M50B25 - Spark Map

[rds 0]

Morn,

My car is running well with the LC-1 o2 all hooked in and tuning to AFR table. The car runs well currently it has got good pickup reponse etc.. but I was hoping to get the most out of the engine.

Currently im running a spark map that I created from a calculator that I found on the internet, the calc is based on basic engine charactistics. I was wondering if anyone has a really good spark map (or stock map) that has been tested with the M50B25.

Cheers!!!

Ill post up my current one tonight

[*Glenn* 854]

You could try Gavin @ High Velocity... Ph (09) 4424451

[rds 0]

Current Map

[*Glenn* 854]

Current Map

Has that been done on a dyno? or is this just a static map youve loaded ?.... to get it right your going to have to spend some money on Dyno Time with the right tuner

[barf 0]

yo rds, jumping on your thread.

that spark map was done by calculation with an Excel spreadsheet (anyone interested in a copy?) - it's also a conservative estimate and not going to be perfect! major paramaters in the function are:

* valves per cylinder

* bore size

* RON

* squish and quench

good squish/quench in the m50b25 head and spark plug located centrally; so more retarded timing than a 2-valve per cylinder head, for example. maximum advance on newer heads (and pistons) is lower than old heads due to better flame front kinetics.

anyone going to sponsor the dyno time? :-P

summit road on the port hills is just a big dyno with corners isn't it? can't test the barometric altitude correction on a dyno-meter.

what approach do the tuners on here take to spark map adjustments once you're on the dyno?

[rds 0]

yo rds, jumping on your thread.

that spark map was done by calculation with an Excel spreadsheet (anyone interested in a copy?) - it's also a conservative estimate and not going to be perfect! major paramaters in the function are:

* valves per cylinder

* bore size

* RON

* squish and quench

For anyone wondering wtf RON is = Research Octane Number in this case 95

I was kinda hoping Junky was going to post his map

And yes if anyone has a dyno just lying around unused, I would be keen for a spin.

[barf 0]

here is some more links for reference, or those interested:

MS2 Extra manual: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/

MS2 Spark Map tuning: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Ex...l.html#sparkmap

Choosing spacing of RPM and MAP bins correctly for your application: http://www.not2fast.com/efi/spacing.shtml

[Boost Junky 1]

Hey Rhys, before my car was turbo it was factory M50 with ECU, was never dyno tuned sorry man. I pretty much dropped the motor in with the ECU and away she went.

Luke

[No name user 379]

if i can give any advise which doesnt seem to mean much around here

do not what ever you do copy or take someones word to what map to use either fuel or ignition

i get asked all the time for copies of what i do, get it tuned with the right gear on it for checking det etc

deside what fuel your going to use and go from there, no car is 100% the same even charging voltage can change a tune, little details can be costly

so please ignore this im just thinking out loud,

[*Glenn* 854]

if i can give any advise which doesnt seem to mean much around here

do not what ever you do copy or take someones word to what map to use either fuel or ignition

i get asked all the time for copies of what i do, get it tuned with the right gear on it for checking det etc

deside what fuel your going to use and go from there, no car is 100% the same even charging voltage can change a tune, little details can be costly

so please ignore this im just thinking out loud,

The thing is .... irrespective of what others may say... your 100% correct

[rds 0]

if i can give any advise which doesnt seem to mean much around here

do not what ever you do copy or take someones word to what map to use either fuel or ignition

i get asked all the time for copies of what i do, get it tuned with the right gear on it for checking det etc

deside what fuel your going to use and go from there, no car is 100% the same even charging voltage can change a tune, little details can be costly

so please ignore this im just thinking out loud,

Whats the gear you use for checking det? A knocksensor?

I was keen to have a look at someones spark map to know if im in the ballpark, not necessarily copy bin to bin.

but thanks for the heads up

[No name user 379]

Whats the gear you use for checking det? A knocksensor?

I was keen to have a look at someones spark map to know if im in the ballpark, not necessarily copy bin to bin.

but thanks for the heads up

it doesnt matter what gear your in det is det and shouldnt be there, copy or not you need the right tools to do the job.

hay its your car do as you may but what your trying to do wouldnt happen in my shop.

[topcat 11]

i'm loving this thread

please follow the advice from above.

a proper tune is going to save you A LOT OF MONEY.

but dont take my work for it. boost it till it dets.then boost some more.

post your results.please.

Edited March 20, 2010 by BM Weapon

[rds 0]

it doesnt matter what gear your in det is det and shouldnt be there, copy or not you need the right tools to do the job.

hay its your car do as you may but what your trying to do wouldnt happen in my shop.

I understand it doesn't matter what gear your in, its all about load but that wasn't what I was asking

Ill reword my question, what piece of kit do you use to check for det or pre-ignition? a kocksensor?

What would happen in your shop? Other then a dyno what are the "right tools"?

Are we talking about an electronic stethoscope like one of these http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?t...re=snapon-store if so do i need the $1000 one?

Cheers,

Rhys

Edited March 21, 2010 by rds

[rds 0]

For those interested this might be worth a read

http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_0348/article.html

[No name user 379]

I understand it doesn't matter what gear your in, its all about load but that wasn't what I was asking

Ill reword my question, what piece of kit do you use to check for det or pre-ignition? a kocksensor?

What would happen in your shop? Other then a dyno what are the "right tools"?

Are we talking about an electronic stethoscope like one of these http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?t...re=snapon-store if so do i need the $1000 one?

Cheers,

Rhys

i have my own knock monitor and use a wideband plus knowing how to read plugs is very important, you also need to know that no much or not enough fuel can create knock.

spark isnot the only thing you need to worry about and since yourve never tuned before i recomend you get someone that has or youll learn that the "big bang theory" isnt just a tv show.

[robyota 0]

i'm loving this thread

please follow the advice from above.

a proper tune is going to save you A LOT OF MONEY.

but dont take my work for it. boost it till it dets.then boost some more.

post your results.please.

Interesting you say that you love the thread when you don't seem to have read it.. The engine isn't running any boost, it's NA and he's in the process of giving it a "proper tune" using a wideband o2 sensor. This is the same tool that dyno shops use.

He is asking if anyone has a copy of a M50 spark map, so he can use this information to make some educated adjustments to his own tune which, like he says, is already running quite well using a Megasquirt - a DIY-Kitset Engine Management System - with no "professional" tuning whatsoever.

The prevailing attitude here seems to be that tuning a car is a task beyond comprehension, and can only be achieved by paying mystical engine-wizards who are the only ones capable of understanding how an engine works. This is both funny and sad at the same time.

All these ignorant people who feel the need to tell rds that he's "going to blow his engine up" or that he should "just pay for a tune" can just go home now, obviously the topic of conversation here is way over their heads.

[westy 614]

Is it any wonder proper experts dont hang around on forums.

[No name user 379]

Interesting you say that you love the thread when you don't seem to have read it.. The engine isn't running any boost, it's NA and he's in the process of giving it a "proper tune" using a wideband o2 sensor. This is the same tool that dyno shops use.

He is asking if anyone has a copy of a M50 spark map, so he can use this information to make some educated adjustments to his own tune which, like he says, is already running quite well using a Megasquirt - a DIY-Kitset Engine Management System - with no "professional" tuning whatsoever.

The prevailing attitude here seems to be that tuning a car is a task beyond comprehension, and can only be achieved by paying mystical engine-wizards who are the only ones capable of understanding how an engine works. This is both funny and sad at the same time.

All these ignorant people who feel the need to tell rds that he's "going to blow his engine up" or that he should "just pay for a tune" can just go home now, obviously the topic of conversation here is way over their heads.

no one has abused him and since this is your first post i would say you must be a mate of his

the topic way over my head?

i think we all know what a megasquirt is but thanks for the heads up.

and i think there maybe good reason for using the pros to do a job versus asking on a forum and do a hit and miss as i havent been tuning very long so i cant help much.

but it sounds like you have a handle on things so i guess theres no point asking anyone here is there?

and ill say sorry to him if it makes you feel better, im still new at this and only been doing this for over 22yrs and writting for different mags but with your outstanding input im picking up great skills,

many thanks

[rds 0]

Is it any wonder proper experts dont hang around on forums.

What does this even mean?

Edited March 21, 2010 by rds

[robyota 0]

no one has abused him and since this is your first post i would say you must be a mate of his

the topic way over my head?

i think we all know what a megasquirt is but thanks for the heads up.

and i think there maybe good reason for using the pros to do a job versus asking on a forum and do a hit and miss as i havent been tuning very long so i cant help much.

but it sounds like you have a handle on things so i guess theres no point asking anyone here is there?

and ill say sorry to him if it makes you feel better, im still new at this and only been doing this for over 22yrs and writting for different mags but with your outstanding input im picking up great skills,

many thanks

My post wasn't directed at you, and yeah I know rds, so what?

I guess I felt I had to state the obvious about what a Megasquirt was.. much like you did when when you pointed out engine detonation shouldn't be happening no matter what gear the car is in.

I never claimed to be an expert, but tuning an engine isn't exactly experimental nuclear physics. All I said was that people telling him to go pay for a "proper tune" are missing the point - this is a DIY effort.

Maybe instead of being so smug and talking down to people, you could offer some tips and pointers that you've picked up over the course of your 22 years tuning.

Can't really blame you for trying to protect your source of income though.. It's just a real pity it gets in the way of sharing information

[rds 0]

i have my own knock monitor and use a wideband plus knowing how to read plugs is very important, you also need to know that no much or not enough fuel can create knock.

spark isnot the only thing you need to worry about and since yourve never tuned before i recomend you get someone that has or youll learn that the "big bang theory" isnt just a tv show.

OK cool, what model knock monitor do you use? Does this hook up to a OEM sensor or does it come with one?

I currently do have a wideband o2 in my tailpipe, and the ECU is tuning to a AFR table.

Sweet you've been doing it for 22 years!! please give me some advice on how to best tune an engine thats what im after. Please dont tell me to go spend money, because I want to learn and the best way to do this is to go balls deep. If it blows up...its only $800.

Do you listen to the engine with your sethiscope in real-time or do you put it out to a graph so you can make changes after the run?

Also since im tuning to an AFR table I should be pretty safe with my fuel surely. I know for a fact im not leaning it out massivly and going to make it go boom. If i was getting heaps of preignition, would I feel it in the accel pedal? does pre-ignition screw/change the wideband readout??

Thanks,

Rhys

Edited March 21, 2010 by rds

[rds 0]

no one has abused him and since this is your first post i would say you must be a mate of his

the topic way over my head?

i think we all know what a megasquirt is but thanks for the heads up.

and i think there maybe good reason for using the pros to do a job versus asking on a forum and do a hit and miss as i havent been tuning very long so i cant help much.

but it sounds like you have a handle on things so i guess theres no point asking anyone here is there?

and ill say sorry to him if it makes you feel better, im still new at this and only been doing this for over 22yrs and writting for different mags but with your outstanding input im picking up great skills,

many thanks

I dont think hes saying its over your head man. Its the people chiming in with the pointless posts

But could you please let me know how you do it?

Edited March 21, 2010 by rds

[*Glenn* 854]

A DIY using Megasquirt with someone elses spark map will get the car running.... but to get it right, it needs the proper equipment and usually a person with more experience doing it

[CamB 48]

And the point is that you should never just trust someone else's fuel and ignition maps (point number 1), and that it should be tuned by someone who knows what they're doing (point number 2).

It is possible that "someone who knows what they're doing" is an amateur, so point number 3 is simply that if you want to know for certain, get it done / tidied up / checked by a pro.

I'm going to have a go at getting my turbo M10 to run, but only because the engine that's gone into it cost $80. I don't expect to do a good job but if I can get it started and idling ok that will (hopefully) assist the tuning process.