Heel and Toe

[Grant 4]

Hello All

I am determined to learn to Heel and Toe properly. I have tried it on occassion, but it is harder than it looks (unless I am really that unco-ordinated??).

Who here is fluent in the art of Heel and Toe driving? How long did it take to learn and get it right all of the time?

I am thinking that like most things, practice will make perfect. From what I have read, us E30 owners are pretty lucky and that the pedals in our cars are ideally located and spaced for this.

Cheers

[E30-323ti 66]

I do it regularly.

Yeah, the E30 is prolly the easiest I've found.

The hardest part is getting the blips right!?!?!

As you said "practice makes perfect"

[Grant 4]

The hardest part is getting the blips right!?!?!

Yup, when I try it just sounds aweful, I am either blipping it far too much, or just too slowly to get the sequence right.

Cheers

[Gus 5]

i try do it....helpful....i use my heel for the throttle...couldnt do it the other way round...but yeah the 'blipping' takes heaps of practice...im nowhere near

[bumpstop325 0]

drifting? me try. me no good...............yet

[Guest Spargo]

Yea, i heel toe all the time, and i've started double clutching too, just so it's another skill i have.

The E30 is almost ideal for a good heal toe, but seeing as the pedals are so close together, you could almost use the left and right sides of your foot and see if that makes it any easier./

[E30_318i 0]

My feet are too big.

Haven't tried double clutching either. Might try tomorrow. Truckies do it all the time tho.

Edited March 31, 2004 by E30_318i

[Guest Andrew]

Yea, i heel toe all the time, and i've started double clutching too, just so it's another skill i have.

The E30 is almost ideal for a good heal toe, but seeing as the pedals are so close together, you could almost use the left and right sides of your foot and see if that makes it any easier./

Heal Toe and double clutch.. a lot of people get confused

Heal Toe is part of the double clutch process

(Double Clutch)

Say your in 3rd - you clutch in and put the shifter into neutral clutch out - then rev to what the correct revs for 2nd gear would be.. clutch in and select 2nd then clutch out - .. and its all done very quickly. All that for.. nothing really. .. oh and while braking .. with the other side of your foot.

Probably the most useful thing you can do is match the engine revs to the next gear down as you downshift and brake - this will stop the wheels spinning from going to slowly - this is easy to do (but as some of you might know - it doesn't spin all parts of the gearbox to the right speed as double de-clutching does)

[bumpstop325 0]

as a truck driver, the gearbox in trucks are designed for double clutching. you will f**k the cones on the clutch if you do that on a syncro box.

starting to double clutch is a hard concept to get used to. but practise makes perfect.

[speakeasy 0]

a friend of mine taught me the black art of heel toe once, but i have since stopped and now suck. but it helps when your learning to start in bare feet.

[Gus 5]

hmmm...bare feet....so good...get scum looks at uni though

[dave 2]

hmmm...bare feet....so good...get scum looks at uni though

hahah i love it, no looks from the massey bogans!!

bare feet is the best.... any thoughts andy?

[bumpstop325 0]

no shoes when raining. so i dont et my shoes wet.

ppl ask me if im cold. but no. even when walking around in stubbies at massey(pnth)

[Guest Spargo]

More On Double-Clutching...

Posted By: Ray Pipkin

Date: Sat, 1/7/2000, 12:13 p.m.

In Response To: heel-toe shifting is good: (Raj Dev)

There seems to be some confusion between double-clutching and the "heel & toe" method on downshift. For starters, one can either double-clutch or not while using the "heel & toe" method. Without double-clutching, tapping the accelerator in the middle of the gear change with the clutch pedal depressed causes engine speed to match road speed when the clutch is released. However, because the clutch disk and transmission are not being driven when the accelerator is depressed,this method does NOTHING toward bringing the clutch/transmission up to output speed.

In the "heel & toe" method WITH double clutching, the accelerator is tapped in the middle of the downshift with the clutch pedal out and the gear momentarily in neutral. By this method, BOTH the engine and the clutch/tranny are brought up to speed before the downshift is completed.

In an automotive transmission, almost all of the rotating mass is on the input side. That is, (1) the input (or fourth) gear which drives the countershaft, (2) all of the remaining four drive gears (in a 5-speed) plus reverse drive gear, (3) the countershaft, (4) the countershaft gears (in constant mesh with the drive gears), as well as (5) the reverse driver gear and shaft, are PERMENENTLY ganged to the input shaft to which the clutch disk is splined, and rotate with it. Only the synchronizer drums are splined to the output shaft and rotate with that. All of this rotating mass, along with the clutch disk, must be brought up to speed before a downshift can occur.

If double-cluthching is not used, than the clutch/tranny-to-output speed is equalized by the momentary slipping of a synchronizer ring on its mating surface. (Depending upon the transmission, the synchro ring can either rotate with the driven gear and mate with the drum, or rotate with the synchronizer drum and mate with the driven gear.) The ring (truncated cone, actually) is made of either bronze or brass so as not to be of the same material as the piece with which it mates, and it is often grooved to let the oil squeeze out during shifting.

I am not a racer, but from what I understand, hard racing can fry the synchro rings, and many racers make a habit of double-clutching. Furthermore, non-BMW racing trannys like Hewland or Staff (spelling?) do not have synchronizers at all. So, while I would agree with Randy Walters and Schem325i that double-clutching is not necessary for normal street driving, I think double clutching saves considerable wear and tear on the synchronizer rings under extreme racing conditions.

Upshifting is usually not a problem, although here too, double-clutching (without the accelerator tap, of course) reduces the work required of the synchronizers. I said that upshifting is USUALLY not a problem because, to reduce tailpipe emissions in some of the newer BMWs (1999 & 2000), the engine rpm does not immediately drop when the accelerator is released. This effect is quite noticeable on upshifts.

This was a good thread. More meaty than most.

Ray Pipkin

Subject: Re: It's redundant

Author: Ove Kvam

Date: Wed, 28 Feb, 13:46 GMT

In Response To: Re: It's redundant by Vic 85 325e

Okay, I'll explain a downshift from 3rd to 2nd. Rmemeber that you will apply some light braking force with the right foot big toe during the entire procedure:

1: Clutch in

2: Gear lever to neutral

3: Clutch out

4: Blip throttle to speed up input shaft

5: Clutch in

6: Gear lever to second gear

7: Rev match with throttle to anticipated RPM in second

8: Clutch out

You use the outside of the right foot on the throttle pedal, and the entire procedure is done in about a second when you are used to it. It is quite difficult the first time! You don't have to release the throttle pedal between step 4 and step 7, and you can start revving up the engine when step 1 is finished to shift faster. If you are good at it, you can even skip step 1 and 3 by getting the timing right. You can take the gear lever out of gear when there is zero load in the drive line without using the clutch. You know you have done it right when the gear lever slips right into gear without resistance, and you can't feel any jerking in the car during step 8.

The method of shifting with rev matching and no clutch does not wear anything if you can actually pull it off. It is however very difficult. I guess you want me to explain the double declutching. In a gearbox, the cogs are always spinning together, but only one set of cogs are connected to the shaft at any given time. The synchros are used to match the speed of the cogs and the shafts so that they can be locked together. By double declutching you match this speeds manually so that the synchros don't have to. That is why it just snaps into gear with no resistance. If you depress the clutch, the input shaft will eventually stop. The syncros will then have to spin it up again unless you help it.

[dave 2]

cheers sam, useful sh*t!

now i can drive round like a knob for the next month while i get the hang of it!

[Grant 4]

cheers sam, useful sh*t!

now i can drive round like a knob for the next month while i get the hang of it!

Very funny Dave, I was just thinking the same thing.

[OLLIE 26]

using either side of my foot is the only way i can figure how to heel toe

[wedge 0]

Double-Clutching in a standard car IMO is a waste of time. The transmissions are built with that in mind, and don't require it. It's only necessary in things like diesel 4wds and bigger, and even then, its only the ones with crap boxes. It's not a strain on the gearbox when it has to speed up to match the input shaft as there's no load on it. Compare it to the strain of the 1-2 shift when one slams it down into 2nd on the drag strip etc, thats a hell of a lot harder on the box. I reckon, just heel toe (i roll my foot to tap the accel), match the revs and keep it nice and smooth. If you can be bothered trying to double-declutch go for it, but it takes months to get consistently smooth-as downshifts.

my 2c.

[*sic 1]

nice point wedge, there aint much point on most boxes.. syncros seem to spring to mind...use em and if they die, they needed fixing anyways

[Gus 5]

...use em and if they die, they needed fixing anyways

tis a great personal motto of mine

[*sic 1]

we all know this

[bumpstop325 0]

if you match the speed of the engine with the speed of the car then you dont need the clutch. takes abit of practise but it works.

make sure that your revs need to be going down to change up and revs need to be going up to change down.