equivalents by $3000-$4000. It never happened.

The open access to used imports have completely destroyed the residual values of all vehicles. And the removal of tarrifs has led to the withdrawal of investment in NZ by global companies who collectively employed many thousands of NZ'ers. In automotive terms we have adopted a "disposable" attitude to cars, and lost the incentive to value them.

Remember: short term goals corrupt long term goals. The Government's goal of the late 1980's was to improve the average age of the NZ car fleet. It has gotten older.....

[briancol 3]

"Thanks Rotty.

I grew up with NZ assembled Toyota’s that were reliable and cheap, I still own a NZ assembled Toyota’s and it will outlive me! I guess I just like to remember the days when NZ had a car industry, I fell very proud driving my Corolla, much prouder than I would driving a cheap skate pretentious import “luxury†refuge vehicle."

The only car industry NZ ever had was purely an assembly industry, we did not manufacture cars in NZ.

Edited November 12, 2008 by briancol

[Apex 693]

Yes, kit sets. Toyota, Nissan and Ford did have NZ specific cars though and a lot of the Textiles and paints as well as other things were made locally. Im no economist but im guessing lots of Jobs were lost.

[jjs 64]

With all due respect, your argument is based on faulty logic, and is completely irrelevant. Comparing new car prices to house prices is as relevant as comparing them to the price of fish. The only true comparison is the number of weeks required to purchase a direct equivalent car based on the average income of the day. And while relatively speaking cars are more affordable, that's only one side of the equation. The social and financial cost of supporting thousands of NZ'ers who were made redundant when assembly in NZ stopped was huge. And our balance of payments hasn't exactly improved either. Incidently, this isn't ancient news - the last local assembler only closed the doors 10 years ago.

I am sorry, your argument makes no sense. Cars are the same price now (or very close to) what they were ten and 15 years ago. I doubt a job that pays $100k now would have paid $100k in 1998, or 1993. Hell, the minimum wage was only $7 in 1998, isn't it now some ridiculous figure like $13?

Compare it houses, jobs or the price of the average basket of consumer goods (as I highlighted in a previous post with CPI data) or whatever you like. As for your fish analogy, I am sure a fillet of tarakihi costs a lot more now than what it did in 1998!!! The reality is cars HAVE got cheaper in real terms.

Im no economist but im guessing lots of Jobs were lost.

I won't claim to be an economist, but have studied it at a post graduate level. Anyone stupid enough to think there should be a car industry in NZ needs to go back to school and take year nine economics. As for the garbage about "the social cost", you might as well pay someone to go and dig random holes on the side of road. Having industry like this in NZ was the sort of thinking Muldoon had with his "think big" project, which was a dismal failure.

[R90S 2]

I am sorry, your argument makes no sense. Cars are the same price now (or very close to) what they were ten and 15 years ago. I doubt a job that pays $100k now would have paid $100k in 1998, or 1993. Hell, the minimum wage was only $7 in 1998, isn't it now some ridiculous figure like $13?

Compare it houses, jobs or the price of the average basket of consumer goods (as I highlighted in a previous post with CPI data) or whatever you like. As for your fish analogy, I am sure a fillet of tarakihi costs a lot more now than what it did in 1998!!! The reality is cars HAVE got cheaper in real terms.

I won't claim to be an economist, but have studied it at a post graduate level. Anyone stupid enough to think there should be a car industry in NZ needs to go back to school and take year nine economics. As for the garbage about "the social cost", you might as well pay someone to go and dig random holes on the side of road. Having industry like this in NZ was the sort of thinking Muldoon had with his "think big" project, which was a dismal failure.

Wow. You have a truly dizzying debating style. Evidently I'm stupid as far as you're concerned because I hold a differing opinion. I really appreciate your deep insight. Thanks for your scintillating enlightenment of what for you is obviously a very simple issue......

If you review my post above, you won't find any personality attack, or derrogatory remarks, so why do you resort to them? Generally, the more obnoxious a post, the more insecure or obnoxious the poster is. I hope that isn't the reason for your approach.......and incidently, if cars are so cheap now, why is the average age of the NZ fleet getting older, not younger? Why are we not all driving new cars? How have relying on second hand imports helped our economy? As a post grad, I'm sure you can enlighten a stupid poster....

Look forward to your response.

[Apex 693]

I won't claim to be an economist, but have studied it at a post graduate level. Anyone stupid enough to think there should be a car industry in NZ needs to go back to school and take year nine economics. As for the garbage about "the social cost", you might as well pay someone to go and dig random holes on the side of road. Having industry like this in NZ was the sort of thinking Muldoon had with his "think big" project, which was a dismal failure.

Mate, I didn’t make year nine, hence my spelling and grammar and vague grasp on the economy. Im not arguing, im giving my somewhat bias ignorant opinion on the mater.

I understand that there was no point financially producing cars in NZ, I just miss them is all, and Im a big fan of Kiwi made coming from a manufacturing family and still manufacturing up to 20% of what I sell. I don’t like the thought of kiwi’s buying what I see as used consumer goods from other wealthier country’s helping them stay rich for the sake of having a few more bells and whistles in the Skyline.

Imagine (if you can) paying 120k for a E46 then being offered 15k for it as a trade in a few years later, where if there were no imports it would still be worth 30k like it would in Australia. Sure imports have brought prices down but at the expense of the people with money, the new car buyers that are putting the most back into the economy.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Apex

[kingkarl 136]

My lament is the fact that the import industry destroyed our local vehicle assembly industry, along with all the supporting businesses which helped keep the industry supplied with tyres, windscreens, alloy wheels, upholstery and wiring looms. We were MAKING stuff, not BUYING stuff. The assembly industry helped our balance of payments because we even exported some new cars (such as Triumphs and Jaguars to Oz) but more importantly we kept a whole lot of people gainfully and meaningfully employed. Some might say that locally assembled cars were inferior to overseas assembled cars, but the fact is that plants like Toyota in Thames, Honda in Nelson and the Ford alloy wheel plant in Sth Auckland were up-to-the-minute and regularly won international quality awards.

We've become a nation reliant on imports and sending our hard-earned money overseas, and have turned our backs on creating or maintaining skills and employment for our people.

My $0.02c

Here's how i see it, feel free to correct me.

I think your only looking at the short term effects of the closure of NZ's car assembly industry. First off, Toyota and Honda are not and were not NZ owned companies. So every dollar of profit they made in our country, headed straight off overseas (wrecking our balance on income, which is the sole reason we have a huge current account deficit).

Sure, there were a lot of jobs being created, which was great, but the reality was that NZ had a comparative Disadvantage in Car manufacturing. It was in our best long term interests to close the car industry. Sure, there was a LOT of short term pain for those affected by job losses, but in time, they got new jobs in industries where WE DID HAVE a comparative advantage (such as dairying and forestry). Also, the best part about re allocating jobs into other sectors, was that people were working for NZ owned firms like fonterra. The profits from these firms stayed in our country and were reinvested to benefit us all.

[R90S 2]

Here's how i see it, feel free to correct me.

I think your only looking at the short term effects of the closure of NZ's car assembly industry. First off, Toyota and Honda are not and were not NZ owned companies. So every dollar of profit they made in our country, headed straight off overseas (wrecking our balance on income, which is the sole reason we have a huge current account deficit).

Sure, there were a lot of jobs being created, which was great, but the reality was that NZ had a comparative Disadvantage in Car manufacturing. It was in our best long term interests to close the car industry. Sure, there was a LOT of short term pain for those affected by job losses, but in time, they got new jobs in industries where WE DID HAVE a comparative advantage (such as dairying and forestry). Also, the best part about re allocating jobs into other sectors, was that people were working for NZ owned firms like fonterra. The profits from these firms stayed in our country and were reinvested to benefit us all.

I find this intriguing. Perhaps I've missed something, but aren't we still buying those same new cars off the same manufacturers, except they are now coming into the country completely built up? Those big bad overseas companies are probably making more profit assembling overseas and our balance of payments worse as a result...

Unless I've completely lost the plot, it was the government of the day's decision to remove tarrifs protecting local industry that removed the incentives for local assembly, not because it it had become commercially unprofitable. I could understand this argument holding water if we had stopped buying new cars when local assembly ceased, but I'm fairly sure that new cars are still available.....