Junior Doctors Strike

[m325i 705]

and start flaming in...

3

2

1

[CamB 48]

I've asked my wife before about that - she says:

a) there aren't that many people in ED with colds/flu (I didn't ask ethnicity because I don't care and neither should you)

b.) she said that there are a lot of people who are in ED because they have something which they should have seen the GP about weeks earlier (but presumably didn't due to cost), which has now become serious

c) a significant number are related to diabetes and its complications.

I know you can (and probably will) put an ethnic spin on that, but you shouldn't, and again its a problem which can be fixed by more health funding (eg free doctors visits).

Re: Nurses - apparently some senior nurses are very, very good. However, they don't have 6 years of specialised training and as a result they have a narrow skillset when it comes to diagnosing patients and managin their care. It's not a criticism, its just a/the reason why they don't have the same responsibility as junior doctors. My wife says the hospital would not/could not work without the dedication, compassion and skill of the nursing staff.

Edited May 1, 2008 by CamB

[lidistick 70]

Obviously you have not been in emergency ward recently. If you really want me to spell them out its called Polynesians (Islanders, Malaysians, Maoris - Maoris are immigrants too!) I would say around 80% are these immigrants.

Over and out.

You sir, are a tool.

I'm a Malaysian and so are many other medical staff.

New Zealand's health care would collapse without immigrant medical professionals holding the system up.

The General Medical team here at Waikato Hospital has among the consultant staff,

= 4 Kiwis, 4 Poms, 1 Egyptian, 1 South African and 1 American.

The registrar pool is more diverse.

3 Malaysians, 1 Pom, 1 West Indies, 1 South African and a solitary Kiwi.

Obviously you haven't WORKED in an emergency department before and thank god for that.

Senior nurses are part of our team. We need them as much as they need us to prescibe medications and assess patients emergently. They've just negotiated their pay deal for 4.2% p.a. and it has NOT addressed their recruitment and retention issues.

We have just had 5 senior nurses leave Waikato hospital for greener pastures. Private hospitals, Australia, Dubai and the UK offer much better terms than what we have in NZ. So that means the ED has less manpower during busy times and we are busy. I invite you to work with us minus your prejudicial attitude.

Despite this, I think a strike is probably not a good idea. I think we should be above industrial action. I knew the hours would be crap. I knew the pay would not make me a millionaire. I however did not envision working in conditions that were unsafe because of a lack of staffing.

As CamB has pointed out. 70hr weeks are not unusual for a junior doctor, especially in Middlemore Hospital. I did 4th and 5th year of medical school there and it was intense. No time to fart even!

Bottomline: this country's health issues are serious. We need to address retaining staff in our hospitals because if we don't, people will leave because of the workload and the fact that there isn't enough cover so leave is unavailable. It may mean pay rises. It may require other incentives. It may mean a tax break for medical staff staying on in NZ. It may mean a yearly bonus.

For those who are striking, I hope you get your deal. I'll be fairly surprised if you did get 10% tho. I guess that having the Defence force staff get 10~12% for 'recruitment and retention' issues may help.

Cheers.

[cainchapman 0]

I'm still in support of the revaluation of all these occupations.

However, there have still been a number of things raised by the media, that have not been covered here. Free meals. So assuming $10 per day worth of free food, 5 days a week. That is a benefit of $2600 (tax free), so to earn this you'd add another $4,250 to your salary.

No overtime, so. Neither do I.

Doctors can earn more overseas...and? So can I, i get offers to go offshore regularly that are worth more than I earn here. I stay because, I have worked offshore and value the lifestyle I have in NZ. You can't compare a 40,000 GBP salary to $120,000 NZD. There is no linear relationship. Someone on $60,000 NZD is better off here than earning 40,000 GBP in London.

Want to earn more and have a stress free life? Call Oceana gold in Otago, they will give you $40 per hour to drive a truck above ground, plus overtime. Want even more, get a job at any mine in Australia.

Sorry to hear your daughter is an Accountant Glenn. I'm sure she could have picked a career that added value to our economy (or lifestyle). KPMG aren't that good to work for globally. PwC are miles better at looking after there staff.

I bet you're glad she's not a laywer though.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Cain

[martyyn 2]

Someone on $60,000 NZD is better off here than earning 40,000 GBP in London.

Your having a laugh.

I was on 55k GBP in London and 75k NZD when I came back and it was like Id gone back to my varsity days of 'own brand' everything, with no holidays, no clothes, no meals out and no booze

I have to earn three times as much in NZ to even get close to the lifestyle that I had in the UK.

Interesting how you define an immigrant Shelley....arent we all immigrants when it comes down to it !?!? Or am I ok because Im white ?

[jjs 60]

Sorry to hear your daughter is an Accountant Glenn. I'm sure she could have picked a career that added value to our economy (or lifestyle). KPMG aren't that good to work for globally. PwC are miles better at looking after there staff.

I bet you're glad she's not a laywer though.

You are painting with very broad strokes there Cain. Have you worked for either KPMG or PWC? Also, what do find so wrong with lawyers? On that note, may I ask what you do for a living?

[cainchapman 0]

I'm an Electrical Engineer. And my wife has worked for both companies. So I am not just casting aspertions. It is just my humble opinion.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Cain

[jjs 60]

I'm an Electrical Engineer. And my wife has worked for both companies. So I am not just casting aspertions.

You didn't answer the lawyer question. Like an electrical engineer, we fix problems and charge people for our time.

[Jeddy 0]

I'm an Electrical Engineer. And my wife has worked for both companies. So I am not just casting aspertions. It is just my humble opinion.

What do you have against accountants and lawyers?

[lidistick 70]

Hi Cain,

The free meals was decided by the High court back in the early 90's. The High court ruled that the nautre of doctors work meant that they could not have a protected lunch break as they may have emergencies that needed to be attended.

So if I bought my lunch and got called away, a doctor incurred 2 losses.

1) No lunch that was paid for.

2) Working during a lunch break.

To make it simple, the high court ruled that the DHB's provide meals for doctors on duty.

Trust me tho, there are many days that we never eat lunch despite it being free just because we don't have time for lunch. And most of the other times that we do have lunch, its a drug company freebie during a course, conference etc.

So its less than the $2600.

[elmarco 56]

Want to earn more and have a stress free life? Call Oceana gold in Otago, they will give you $40 per hour to drive a truck above ground, plus overtime. Want even more, get a job at any mine in Australia.

I saw a job driving a bitumen truck in Western Australia in the Herald not so long ago. $115k AUD salary + benefits.... And that wasn't even in the mines!

Does make me wonder why I tolerate some of the crap at work!!

And just think about the front line police out there (Counties-Manukau especially) - they get paid around the $50k mark for long shifts and get to deal with the scum of society every night! With the distinct possibility of being knifed or beaten up and public flagellation when some bleeding heart liberal takes offence to them doing their job.

And no, I am not a police orifacer.

Edited May 1, 2008 by elmarco

[M325is 0]

If you are offended by my posts please check out my bimmersport blog

[bmw.maniac 1]

If you are offended by my posts please check out my bimmersport blog

No Entries?

[Mike 1]

Immigrants fill the emergency waiting rooms with colds and flu, they should not be there. I didn't say go home. But it would be nice if they did.

On the other hand its ok for immigrants to come into this country if they have a skill in which we need more of.

I don't find this contradicting at all.

So you don't mind having skilled immigrants here, but if they get sick they can f**k off?

sweet deal.

[Braeden320 0]

If you are offended by my posts please check out my bimmersport blog

There is nothing there?

[cainchapman 0]

What do you have against accountants and lawyers?

Re-read the earlier post. No added value. My opinion about lawyers and accountants has nothing to do with the original post. Let it drop. Start a new thread.

On the free meal front, again, I have no problem with it. It is a definite perk and must be taken into account when looking at the entire package. You are probably correct and it has come about from necessity.

Feel free to place the winning bid for the trademe auction for the Skytower climb and see how some of the critical occupations have to spend a day!

Edited May 1, 2008 by Cain

[jjs 60]

Re-read the earlier post. No added value.

So how do electrical engineers add value in a way that two very important professions can't?

[CamB 48]

Doctors can earn more overseas...and? So can I, i get offers to go offshore regularly that are worth more than I earn here. I stay because, I have worked offshore and value the lifestyle I have in NZ. You can't compare a 40,000 GBP salary to $120,000 NZD. There is no linear relationship. Someone on $60,000 NZD is better off here than earning 40,000 GBP in London.

They comparison is about 30% better off taking into account cost of living, and they get the conditions they have signed up for (proper staff levels and they can take their leave).

Free hospital cafe food is apparently not a great deal.

Jobs, like pretty much anything, still come down to supply **and** demand - for the skills in question - there's a shortage of truck drivers in some areas and there're sufficient earnings (thanks to the resources boom) to pay those higher wages. There's (corporate) cash to pay for lawyers and accountants, and competition for the good ones keeps the wages (for good ones) high. There's regional variance in NZ - Christchurch pays lawyers/accountants about 20% less than AKL. For some reason from a pay perspective, the demand/supply thing is not so strong for engineers (I've never understood why - the study is hard enough and the knowledge/skill as well).

I seem to recall a (necessary) jump in police salaries a few years back as part of the recruitment drive. Money talks.

For doctors (junior and senior), supply is very restricted and demand is high. NZ's superior lifestyle doesn't matter that much to your average 25 year old doctor.

Edited May 1, 2008 by CamB

[cainchapman 0]

Have you noticed how when the power goes out. You can still call the Emergency services (or anyone else). We are directly responsible for that. Been in an operating theatre with many of these undervalued medical people working on you. Hospital has lost power. Oh no, they have back up systems. So they can complete their work safely.

GPS, Sonar, Telecommunications. Sir Angus Tait, Sir Robertson Stewart, Peter Maire, Bill Hamilton, Ernest Rutherford, John Britten......and the list goes on. The last 3 aren't Electrical, but have done significant things to make progress.

Imagine where we'd be without people who do something useful. We wouldn't be having this conversation without Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.

And you? got a man who knows some crims and did a deal to get the medals back. Get a drink driver off a charge. Excellent too.

My company makes peoples jobs safer. Actively, we manufacture stuff. Not sue the negligent owner who didn't look after his staff.

Watch this link and then think about how valuable your job might be. Just like the Medical people this thread is about. You never want to see any of the Emergency Services come to see you. They are worth every penny. And I couldn't value a good one.

http://www.danieltobin.com/Lovell/index.html

Edited May 1, 2008 by Cain

[CamB 48]

Without the legal system there would be no incentive to stick to the rules (ie safety). Lawyers aren't completely without use.

[Jeddy 0]

I presume to become an electrical engineer you went to uni? 4years or so?

Lawyers and Accountants and many others professions had to work just as hard to get to where they are an yet your tone sounds like you have absolutely no respect for them

Lawyers and accountants have had important roles in the success of both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs

[jjs 60]

Have you noticed how when the power goes out. You can still call the Emergency services (or anyone else). We are directly responsible for that. Been in an operating theatre with many of these undervalued medical people working on you. Hospital has lost power. Oh no, they have back up systems. So they can complete their work safely.

GPS, Sonar, Telecommunications. Sir Angus Tait, Sir Robertson Stewart, Peter Maire, Bill Hamilton, Ernest Rutherford, John Britten......and the list goes on. The last 3 aren't Electrical, but have done significant things to make progress.

Imagine where we'd be without people who do something useful. We wouldn't be having this conversation without Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.

And you? got a man who knows some crims and did a deal to get the medals back. Get a drink driver off a charge. Excellent too.

My company makes peoples jobs safer. Actively, we manufacture stuff. Not sue the negligent owner who didn't look after his staff.

It's sad as I expected more from someone like you.

You cannot look at all occupations in isolation. Sure you may be able to fix the power when it goes out, but you are one tiny person doing one tiny job in a massive system. Like it or not, lawyers, accountants and a plethora of other people are involved in the way you do your job and how your role is peformed.

We live in a market economy. If a job wasn't "important", it wouldn't exist.

While you can debate over and over which occupation is more important than the other, it won't acheive anything.

Again, it's sad to hear this sort of opinion. The engineers I know are smart, well reasoned and evaluate all the facts at hand before making a decision or voicing an opinion. I guess there is an exception to every rule...

[JiB 0]

Obviously some lawyers are just in it for the money but believe it or not the Judicial system is also a form of protection from Executive and Legislative power. Especially important in Unicameral systems like New Zealand and England where laws can be passed very, very quickly without public knowledge or consultation.

And yes, lawyers are an important part of law. Law helps us keep contracts, law keeps us from a radical state nature. Law helps society exist. So in my opinion, Lawyers have an impact on society's safety.

As for New Zealand's over-worked medical staff? The current political climate under the Clarke administration has been tending toward a socialist state that just happens to root the middle class of New Zealand. Penry's case is a good example

This policy abuse has enabled the District Health Boards to pretend that "brain-drain" is peculiar to New Zealand and that poor pay and poor conditions are just part and parcel. It is not. Countries like Australia and UK also have said brain-drain problems. For example, if all the qualified doctors in New Zealand go to Australia, there would still be a deficit in doctors over there!

There is no time to pretend, there needs to be some serious fixing goin' on! Unfortunately, Ministerial accountability is not what it once was and David Cunliffe will probably refuse to see such a problem as long as he is surrounded by minders willing to take the bullet for him.

Money does indeed talk, and healthcare is not an area where a tired mistake will not harm any one. Unfortunately, the current Cabinet's priorities seem to be skewed. For example, to form a government Labour's sacrifices have resulted in poor decisions. For example, our Foreign Minister is not even part of Cabinet FFS

Re: Immigrants

As for immigrants, the majority of which I have had experience with are hard working and do integrate as best they can. But perhaps you mean the refugees that NZ takes on? The unqualified ones that no one wants to employ? Living in state homes?

I have some first experience with the Burundi refugee population of Northcote, despite being put through humanitarian DISASTERS that no one should ever be put through, they take night courses to try better themselves and work for minimum wage doing the most demeaning jobs. Why? Because no one wants to take them on because people seem to think that ethnicity matters. When no one wants to employ you despite upskilling at every chance you get, some of these people lose hope. They lose hope in the land of the free, the first world that they had hoped for in the first place.

Guess what? Ethnicity doesn't matter, what you do does.

My 2c

Apologies for such a rant.

[Yuen 16]

Ok, so this is deteriorating into one of those threads again. Due to a some members' lack of respect for others. I wasn't going to say anything but since you guys are going for it...

I'm sure we have a whole array of different professions among us on this board. So before you give your opinion on how useless a certain profession is compared to your own, consider that you're out there criticising what someone paid for, studied hard for, and does on a daily basis. Different strokes for different folks. Would you like to hear someone telling you how useless your profession is? They probably could have but kept their mouth shut out of respect.

Same goes for those giving their opinion on race or religion.

We are a BMW club and that's what holds us together - the love for our cars. So sure - off-topic is great and all, but comments that others may be sensitive to shouldn't be made. Some people may feel perfectly comfortable having a debate with others, some might not... it's obvious from some of the above posts that some of us take offense and I don't blame them. Some things are better left unsaid.

[lidistick 70]

Funny thing about medical insurance.

I'm insured too. Even tho I'm working 'in' the system, I absolutely realise that if I needed anything done, it'll take too long.

Why?

A lack of staff.