Braided lines vs larger master cylinder

[CamB 48]

Really just looking for experience and/or opinions on ways to firm up the pedal on a pre FL 325i E30. It's got stock pads and rotors, with decent but not race fluid. I've only driven a couple of E30s and the pedal feels about normal, but that's, IMHO, a bit crap compared to most cars so...

1) Who has tried braided hoses and can give an opinion on how they compare to old-as standard hoses, as a standalone change (ie not part of upgrading everything and changing old fluid to new)?

2) Has anyone tried a different master cylinder? It seems from a little internet research the m/c could only be a 20.64mm, so seems to me about a 23mm cylinder would firm things up nicely. I've upgraded the m/c on other cars and it makes a huge difference, but I've had to do it in the past when the calipers have been changed and the pedal has been soft afterwards as the m/c is undersized.

In the absence of experience with either of the above, opinions welcome In particular, keen to find out what m/c might work with the booster. M/c on the car has 3 outlets.

(edit - bonus points if anyone is aware of a m/c upgrade for my 2002)

Edited March 24, 2008 by CamB

[kiwi535 538]

"old as std hoses"

surely thats a good starting point.

[CamB 48]

OK, I checked. The pedal is close enough to "normal" despite the old-as std hoses. Price is a barrier to replacing the hoses "just in case" it helps.

But normal isn't good enough. A larger m/c would improve feel - if you need to brake hard (its for a track car) it's nice to be able to push the pedal hard...

So... does anyone know what fits?

[JiB 0]

E32 MC off 750iL is a 25mm one that apparently bolts on and works superbly.

Also the M3's 23mm, but according to the internets it's not that much difference. Ie..still poos.

I miss my Brembos

I should have a moment of insanity that results in Wilwood superlites, Goodridge lines and a 1" MC installed

edit:

IMHO, a bit crap compared to most cars

Gross understatement! Edited March 25, 2008 by JiB

[hybrid 1043]

Running 330mm/35mm slotted 6pot wilwood sl-6 on the front with m-coupe 315mm/25mm 2pot rears on the e30 m325.

Full braided lines and a Audi88 25mm master cylinder and golf 1.3ltr mkII booter (not needed for simple brake upgrade we only needed it to clear the s50b32 plenum)

pedal feel is great .. sharp and well if you stamp it too hard it will lock up.

Braided / 25mm master cylinder upgrade is well worth it ... got the master cylinder off ebay for about 400 I recall and you can do the lines for about 400-600 pre-certed

[Silver Fox 43]

Set of certed lines for E30 race car under $300 in Auckland.

[CamB 48]

Yeah, around $250-300 is the price I'd dug up for braided lines, probably not far off new factory lines. Hybrid - your setup rules but is beyond the needs of the car.

Thanks for the input so far guys. What I'm really looking for is to mirror my previous experience:

- Peugeot 205gti - slapped in a 306 m/c which came free with a set of front brakes

- Honda EG civic with prelude brakes - prelude 1" m/c and booster was $80.

ie, sub $100 is good. It's only a second-hand m/c. I reckon a 23.81mm e28 or e24 one might work, and is going to be easier to find than the 750i one. There's potentially a wee bit of an issue with 3 outlet vs 2 outlet, but nothing I might not have bodged I mean worked around before.

[hybrid 1043]

yeap .. forget the brakes calipers / discs etc in my post .. what i was trying to illustrate is that a 25mm master cylinder upgrade is the main key to it ... it will fit your factory booster and the cert'd braided line upgrade is the next real key to the puzzle that and some good pads

[Gus 5]

e28 booster works...do you have ABS? I think they need to match...i had one in my old Motorsport and it was ok...firmed up the pedal and slightly less travel, less power though (i cycle, so not a problem)

[CamB 48]

Nah, no ABS.

[JiB 0]

I've been offered a MC off a '88 750i for $100...still $100 and I'm a tight arse Especially for unknown condition and not even sure it'd fit!

Braided lines can be/are covered by an Authority Card which I am in the very slow (read procrastinating/Uni) process of getting, so isn't THAT unfeasible...except my wallet may go into shock, haha.

As for pads, I reckon EBC Yellows on OEM/Brembo blanks (as recommended by Ernst) is the go.

Opinions?

edit: hybrid's wilwoods are so sweet But totally unnecessary for me..but soooo choice!

Edited March 26, 2008 by JiB

[CamB 48]

I'm actually worried that 1" will be too big...

Based on the ATE catalogue, the 750 one is only 2 ports, which means a slightly rangi arrangement with a splitter is needed. It's not actually dodgy, it's just that generally modifying the brake pipes seems to be frowned on, plus its hard work and I've lent someone my brake flaring tool and they haven't given it back yet...

[User Name 19]

Hay guys

i got a 528i which now has a vaccum master cylinder and shortend brake lines - this in far has improved my braking from the old hydraulic brakes that were previously installed, was a cheapfix for my car borrowed the flaring tool to do it too and havnt been happier

well could be if the car wasnt so heavy

[JiB 0]

Have just purchased a set of braided lines. Will post up if there's any difference.

[hybrid 1043]

worlds apart my friend ... rubber vs braided are worlds apart. Im talking firm braking here not putting around town. Youll will notice your brake become more "detailed" in feel.

[JiB 0]

Hmm, braided lines, plus full bleed using RBF600 - installed today (cheers CamB). Brakes have gone from poos...to almost normal. Wouldn't say the feel is anything special either.

Maybe my standards are just too high

Well, pimp rotors and pads on the way. Any one got hook-ups for EBC or Hawk?

Edited April 19, 2008 by JiB

[hybrid 1043]

pads and master cylider dude .. cheap enough to do

[OLLIE 26]

don't bother replacing the master cylinder unless you plan on upgrading your calipers, the master cylinder meets the needs of the E30 standard hydraulic braking system well and i dont believe a bigger MC will improve much. The reason RHD E30's have below average bake pedal feel is becasue the booster / MC is on the left hand side of the car and connected via a bloody long linkage which is always going to have a certain amount of give in it.

If you are on a budget and want to improve your stock E30 braking performance then I would approach things in this order:

0. Full Flush and bleed of system, new quality brake fluid

1. Performance Brake Pads

2. Braided lines

3. Service all calipers & Master Cylinder, honed cyliners and new seals

4. Slotted or cross drilled rotors, if you start getting brake fade at track days

5. Front Brake cooling ducts (if you don't already have them)

even after all of this your pedal feel will still be 'not normal' due to the big linkage i have mentioned already, you just get used to it, the car still brakes friggin well.

[JiB 0]

0, 1, 2 and 4 have been done.

Got EBC Yellows all round, Znoelli S12's (Slotted, TTG and treated), Penrite RBF600, and braided lines from Mal at By'gone.

Car's still bedding in both discs and pads. Will report back after driver's training on the 24th May.

So far the brakes are almost normal. And I'll have a look and see if there's any way of reducing the give in that bloody long linkage.

[JiB 0]

So back from single car sprints at A1GP Taupo track. Brakes are great, so will be leaving them alone for the time being.

The feel's actually quite normal once the pads are warm. And once you get used to using most of the pedal travel.

I have one concern though. The right disc's temperature paint is showing more heat than the left...I thought maybe because the circuit is predominantly left turns this would be normal?

The car was braking pretty straight though, just the odd squirm..pretty sure they weren't locking up at the same time though. But this may have been a case of puddles and things all over the place.