Quality sounds

[advantex 0]

Looking for advice to see what I can budget for/ grab bargin on if I can find it at good price...

E34 535i. Looking for CD & Flash stick (or CF card) player that for vehicle. Bluetooth capable would be handy. Must be able to play .WAV files (I don't do MP3's - ever) from removable electronic media. Speaker replacement (can re-cable as necessary) but would prefer UK (i.e. Bowers&Wilkins, KEF etc) quality.

I know about sounds, my home system many more times price of my car, thus the push for quality, not quantity.

Any suggestions? Anyone 'totally moved' by their own system? Any reccomendations of where to start looking or who (company/ franchise) to talk to?

David

Edited June 29, 2008 by advantex

[rogan 7]

but would prefer UK (i.e. Bowers&Wilkins, KEF etc) quality.

Forget UK, most of the best stuff is made in Korea!! The only decent car audio Britsh company is Genesis but they're not over here and you'd have to import from the UK.

In RHD, BM's are a bitch for front stage. The e34 has a bigger kick than most and you can get a 9" midbass in there

Even so, they're not really big enough to angle midrange and tweeters so you're left with door/dash/A-pillar installing there. Only other option is horns. I use Image Dynamics CD2 pro horns in my e39 and having come from Focal Utopia components previously the CD2 are damn good. But at $1800 for a pair they ain't cheap. One of the easiest tweeter installs as well and gets round the path length problems with dash/a-pillar installs.

Depending on budget, another option would be Brax Matrix, regarded as the second best components available. There was a pair for sale in Hamilton, not sure if they're sold or not. They're regarded as second to the Rainbow Platinums which retail somewhere round $22K for the pair. I think John was looking for $1500 for the Brax 2nd hand but they're in immaculate condition.

Not for a few things that differ between home and car. Don't buy expensive speaker wire or expensive RCA. Complete and utter waste of time and money.

If you're an audiophile, then doing your car system properly is gonna cost big dollars and it won't really compare against a home system of similar cost. You can get much better results at home for far less dollars. Before you get into this, have you thought about just having an averagely decent car system and instead indulge your ears at home. Disposable cash would determine this.

For a headunit, have a look at the top of the Pioneer and Alpine ranges. Not sure which headunits will do BT and CF. Alpine have an add on Bluetooth module 300BT. I've been looking at it myself but from overseas reading it appears they don't work that well. Pionner seem to have better BT stuff.

I suppose the big question is what's your budget for audio.

[advantex 0]

Thanks for that Rogan,

having read what you wrote I realise I was not overly clear in my original post. I think you have put me on the right track. By quality I sort of meant that I did not want a piece of shite, something upper market, functional, good sound quality. Not necessarily expensive.

You are right also in that the best sounds will always be at home. Having read much since I made the first post I realise that playing .wav files from a removable USB device is probably not going to be an option. There are international treaties and copyright laws involved in this. I can handle MP3-Pro which is a bit better than MP3. Now that I know much more about the problems with audio dynamics of a car interior, I suspect that MP3 is about the best you could expect anyway.

Having looked at a lot of units on the web I feel I should go for a very good "basic" system by working on existing speaker placement but changing the components to get a good sound. I don't need CD stacker (hence the USB flash option), Bluetooth is not needed immediately and I can always change the head unit later on.

Would ask you/ others to suggest the proportions I should spend the money on given the above clarification. I have a pair of B&W WM4 speakers which I could use as rear speakers and modify the rear shelf (recessing them into boot space on a slight tilt). These have a fantastic sound and if I used them I will not need a sub I assure you – they are very powerful. This would solve the rears and would then just need to work on fronts.

Put the budget at around $2000. I have looked at JVC’s, Alpines & Pioneers. All have nice features, some have features I don’t believe I would ever use. I need a compromise – quality + USB? It is not the sort of thing you can “take on approval to try†so I rely on advice here.

David

[drifty325i 0]

Mate my company (Monaco corp) is the official Pioneer distributor for NZ. Not parallel imported crap just the official fully licenced stuff direct from Pioneer. Im a terriory manager for them so i sell this stuff to Harvey Normans/ Retravisions/ Repcos etc everyday

Ive had a wee look at your requirements and I've come up with a system that will be ideal for you in my opinion.

1x DEHP800BT

http://www.pioneernz.co.nz/default.asp?Obj...kCode=DEHP800BT

2 sets TSA1702C

http://www.pioneernz.co.nz/default.asp?Obj...ckCode=TSA1702C

You could run a decent Amp to them for better quality

1x GM6300F

http://www.pioneernz.co.nz/default.asp?Obj...ockCode=GM6300F

This does sound awesome trust me on that , its all dam good gear

In a package you could get the lot for alot cheaper than the RRP

cheers

Riley

[Five Star 0]

Was that a $2000 budget for just the HU or entire setup?

Will you do the install yourself, or get it installed?

An easy way to tell if an installer knows what they're talking about is if they offer sound deadening (dynamat extreme!). If they offer a capacitor, run.

The 9887 sounds like the way to go SQwise from what everyones saying, unless you're going to get into serious money.

I can draw up a suggested price to spend on each component of the system for a self installed system or a professionally installed system, with recommened HU's/speakers etc to listen to so you can decide what sounds best to you(not this board or the installer ). Just need to know if you can do the install or not!

[advantex 0]

Thanks Riley: these look ok. Well worth considering

Thanks FiveStar: Yes, I will do the install myself. Read following post. $2000 budget around end September is for head/ amp unit(s).

see next post....

[advantex 0]

Some more background - I bought a stereo which I love to bits but moved house some 5 years ago and went from big old country house (multi-room/ outdoor environment) to smaller "town-house" style (one room). Have 4 speakers that have no place to locate - in other words, because of house layout, they are basically redundant.

At the end of the day, an amp and/ or head unit either does or does not provide true fidelity. It can change the characteristics (ie car environment mapping) by standard tone control/ graphic equaliser system or other ‘clever’ means. But assuming true fidelity is retained, the source is the primary issue. Nothing can be 'better' than the original (fidelity wise) hence the preference of .wav or even MP3pro over MP3. On my home system, there is a significant difference between .wav and .MP3 – very clearly distinguishable.

Second come speakers because that is what colourises or reproduces the sound from a fidelity system. The amp, if your fidelity is correct, will reproduce the source exactly (perhaps characterised but still in tact) and the speakers are what you finally hear. That is all you will ever hear unless you drive with headphones on! If they are not good, nothing prior to this component ever reach your ears “good†either.

My thinking is that because I already have the B&W's, I should like to try these first and if this fails, will bite the bullet and buy accordingly later on. I have no problem with experimentation either, after all, I can always put the B&W’s back together again. I suspect this has never been done before so I would quite like to try it anyway.

I will make a new rear shelf and insert the WM4’s into this for the rears. I will disassemble the redundant B&W speakers and use the Kevlar 6†units for the lower fronts and the tweeters in the upper dash complete with the supplied crossover.

These speakers are 100w RMS at 6 Ohm nominal so need now to select appropriate head and amp to do this job with USB as required. So, if this all turns to custard, I will have to buy speakers matching the head/ amp – but if it doesn’t, it may be a system worth listening to – albeit an expensive and strange way of going about it.

I apologise to any dealers out there, but Asian speakers just ‘do not sound the same’ as top range UK or ever German/ US speakers. How a speaker system colours the sound is the dictating factor as to how long you can comfortably listen to the sound coming out of it without getting annoyed.

It’s not about “what you listen toâ€, it’s not “how loud it is†- it’s how comfortable the listening is at any volume over a short or long period of time. It’s not eye candy, its ear candy.

David

[advantex 0]

I will be in Tauranga 12~15th if there are any places I should go visit for a listen.

[briancol 3]

Would something like this do?

[540i TOURING 0]

Rainbow or DLS for Speakers and Amps., you will be happy.

[Five Star 0]

So you've already got speakers you want to use.. they aren't home speakers are they?? Worth seeing how they sound in a car, but don't hold your breath. 2k for HU + amps? Do you already have a sub, or do you even want one?

If you've already got the speakers you want to use then the money priority is your source unit and sub. Then amps.

I'm still a bit confused as to your setup..

If you're set on using .wav (I'd never use mp3's.. I use my ipod with lossless recordings) then that will limit your choice of HU. A lot. Also to discount any of the car audio made in asia, especially on your budget, is a big mistake. A lot of very good gear comes out of asia and most of the products you'll be looking at on your budget will come from asia.

Have you thought about having a hard drive store all your music in the car? .wav's are big.

I can't think of any HU that uses .wav's off the top of my head. I'll have to have a look around.

Only recommendations I can offer with the info I've got are..

Get a 4 channel amp, run the fronts active or semi-active. Run the rears off the HU. I like the new rockford/alpine/jaycar range due to size, give them a listen. A lot of brands are all made in the same factory, don't be fooled by brandnames..

Look into how much boot space you've got for a sub and let us know/look around for a sub that fits that and your sound expectations.

Look at sound deadening. Dynamat extreme is the way to go.

Oh, and I don't know about rainbow amps on his budget. But rainbow speakers are well worth a look

[advantex 0]

I will go listen to some units at Eastland Hi-Fi here in Gisborne, and go listen to some others in Tauranga next week. I am pretty sure I know what I am looking for now thanks to you guys for all the advice. Hard drive is great idea - ideal in fact.

Please don't under estimate the speakers I have chosen to use, they are by no means just 'good' speakers, they are right up there with the worlds very best – and yes, they will perform well ‘outside their designed box’ – I checked that bit out first by email, they just loose a bit of very low bass response. Like I said, I have them so I might as well try them. Thus I might need a sub yet but will initially try without - see what it sounds like.

I am happy with Asian brand head and amp – these do appear to be the best choices. Aside the specs, the features and ease of use (while driving) will be major factors in my choice. Your comments and links are appreciated.

This is not budgeted until end August, so got a bit of time yet to look around and plenty of time for others to put their bit in if they wish.

[advantex 0]

Would something like this do?

Brilliant! Figure the big horns could sit under dash at foot level. End would poke through the grill though, so figured might need pointy bra in grill so looks like Madonnas tits at front view. LOL

E34 Maddonna! Good one dude (nice system though! - have seen this before).

er...um nice sound, nice price, not nice to look at

Edited July 7, 2008 by advantex

[rogan 7]

I apologise to any dealers out there, but Asian speakers just ‘do not sound the same’ as top range UK or ever German/ US speakers.

And you wonder where the component suppliers /build houses for these UK, German and US speaker manufacturers are?? Hint - Korea. Not China, their QC isn't good enough, but Korea is one of the dominant audio companies.

Pioneer head units are pretty good. The best deal recently was on the P80rs. Apparently there was a stuff up by Aussie and NZ got shipped the P80RSII which is slightly different from the P80rs. For some bizarre reason, Monaco dumped the P80rsII stock on the market at half the retail price of the original P80rs. Result is that it knocked out the 2nd hand value of the P80rs.

Not sure about usb compatability through the pbus system, but the P80 has front/rear/sub pre out (can be changed to low/mid/high for 3 way use), time alignment and independant 16 band eq.

Their ipod control isn't the best but otherwise they're right up there with the Alpine stuff and as mentioned earlier their BT is better.

Don't touch Pioneer speakers (except maybe PRS) with a 4000ft barge pole. There's a hell of alot better out there for the same coin.

DLS / Rainbow speakers are well worth looking into if you home theatre speakers don't work out. Out thing to note is that hone speakers have generally much smaller tolerances than car speakers. Home speakers aren't built to handle the vibration of cars and hence the different construction. As you're probably well aware, you speakers are only as good as the enclosure you're putting them in.

Amps, I guess your limiting factor is class A/B. You won't find many class A amps and most are actually a class A/B with bias. There's alot of class D around which you won't want.

[advantex 0]

thanks Rogan.

B&W are only manufactured in UK - as are most top 10 speaker manufacturers only manufactured in country of origin (this may have changed since I last looked, but if so would be like BMW and assembled off-shore under very stringent QA)

DLS/Rainbow is interesting from what I have managed to read. I will definitely be checking out their products.

Pioneer speakers: agree, that is what I have now and (with no disrespect to the product in general) - these particular ones sound like shite.

Class A or type current dumping amps would be very rare - Quad were the only company I am aware of that succeeded in producing a decent amp using this (the best) technology. It is incredibly inefficient (for a vehicle). AB class would be 99.9%. of all amps. Quasi complementary circuitry found its niche in compromise between quality and consumption. Microprocessor controlled hi-speed A/D converters bridged that gap even further making digital as good (apparently) as analogue - some may disagree. Class D – never heard of it.

The B&W speakers being considered are made from Kevlar – can’t get much stronger or resilient or vibration proof or waterproof or dust proof than that unless I am well behind the times.

Don’t get me wrong here, and I am not trying to be coy, but I have had 30 years in electronics/ electrical and computer design and manufacture. I don’t (can’t nor want to) know everything but willing to learn. I do know my fundamental basics – and “car stereo†not electronics or stereo in general is where I am lacking in product knowledge – thus I turn to my peers.

All comments are welcome and helpful. Please don’t let this clarification of what I do for al living put you off. Only a fool ‘refuses to listen’ to others and I am no fool. In the area of car audio I profess to have no skill, but in general I know what I am doing.

[curryinahurry 39]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the latest B&Ws speakers are now made in China. (The 683 series I'm refering to).

thanks Rogan.

B&W are only manufactured in UK - as are most top 10 speaker manufacturers only manufactured in country of origin (this may have changed since I last looked, but if so would be like BMW and assembled off-shore under very stringent QA)

DLS/Rainbow is interesting from what I have managed to read. I will definitely be checking out their products.

Pioneer speakers: agree, that is what I have now and (with no disrespect to the product in general) - these particular ones sound like shite.

Class A or type current dumping amps would be very rare - Quad were the only company I am aware of that succeeded in producing a decent amp using this (the best) technology. It is incredibly inefficient (for a vehicle). AB class would be 99.9%. of all amps. Quasi complementary circuitry found its niche in compromise between quality and consumption. Microprocessor controlled hi-speed A/D converters bridged that gap even further making digital as good (apparently) as analogue - some may disagree. Class D – never heard of it.

The B&W speakers being considered are made from Kevlar – can’t get much stronger or resilient or vibration proof or waterproof or dust proof than that unless I am well behind the times.

Don’t get me wrong here, and I am not trying to be coy, but I have had 30 years in electronics/ electrical and computer design and manufacture. I don’t (can’t nor want to) know everything but willing to learn. I do know my fundamental basics – and “car stereo†not electronics or stereo in general is where I am lacking in product knowledge – thus I turn to my peers.

All comments are welcome and helpful. Please don’t let this clarification of what I do for al living put you off. Only a fool ‘refuses to listen’ to others and I am no fool. In the area of car audio I profess to have no skill, but in general I know what I am doing.

[rogan 7]

There's been a few forays into Class A amps in car audio. Some like the Alpine 3558 were class A for the first 5w then changed over to A/B. Tru Tech had class A in their copper range and HSS and Milbert are class A in their tube amps. With high price, high current draw and high heat output they don't mate well into the car environment.

Class D is extremely common in car amps. There's a reduction in damping factor and a few other sq'y area but the trade off is higher power output per ampere, smaller footprint and less heat output.

Just to add confusion there's a few Class G and Class T starting to appear. Stick to A/B and you'll be right.

It's definitely worth a crack putting the B&W speakefrs in. A friend has the 800D and they're absolutely glorious. Have a nosey here for a guy who used B&W Nautilus speakers: http://www.milbert.com/autos/earl

Edited July 7, 2008 by rogan

[advantex 0]

There's been a few forays into Class A amps in car audio. Some like the Alpine 3558 were class A for the first 5w then changed over to A/B. Tru Tech had class A in their copper range and HSS and Milbert are class A in their tube amps. With high price, high current draw and high heat output they don't mate well into the car environment.

Class D is extremely common in car amps. There's a reduction in damping factor and a few other sq'y area but the trade off is higher power output per ampere, smaller footprint and less heat output.

Just to add confusion there's a few Class G and Class T starting to appear. Stick to A/B and you'll be right.

It's definitely worth a crack putting the B&W speakefrs in. A friend has the 800D and they're absolutely glorious. Have a nosey here for a guy who used B&W Nautilus speakers: http://www.milbert.com/autos/earl

Wow - that is a lot of hours and a lot of dollars and a truly impressive amount of effort to win the awards. I think I may spend more than budget on head and/ or amps. Read about the 'fine tuning' of the resulting system on this and other sites and went through the 'sticky' link in a lot more detail. When I am shopping, I will look at amps for the various zones and a method of tuning the sound distribution of these or some kind of central control/ tuning methods.

[rogan 7]

That's why you need to draw a line somewhere. You can start off with something like the Pioneer P80rs headunit and have sufficient eq, time alignment and a 3 way active crossover which will handle a well above average system. The next step up from that is really going to the headunit and processor combos which will give you 7 or 8 distinct preamp channels, multiple crossover slopes, phase control, 30 band eqs per channel etc etc. You're looking at 1500 2nd hand for a combo set up or about 3k brand new.

Realistically if you're an audiophile you're not going to get change from $7K when building a good system. If you've got that kind of disposable income then go for your life but otherwise it's probably best sticking to a good headunit like the P80 and getting a 4channel amp to either run front and rear passively or fronts actively, and then look at a mono amp for sub duty.

My advice is leave you factory rear speakers in there. Try your B&W speakers up front and if it all works to your liking then look at getting an amp for aub frequencies.

[rogan 7]

Meant to throw this link in - well worth a good read. Despite it actually being a product manual for a 3inch driver, it actually covers most of the main concepts of car audio http://www.hybrid-audio.com/downloads/Hybr...rs%20Manual.pdf

Hybrid Audio is very new on the scene but seems to be taking the industry by storm. The L series speakers have toppled DLS on the international competition scene and I've spoken to a few people who use then who reckon they're the best things since sliced bread. AFAIK there's no NZ distributor so you'd need to import from the States.

[Five Star 0]

I'd be looking at the alpine 9887 if you're in it for serious SQ and a decent price.

Pioneer speakers have some fans too.. I've heard good reports about some of their top end ones being run active. Like I said, it's how they sound to you. Search around and have a listen..

Oh, and you can build a very good sounding brand new system for far under 7k

Class D amps are becoming more common for front speakers (new alpines etc) but are not that common yet (price is still a big limiting factor). Don't bother with expensive amps, spend the money on other components first.

It sounds like the big factor you're missing out on is planning for a sub. And this is a BIG factor in car audio. Measure up the max size you're willing to allow for a sub and go from there.

Edit - Grammar!

Edited July 14, 2008 by Five Star

[advantex 0]

Well, so far it seems you can start to get something somewhat decent from $800 upward – listening/reading to all your advice and still looking. I got a few more places to visit yet. There are a lot of models available.

Kenwood coming back into the auto market again – they always used to have reasonable stuff in the past but times have changed – any comments?

In the weekend, I tore out the rear speakers. They were totally stuffed and probably why they sounded so crappy. I hooked up the WM4’ just sitting them on the rear head rests. What an incredible difference!

Sub might be an advantage, just not sure where to mount it. Any suggestions that don’t “disfigure†the interior?

[Five Star 0]

Kenwood? Probably not... maybe for an amp?

Yes you'll need a sub. Put it in the boot.. or search around for people with similar installs.

[boydusM325i 0]

Well, so far it seems you can start to get something somewhat decent from $800 upward – listening/reading to all your advice and still looking. I got a few more places to visit yet. There are a lot of models available.

Kenwood coming back into the auto market again – they always used to have reasonable stuff in the past but times have changed – any comments?

In the weekend, I tore out the rear speakers. They were totally stuffed and probably why they sounded so crappy. I hooked up the WM4’ just sitting them on the rear head rests. What an incredible difference!

Sub might be an advantage, just not sure where to mount it. Any suggestions that don’t “disfigure†the interior?

I see you are located in Gisborne yes? Well, I suggest you give Wiremu a call on 0800BIGNOISE and have a chat to him about your requirements. He is situated in Hastings, trust me, he knows what he's talking about and will give you good solid advice..

( I was National Sales Manager @ Fusion Electronics for 3 years..)

For more info:Website

Cheers

Boyd

[Neal 544]

Well, so far it seems you can start to get something somewhat decent from $800 upward – listening/reading to all your advice and still looking. I got a few more places to visit yet. There are a lot of models available.

Kenwood coming back into the auto market again – they always used to have reasonable stuff in the past but times have changed – any comments?

In the weekend, I tore out the rear speakers. They were totally stuffed and probably why they sounded so crappy. I hooked up the WM4’ just sitting them on the rear head rests. What an incredible difference!

Sub might be an advantage, just not sure where to mount it. Any suggestions that don’t “disfigure†the interior?

Just to had to the confusion I'd recommend using PhoniexGold amps and Boston Acoustics speakers combinations.

PhoniexGold are a USA brand of Amp that is near Audiophile class without the 3-4k budget and often the higher end amps come up on trademe for a third of retail. This brand of amp has been the basis of many top USA car stereo winning vehicles.

I have one of these amps from the 1990's which was produced for the 100 watt competition car stereo class.

With the engine off it's rated at 25 watts x 4 (12.5 volt rating). With the alternator running (13.8 volts) and 2ohm speakers it produces 75 watts rms x2 and 150 rms + for the bass channel. The power and control of this amp is fantastic

They've had a recent name change to Rodin. http://www.rodinaudio.com

Speaker wise the Boston Acoustics Pro Series are worth an audition. Boston Acoustics are a USA audiophile speaker company that also produce car stereo speakers. The Pro series speakers build quality is extremely high, have amazing power handling levels and have a handy 3 ohm loading which will take advantage of higher current amplifiers and make them produce more power than with a normal 4 ohm speaker. The crossovers have high end capacitors and these speakers produce a extremely good sound stage for a car speaker.

Depending on you music tastes you might get away with a sub , however , A 10 inch sub will allow you to hear the lower octaves that are normally lost to road noise or to smaller speaker rolloff. You could listen to some 12 inch subs, but unless you spend mega dollars you'll find the timing of the bass being slower. (eg B&W 800d verse B&W 801d) For you BMW a sub sitting in the boot firing through the rear arm rest is a good way to go. BMW have been considerate enough to allow for a ski port that goes through the arm rest. If your car does have this as standard if you take out the rear boot lining you'll notice that BMW have tac welded a panel behind the arm rest. This is easy to remove and can be put back in place when you wish to sell the car. I've mounted subs this way on a couple of BMW's I've owned.

Check out Mikes E30 sub install , In my view this is the best way to do bass in a bmw

http://www.bimmersport.co.nz/forums/index.php?showtopic=8920

The ski port panel that can be removed without causing warrant of fitness issues

http://www.bimmersport.co.nz/forums/index....ost&id=7432

Alternatively just use the "transfer function" that occurs with Bass in a car. Have a boxed sub in the boot and the bass will transfer through the metal of the car and into the cabin. You'll need a bit more power into the sub, but you'll still achieve a reasonable level of bass.

http://www.caraudiohelp.com/newsletter/cabin_gain.htm

Head unit wise , I’ve fallen behind , but I’d look for time alignment features , decent DAC’s , sub out / control. Some of the better sony head units have 24 bit burr brown Dac’s. The sony joystick remote that can be mount on the steering column is brilliant. All the functions of the unit can be control via this without having to take your eyes of the road and leaves you hand close to the steering wheel as well.