Quality sounds

[Five Star 0]

Bigger subs aren't slower. Just poor box design, if that.

And big noise is terrible. Hate to say it on here, but I've delt with them (so most likely the guy mentioned) a decent number of times and everytime I've been told something totally wrong. The decent car audio shop around the corner are sick of the **** they tell people and have to explain.

If you need a decent opinion to compare to what shops tell you post up your budget, car and current gear (and that you're looking for SQ ) here

[rogan 7]

If you need a decent opinion to compare to what shops tell you post up your budget, car and current gear (and that you're looking for SQ ) here

x2. really good forum that one, and sad to say but the Aussies beat us hands down in car audio knowledge.

IMHO the best way to do bass in a BMW is Infinite Baffle. Sealed facing through the ski hatch is simple and effective, but the design of the seat back and rear deck of BMers just cries out for IB. Advantages: plays lower, hits harder, weighs less (less enclosure), more available boot space.

Boston Acoustic were the top of the pile over here for a while. They went downhill but some of their recent stuff is getting back to where they were. I had a listen to some Boston Z6 splits paired with a G5 sub, running off my old headie and Boston amps. Maybe it was tuning but it didn't do it for me. But hey personal preference.

As 5 star pointed out, the size of a sub does not dictate it's ability to keep up with the music. I run a 15"and it would make some 10"s sound sloppy. Idid some testing of an IDmax10 vs and IDmax12 in my car (saloon with ski pass open) vs a friends car (stationwagon). The 10 sounded better in the stationwagon, and the 12 sounded better in the saloon. No idea why and there's probably no golden rule but it was an interesting little experiment.

[Neal 544]

x2. really good forum that one, and sad to say but the Aussies beat us hands down in car audio knowledge.

IMHO the best way to do bass in a BMW is Infinite Baffle. Sealed facing through the ski hatch is simple and effective, but the design of the seat back and rear deck of BMers just cries out for IB. Advantages: plays lower, hits harder, weighs less (less enclosure), more available boot space.

Boston Acoustic were the top of the pile over here for a while. They went downhill but some of their recent stuff is getting back to where they were. I had a listen to some Boston Z6 splits paired with a G5 sub, running off my old headie and Boston amps. Maybe it was tuning but it didn't do it for me. But hey personal preference.

As 5 star pointed out, the size of a sub does not dictate it's ability to keep up with the music. I run a 15"and it would make some 10"s sound sloppy. Idid some testing of an IDmax10 vs and IDmax12 in my car (saloon with ski pass open) vs a friends car (stationwagon). The 10 sounded better in the stationwagon, and the 12 sounded better in the saloon. No idea why and there's probably no golden rule but it was an interesting little experiment.

Without starting a religous war my comment on bass timing was based listening to a number of audiophile systems over the years, attending a number of SQ sound off's and also on back to back listening on B&W top line 800d & 801d .These retail in NZ for $40 k plus. 800's have dual 10's verse the 801's single 15 and had a top end amps and CD / Dac combo worth an additional $70k. The dual tens in my view where far more musical as did the person buying them. A couple of muso mates that play bass guitars prefer bass cabs running 4x10's rather than 12's or 15's. This is for the same reason.

At the end of the day it's what you like the sound of. Having run free air / IB / IB with passive radiator & isobaric enclosers I'd agree on the IB are best / easiest for sound quality. These days I just run a single 10inch IB with passive radiator which gives a very small box size. It's given the boot back and is a good tradeoff between size and sound quality.

[rogan 7]

Without starting a religous war my comment on bass timing was based listening to a number of audiophile systems over the years, attending a number of SQ sound off's and also on back to back listening on B&W top line 800d & 801d .These retail in NZ for $40 k plus. 800's have dual 10's verse the 801's single 15 and had a top end amps and CD / Dac combo worth an additional $70k. The dual tens in my view where far more musical as did the person buying them. A couple of muso mates that play bass guitars prefer bass cabs running 4x10's rather than 12's or 15's. This is for the same reason.

And the Focal Grande Utopia Be which retail for $200k ish use a 15" driver for <50hz. The point of the whole concept is that different sized drivers suit different cars; there's no golden rule.

[advantex 0]

Loving the info I am getting here. I have to kinda agree with smaller subs (only for my purposes) and just for two reasons. Less physical size and less boom - I am not really into thumping bass 80% out of proportion to what it should sound like in reality anyway.

Sound travels at the speed of sound. Sound reflections (echo effects, revibrations, ressonance etc) because of environment can cause a bad effect. Real-sub-base is not critical because of such a low frequency, it can even be 180degrees out of phase and have little impact on the overall sound depending on the crossover point. Some will argue with this but in reality the ear can seldom tell the difference beacause you can't hear low frequency "sub"-base, you can only feel its effect and its effect comes from the environment you are sitting in - hard to control anyway.

Smaller subs tend to respond a bit better to mid-range low frequency. T.H.X for example reccomends a crossover at 80Hz and below this is where the mid-ranges should have some performance likewise so should the sub be able to perform above this.

Still looking. Most of what I have found to date is sales crap and people who have been given a job two levels above their competency and knowledge - but still looking all the same.

Edit: Thanks!!!! where did that come from? Dam HTML thinking for me - changed to T.H.X

Edited July 23, 2008 by advantex

[Five Star 0]

You can actually tell where sub bass is coming from. It's just far harder.

What you said about the 'thumping bass' is purely tuning. You can be running 3x 15 inch subs and not have the thumping bass.

And yes, anything below 80hz is still needed. Go have a listen to some good systems and then listen to them with their sub not running. You'll notice something is missing

Also, I know what you mean about useless salespeople with car audio. I've found few who know what they're doing, and even less who aren't completely bias.

[Heresharry 0]

Ive got one of these-

1x DEHP800BT

http://www.pioneernz.co.nz/default.asp?Obj...kCode=DEHP800BT

Its the dogs as far as im concerned i only bought it for Bluetooth and it far exceeded my expectations.....

[rogan 7]

Although most component speakers have specs like 55hz-22khz frequency response, you'll be hard pressed to get down to 55hz. I think if you can get <80hz with authority from front speakers then you're doing well. The speaker companies aren't lying, it's just you'll struggle to make an enclosure that allows the speakers to drop that far in the car environment.

I know what you're saying about sub localisation, but what does give sub locations away is rattles. I have mine crossed at 71hz with 24db slope and it's hard to pick location. If I change it up to around 90 with 12db slope then you can start to locate it.

In my opinion the better you can get your front midbass, the better blend you get with the sub. If you have weak midbass then you are going to struggle integrating the sub regardless of how well you tune it.

Edited July 26, 2008 by rogan

[Five Star 0]

Rattles..?

Not enough midbass?

Dynamat extreme is your answer!

[advantex 0]

Some people are gonna hate this!

So, here is where I am at. I will probably use the WM4’s as rear speakers but will buy suitable quality others for fronts and tweeters – reason, spare B&W speakers would cost too much to fit, too much modification etc and this is a track I don’t want to go down. This is due to their physical size.

Still to listen to Nakamachi, some upper end JVC’s, Clarion and a few other head units. So far I have been quite impressed. I wont deal with amp units until I have sorted what I am going to do with speaker selection. Same goes for sub (which I will install as advised in the rear arm-rest/ boot space area.

Had five people listen critically to the system now which consists of Sanyo head, Pioneer kick area fronts, no dash tweeters and B&W WM4’s mounted on back shelf. Four gave the sound quality at 6~7 out of 10, one person gave it a 5 out of 10. That last person has won 4 awards recently for sound system in his vehicle (in NZ) – he was suitably impressed and his system of 14 speakers and 5 subs and has cost mega dollars.

I will now look at 4 or 8 ohm speakers only and head and amps in a much more serious note, however now more resolute not to accept gimmick, sales talk, casual opinions or hear-say on sound quality. My independent sound test listeners rate the one and only modification I have made (replaced the rear speakers with B&W) very highly!

Conclusion, use your ears to listen to the sound, not what other people tell you! Believe a tenth of what you read and then go substantiate that 1/10th anyway before making a financial outlay.

Specs revised:

Dash tweeters, 10†sub in rear armrest area, 5~6†kick area midrange, full range rears will be B&W WM4’s at this stage.

Head unit to be simple but high quality CD/DVD player and must have accessible USB, CF card slot or built in hard drive. Head unit must know what a DVD-R is and be able to play it. Simple volume control/ Joystick type select function is all I require from head unit.

I will then select appropriate amps, all to be class AB (no digital - class D) etc to match up the system.

Budget now increased (assume rear speakers done) to $5000.

Edited August 6, 2008 by advantex

[Five Star 0]

5k? All installed by yourself? You should get some goooood sound for that.

I'm a bit out of date with model numbers so I'll post up some models for you to have a look at tomorrow..

HU - Clarion/eclipse/alpine (if they still have USB and haven't fallen into the ipod trap)

Speaker amps - JL/DD/Doesn't matter too much(quite outdated on this one, but I've heard good things about the new JL amps.. also depends if you're going to run active, semi active or passive)

Sub amp - Jaycar mono (all you need, gives you more money to spend elsewhere)

Front splits - Boston/Polk/DD/Focal/DLS(there's a million to listen to)

Sub - Boston/Image dynamics/polk/rainbow

Dynamat extreme - bulk pack

Plus install

To be honest I haven't heard much of the components of your price range, only the boston pros which blew my mind. I'll be able to find model numbers and recommendations tomorrow. But then again it's all about how it sounds to you... just remember the dynamat and you'll be sorted!

I'm also interested in how you'll be installing the sub.. what ideas do you have in mind?

[rogan 7]

one person gave it a 5 out of 10. That last person has won 4 awards recently for sound system in his vehicle (in NZ) – he was suitably impressed and his system of 14 speakers and 5 subs and has cost mega dollars.

Why an sq car would have 5 subs, let alone 14 speakers in beyond me. 10 speakers 2 sub is about the absolute max and most serious competitors are doing plenty less.

Dash tweeters, 10†sub in rear armrest area, 5~6†kick area midrange, full range rears will be B&W WM4’s at this stage.

There's good stuff being written overseas about the HAT Clarus components. Aside from that it's audition audition audition.

I will then select appropriate amps, all to be class AB (no digital - class D) etc to match up the system.

Totally agree

Wouldn't recommend the Jaycar amps or the DD components.

Have got a high end set of Focal compoenets for sale if you're interested. Focal Utopia 165W3 3 way components

[advantex 0]

Why an sq car would have 5 subs, let alone 14 speakers in beyond me. 10 speakers 2 sub is about the absolute max and most serious competitors are doing plenty less.

He owns a huge van. Although not my style, his pics were very impressive. Open the back door and "holy shite" - open air concert sort of thing!

[rogan 7]

He owns a huge van. Although not my style, his pics were very impressive. Open the back door and "holy shite" - open air concert sort of thing!

Show car then; all show no go. What you find with serious competitors is that they'll turn off all but one sub in competitions to avoid cancellations from phase, reflections etc.

In fact sq competition rules limit the number of subs and speakers you can run

[advantex 0]

Yesterday was a fantastic day. I got off early and went window/ear shopping.

Conclusion:

I have already spent more $ on this bimmer than it is worth so might as well go a bit further. At least I own it, love it and if I am gonna spend time in it I might as well get it reasonably right.

Sub:

Kicker 10†square sub would suit my requirement. It fits nicely, easy box to manufacture and install in boot space. Kicker S10L5 appeals because it has moderate low freq response, available in 4ohm and the mono amp designed to drive it seems ok also. The high response of 100hz should allow smooth transition at 24db per octave around the 80hz thanks recommendation and allow the front combos and especially the rear WM4’s (which full range down to 35hz) to work better in their spec ranges. I believe it will effectively give the rears a deeper punch rather than boom.

Now talking to Eastland Hi-Fi (Paul), he gave me a lot of ideas. Although a true salesman – but still a nice person, he did come up with some interesting possibilities.

Rears:

As stated, I have spent more than the car’s worth so go the whole hog. I will wait till I get leather seats from Brent. My idea now is to remove the rear headrests and back shelf. I am skilled in 3dCAD so will draw up whole new back shelf to accommodate the WM4’s and rear headrests (detached from seat). This will be routed out on our works CNC milling machine from laminated boards, multi-sectioned so it is easy to install/ remove. It will be leathered on front to match headrests and blend into the seat line. Thus the back end is decided (bar comments on sub selection). Objective, you can still see easily out the back window but you have to look twice to tell the difference between the rear headrests and the WM4’s above them. This new shelf unit will be coved in similar lines and curves to match the car so it blends nicely.

Dash Tweeters:

Again, use 3dCAD. Remove dash grills, use as template to create new structure to house the tweeters and still give the ventilation system its needs. This will be routed out on CNC mill using black umphy (hope I spelled that right – an industrial nylon type substance) raising the tweeters and pointing them forward towards the cab.

Centre Stage:

This configuration lends itself to a mid front seat ‘centre-stage’ which I think is what I prefer anyway having listened to a lot of cars recently. The subtle sound delays between fronts and rears give a ‘surround sound’ or ‘live performance’ hint to the music which I like.

There are some new head units to be released in the next month (in NZ). I have arranged for the PDF’s to be emailed to me and await their arrival. However, as amps are going to be the major sound drive devices, all I am going to need on the head end is good quality output to the amps. CD quality is important, but will not be used anywhere as much as removable electronic media. JVC KDG845 is similar to what I am looking for in simplicity, have not yet go in-depth with this unit.

EDIT " thanks" is the forums way of translating T.H.X (a sound standard)

Edited August 9, 2008 by advantex

[advantex 0]

Show car then; all show no go. What you find with serious competitors is that they'll turn off all but one sub in competitions to avoid cancellations from phase, reflections etc.

correct, he told me he does do that. But it still sounds really good.

[Five Star 0]

The jaycar mono is fine for your needs, has easily enough power and is small. The price makes it worth it so you can spend more money where it counts..

Have you heard the new german DD's..? A lot of people are raving about them.

Can't say I'm a fan of that sub but if you like it, go for it.

I was also wondering about the number of speakers.. was going to say it shows how far NZ car audio has come We're years behind the rest of the world.

Also, spend more on your source (HU) and final output (speakers) than your amps.

I've asked around and here's an updated list of gear to listen to.. just remember there's a million more than what's on here

Speaker amps - Can't really recommend model numbers until you figure out if you're going to be running active or passive

Sub amp - Jaycar mono

Front splits - Boston Pro60SE/Polk MMC6500/Focal165K2P

Sub - Boston G5-10/Image dynamics IDQ 10/Polk SR124

Dynamat extreme - bulk pack

Sorry ran out of time to research Head units, although I've heard good things about the alpine 9887, new eclipse and clarion (by the sounds of it, the clarion is the way to go for your needs).

Back to study, let us know if you can find anywhere to audition decent gear

[rogan 7]

There's a bit of a quantum jump from quality UK speakers to the Kicker L5. Personally I'd rather have a rectal examination from Edward Scissorhands than have that sub in my car. If that's the best sounding sub the store had then I suggest going to a different store. With that sub I'd save some coin and space and get class D amps, you won't hear the difference.

B&W specs a frequency response of 72hz to 20khx for those speakers http://bwmedia.keycast.com/download/Librar...F_l10_w0_h0.pdf

Where did you get 35hz from?

If you get your front stage right you won't need anything much in the back if at all. Maybe a pair of coaxials for some rear fill but certainly not the type of rear system you're thinking of.

[Five Star 0]

I have to agree about that sub.. I wouldn't include that sub in a $1000 system, let alone a $5000 one.

[rogan 7]

Don't know if you're considering 2nd hand but this sub is worth a good look:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/C...n-170774647.htm

The guy who's selling it had it running off a DLS amp and was only giving it about 200rms. It'll happily handle 400rms so it hasn't been thrashed at all. Box is 0.9ft3 gross.

He's bought a pair of IDQ10 v3 for his new car so it's a genuine reason for sale. Guessing he'd take $220 outside trademe (have contact details if needed).

The subs are ugly - pressed steel basket in a turquoise colour but damn do they make up for their ugliness in sound quality. Anyway you don't see the basket once it's boxed. Apart from the new IDQv3, this is the best sounding sub I have ever heard. Made my old Focal Utopia seem boomy!

I'll be using the IDQv3 when I finally get round to my sub install.

Also some brand new amps on sale:

DC Audio opening sale

Sale ends 17 Aug

http://forums.nzicemag.co.nz/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20306

Sundown brand. US brand with a good international reputation.

Product - RRP - Sale - One Off Price

SAX 100.2 - 549 - 439 - 360

SAX 100.4 - 799 - 639 - 530

SAX-100.2 CLASS A/B 2 CHANNEL

SPECIFICATIONS:

* 100 x 2 watts @ 4 ohms

* 200 x 2 watts @ 2 ohms

* 400 x 1 watts @ 4 ohms bridged

* Damping Factor > 200 @ 4 Ohms

* 0.2v - 6v adjustable input sensitivity

* 10 Hz - 40,000 Hz Frequency Response

* Channel Separations: 75 dB

* > 90 dB S/N Ratio

* 4-Way Protection Circuit (Thermal, Overload, Speaker Short, and Over Current)

* Selectable HP / LP / FULL crossover

* 50 Hz - 500 Hz adjustable 18dB Low-Pass Crossover

* 50 Hz - 500 Hz adjustable 18dB High-Pass Crossover

* 0 - 18 dB adjustable bass boost with 45 Hz center frequency

* Wired Remote Control unit included

* 3x 20 Amp Internal Fuses

* 13.375" L x 9.9" W x 2" H

SAX-100.4 CLASS A/B 4 CHANNEL

SPECIFICATIONS:

* 100 x 4 watts @ 4 ohms

* 160 x 4 watts @ 2 ohms

* 320 x 2 watts @ 4 ohms bridged

* Damping Factor > 200 @ 4 Ohms

* 0.2v - 6v adjustable input sensitivity

* 10 Hz - 40,000 Hz Frequency Response

* Channel Separations: 75 dB

* > 90 dB S/N Ratio

* 4-Way Protection Circuit (Thermal, Overload, Speaker Short, and Over Current)

* Selectable HP / LP / FULL crossover

* CH 1 & 2 Variable HP crossover 50 - 5000 Hz @ 12 dB

* CH 1 & 2 Variable LP crossover 50 - 500 Hz @ 12 dB

* CH 3 & 4 Variable HP crossover 50 - 500 Hz @ 12 dB

* CH 3 & 4 Variable LP crossover 50 - 5000 Hz @ 12 dB

* 10 Hz - 500 Hz variable subsonic filter (CH 1&2 and CH 3&4)

* Subsonic filter allows for band-passed crossover configuration

* 0 - 18 dB adjustable bass boost

* 35 - 120 Hz Variable Bass Boost Center Frequency

* Wired Remote Control unit included

* 3x 30 Amp Internal Fuses

* 16.5" L x 9.9" W x 2" H

[Apex 693]

How did you get on with the Kicker?? I just installed an L7 10†and can assure you it goes bloody well.

If you want any info on kicker and a good deal call Jamie at Pro Custom installs, he’ll sort you out.

0211707425

[advantex 0]

B&W specs a frequency response of 72hz to 20khx for those speakers http://bwmedia.keycast.com/download/Librar...F_l10_w0_h0.pdf

Where did you get 35hz from?

Quite correct. Not sure where my head was when I typed that cause I pulled that from recent memory (obviously from the wrong memory location LOL). I have been looking at sooooo many different systems lately its getting confusing.

[advantex 0]

Rogan:

These amps, along with others I have looked at seem fine. The speakers seem to be will respected.

Apex:

Not yet decided but will bear that in mind – thanks.

Problem with listening to stuff in shops is there is no real way of telling what they are going to sound like in the vehicle. The kicker sounded good and would fit well as a 'sub' (in the shop that is). They sound great in my friends van, but that’s a van not a car. A lot of people I have talked with say kicker speakers are fine, some here wouldn't have them.

What I have done is listened to quite a few 'other peoples' setups in their own cars. This is what I have found to be quite common with the set-ups of others - or it might just be me.

• Bass is not punchy but booms to the point of being wildly unrealistic OR it has a punchy sound but has a clouded upper end which overpowers the low midrange and makes that mushy sounding.

• Mid-range missing that harmonious 'presence' that is so distinctive with many female vocals. A sax does not sound like a sax – close, but not the same. Perhaps that is why I like the WM4’ so much. They excel in this range.

• Most top end treble seemed to sound OK, some I listened to was distorted with percussion instruments (but that could have been the recording also).

I didn’t use my CD’s, just whatever they had in the player at the time. Now this might not be the equipment, it could be how they have set it up to suit what they like. In other words, it sounds good to them and that is fine.

[rogan 7]

• Bass is not punchy but booms to the point of being wildly unrealistic OR it has a punchy sound but has a clouded upper end which overpowers the low midrange and makes that mushy sounding.

• Mid-range missing that harmonious 'presence' that is so distinctive with many female vocals. A sax does not sound like a sax – close, but not the same. Perhaps that is why I like the WM4’ so much. They excel in this range.

A pretty fair assessment I think. One of the problems in car is getting low midbass with authority. You've got to do a hell of alot of work to get frequency response below about 80hz with authority and alot of cars are nowhere near that (ie 120+hz). This leaves a gap in the frequency range output and alot of people try to compensate by boosting the sub or the midbass which then dulls the midrange.

IMO, front low midbass is the key to a good system. Get down to 70hz and below and getting the whole system to start sounding good gets alot easier.

There was a post on nzice from Ablomech (aka Dean) who'd probably be one of this country's most knowledgeable car audio people. I understand he's now working for Arvus doing R&D. Basically he was talking about trying to get low midbass (100hz from memory) from a 6.5" driver and the limitations of cone area in relation to db output for dynamic range. He theoretically demonstarted that you need drivers over 6" to get these frequencies at sufficient output.

Auditioning speakers is very difficult. There's substantial difference between components in a shop comparator and those same components in car. Subs can also sound markedly different in the 2 enviroments. Unfortunately you can only really listen to big brand name speakers in most shops in NZ so I've found it's easier to do research and then take a leap of faith. It's worked for me but I'm sure one day I'll buy something that sounds cr@p. Realistically the enclosure you make in car will do as much if not more for your sound than your selection of speakers once you get to a certain quality point in speakers

[advantex 0]

I got the brochure of new Clarion devices today. Look good, smell good, taste good so visited their website and checked them out.

Read the user manuals of the two top end head units that suited my specs, alas, lots of talk about ACC, MP3, WMA , iPod and timing etc but no mention of USB .wav.

I can only assume you cannot play .wav files from anything unless it is a CD. That is what I gather based on what I read and is also not the way I want to go. Will grab the rep next time he is in Gisborne, toss him a .wav usb flash and see what the unit does (he has it in his car). The DXZ786USB is kind of along the ‘simplistic’ lines I am looking for, has colour changeable display (amber) which is matching, pity about the rear USB – however that could always be cabled and mounted elsewhere and such a thought might be more a practical idea anyway.

They look very functional though. Speakers on outward appearance seem to be OK but I cannot find any specifics on their site about individual units, just overall specs on ‘the range’.

Will keep looking.

Might end up doing what you suggested Rogan, tell someone what I want, what type of music I listen to, cross my fingers and go buy it - end up saying ‘holy (something)’ depending on the result LOL.