bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 The car: 1986 prefl e30 325i manual sedan. m20b25. Here is the problem. I just replaced my viscous fan with a new oem one. The old one kept getting caught and jamming, and had eaten through the top pipe on the rad. I have just replaced the fan and the pipe with oem units in the last few weeks, thinking the problem was solved until today. I was driving along and the engine started to overheat. The fan had jammed again! Also it has it has started to eat through the top rad pipe again! Yes i have cable tied it back as far as poss. Anyone know why this keeps happening? And what to do to solve it? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
*Glenn* 854 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 Pictures might help... alignment of something isnt right Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 Pictures might help... alignment of something isnt right Will take some pics now. Anywhere in particular i should take a pic of? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 Here are some pics of engine bay - hope this helps! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bravo 35 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) Something's not right - you have a pre-f/l car with pre f/l expansion tank, but f/l motor (dizzy running off camshaft). But pre f/l diagnostic plug. Someones been dicking around at some stage. Plus the radiator doesn't llok right - hoses not right - you have f/l hoses, but they catching as it's not a f/l radiator. Will look at pictures a bit longer and see where you may be able to rectify. Edit: Maybe someone else can make heads or tails of it - I'm thinking I'd need to look at it in person to figure out what exactly is going on. Edited March 2, 2009 by bravo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 Something's not right - you have a pre-f/l car with pre f/l expansion tank, but f/l motor (dizzy running off camshaft). Plus the radiator doesn't llok right - hoses not right - you have f/l hoses, but they catching as it's not a f/l radiator. Will look at pictures a bit longer and see where you may be able to rectify. Funny i was thinking this the other day (engine looked fl, as you say with dizzy on camshaft) Yes i am a noob at all this! Would putting a fl rad into the car rectify this do you think? And is that a straight bolt in job or does it have to be custom fitted? Just out of interest, did any prefl cars have a fl motor from factory? Or has this been fitted after? chassis no is 0901527 and according to realoem.com its build date was july 1986. It is a kiwi new car too if that makes a difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bravo 35 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) Your problem appears to be the fan being too close to the pipe/motor, so changing the radiator wouldn't make any difference. Are there different fans for pre f/l and f/l? If the f/l fan is further from the motor, this might be the solution as long as it then doesn't foul the radiator. Like I said - hard to say without looking at it. Someone else may be able to visualise it better. I'd say your f/l motor was a retro fit. We've seen the odd "Hybrid" car with both f/l and pre f/l parts but these cars have been late 87 when the switch to f/l was happening. Edited March 2, 2009 by bravo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 Your problem appears to be the fan being too close to the pipe/motor, so changing the radiator wouldn't make any difference. Are there different fans for pre f/l and f/l? If the f/l fan is further from the motor, this might be the solution as long as it then doesn't foul the radiator. Like I said - hard to say without looking at it. Someone else may be able to visualise it better. I'd say your f/l motor was a retro fit. We've seen the odd "Hybrid" car with both f/l and pre f/l parts but these cars have been late 87 when the switch to f/l was happening. Well i can see this being an interesting one!! Does anyone in the hutt or wgtn area wanna have a look at my bastard child of a car to see what i should do?? Would anoption be getting rid of the viscous all together and going for an elec fan, and changin the rad to an aftermarket one of some description? Has anyone done this? and does anyone know of someone in the hutt or wgtn that would be able to do this and a rough cost for the exercise? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickSilver 0 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) No, he has a complete pre-facelift m20b25. The pre-facelift m20b25 use distributor mounted on the end of the camshaft also, but uses the older computer system motronic 1.1 and has the pre-faceift diagnostics plug. All the other PFL bits are there too, ie drivers side expansion thank, the waterpump with the extra fitting, the two gearbox sensors, etc etc From what I can see the motor is not a hybrid, although I've seen them too. Also, all the FANS are the same, (IE the plastic bit) I am unsure if there is a variation in the visous but I dont think so. The photos dont tell me much, but very often I've found that the shroud can be a huge source of problems, I know that the rad pipes in question can run very close to where the fan spins, but if tied out of the way shouldn't cause a problem. My best guess is that you fan is jamming possibly in the fan shroud, if its not, then at least with the fan shroud removed you can properly see what its jamming on and fix the problem. EDIT: If the fan is not visibly jamming on any of its sorroundings then that wouldm't that suggest that the viscous has died, or that the waterpump itself is jamming? Edited March 2, 2009 by QuickSilver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 No, he has a complete pre-facelift m20b25. The pre-facelift m20b25 use distributor mounted on the end of the camshaft also, but uses the older computer system motronic 1.1 and has the pre-faceift diagnostics plug. All the other PFL bits are there too, ie drivers side expansion thank, the waterpump with the extra fitting, the two gearbox sensors, etc etc From what I can see the motor is not a hybrid, although I've seen them too. Also, all the FANS are the same, (IE the plastic bit) I am unsure if there is a variation in the visous but I dont think so. The photos dont tell me much, but very often I've found that the shroud can be a huge source of problems, I know that the rad pipes in question can run very close to where the fan spins, but if tied out of the way shouldn't cause a problem. My best guess is that you fan is jamming possibly in the fan shroud, if its not, then at least with the fan shroud removed you can properly see what its jamming on and fix the problem. EDIT: If the fan is not visibly jamming on any of its sorroundings then that wouldm't that suggest that the viscous has died, or that the waterpump itself is jamming? Ok from what i can see the fan is jamming on the shroud. However the shroud is in place properly and it has been running fine up until today. Also the pipe is tied out of the way and yet it has at some point (i assume today) made its mark on the hose that goes around the distributer cap. I can only assume the waterpump is fine as it was replaced late last year with a brand new oem one, and has prob done less than <5000km. Also when freed the viscous spins as normal ...until the next time it jams... The engine mounts have also just been replaced - however would stuffed tranny mounts make any difference to movement in the engine? ie, then in turn cause the viscous to hit that rad pipe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickSilver 0 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 It's possible that if the tranny mounts are that far gone that maybe under hard pull the motor tips back far enough, which then makes the fan hit/jam or whatever, but I dont think this is very likely unless the cross member is loose, as even if the mounts are totally stuffed the transmission is still being supported by the cross member itself. Did you not say this problem was happening before you replaced the parts also? It might be that it was the shroud in the first place or a pre-existing problem, why not remove the shroud if only to get a better view of the area so you can see whats happening, then you dont have to guess at it because it will be as clear as day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) It's possible that if the tranny mounts are that far gone that maybe under hard pull the motor tips back far enough, which then makes the fan hit/jam or whatever, but I dont think this is very likely unless the cross member is loose, as even if the mounts are totally stuffed the transmission is still being supported by the cross member itself. Did you not say this problem was happening before you replaced the parts also? It might be that it was the shroud in the first place or a pre-existing problem, why not remove the shroud if only to get a better view of the area so you can see whats happening, then you dont have to guess at it because it will be as clear as day. Well this would explain my other prob, vibration through the steering wheel in 1st gear under hard acceleration. I think i'd better change my tranny mounts and check that the x-member is tight! I would love to remove the shroud, however the only way to do it is to remove the rad again!, as there is that little room to move down there. And whilst i did it last week, bleeding the coolant system didn't go according to plan haha. The other option is to cut it off, but that would just be a waste of a shroud! I am going to take the car up to vijay @ page european tomorrow and see what he thinks - the best option may be to just loose the viscous in favour of an electric unit! However whilst the is the 'easy way out' i would still love to know why it is happening! Oh and yes this problem was pre-existing, it all started from a track day at manfield! The fan was catching on the shroud that time - and i'm 99% sure thats whats happening this time, however why is it catching? And the shroud is obviousely there for a reason, can i run the car car without it permanantly? Edited March 2, 2009 by bmpower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bravo 35 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 That's interesting Alex. I've never seen a motronic 1.1 with the dizzy on the cam. Broken motor mounts went through my head, but I thought the problem was the fan jamming on the hose,not the shroud so decided it couldn't be that - but if it's jamming on the shroud then motor and box mounts should be checked. You should be able to get the shroud off without removing the rad - but you will have to remove the fan. Don't go electric. That's a bandaid solution, not a cure, and I'd prefer a working viscous anyday over elcetric, at least on e30's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 That's interesting Alex. I've never seen a motronic 1.1 with the dizzy on the cam. Broken motor mounts went through my head, but I thought the problem was the fan jamming on the hose,not the shroud so decided it couldn't be that - but if it's jamming on the shroud then motor and box mounts should be checked. You should be able to get the shroud off without removing the rad - but you will have to remove the fan. Don't go electric. That's a bandaid solution, not a cure, and I'd prefer a working viscous anyday over elcetric, at least on e30's. It shouldn't be engine mounts as there are 2 brand new oem ones in there, installed less than a month ago! I will get new tranny mounts tomorrow and see if this cures anything. The fan isn't 'jamming' on the hose however at some point it is having contact with it, whether this is happening when it jams on the shroud or under acceleration i don't know. Last time i tried to get the fan out with the rad in i couldn't - there isn't enough room, it hits the rad before it is unwound completely! Which is why i took the rad out last time. On the subject of viscous vs electric i have had everyone tell me different storys. 1/2 prefer elec and the other 1/2 prefer viscous. What reasoning is there for one or the other? The car is mainly a road car but will be taken on the track at any and every oppurtunity. It does get driven pretty hard. All i know is that it would solve this problem. Also the viscous uses engine power, yes i know not alot, and prob not noticable but it is still a reason. An electric should also be more effecient i would assume? Anyone for pro's and con's on this subject or someone that has tried both? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bravo 35 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 An electric fan works at idle, when a viscous on isn't doing alot. An electric fan can be set to turn off when it isn't needed. At speed you don't really need a fan in an e30 as the 100km/h wind is enough, but at rest or slow speed you do, so this sounds like electric is the way to go. But if the electric one stops, how do you know? Unless you wire up a warning light, in which case, fine. If the fan stops it's either hit something (usually would make a noise), or the clutch has stopped working (usually gradual and you can check it now and again), or the belt has broken - hello alternator light on the dash! Also viscous usually pulls more air, and is immune from electrical problems caused by moisture. With the electric fans being so reliable these days its less of an issue, but I trust the viscous one more. You can always make it fixed if you don't trust the clutch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickSilver 0 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) Graham - I'm 99.9% sure that all m20b25's use the cam mounted dizzys, as they all use motronic, and all motronic setup, be it 1.1 or 1.3 uses that setup. Plus I have a few mates with PFL 325's that I've done work on, and they are all the same. Only the ljet use the block mounted dizzys ( I dont know if others like kjet setups etc etc do, as I am referring to only m20 motors). - sorry if I was abrupt with my reply before was in a rush. Hows the project coming ? I'd be keen to hear some... as I wanna travel the SC route with my 2.7 as well... or is it under wraps until the big reveal Bmpower - Personally I agree with Graham, the viscous fan is a better option, and I wouldn't go near an electric fan, too much can go wrong to easily with electrics. If you're concerned simply about operating temp, I would invest my money in a better radiator. In regards to the shroud, nothing in particular needs to go badly wrong for it to start causing problems, they move, the clips break, their big and clumsy in a reasonably tight space, hell, I've heard that simply by being there they can obstruct the airflow so much that it can affect the temperature of the entire motor! Although I'm pretty sure thats extreme. Although your engine mounts are new, dont put blind faith in them, I would check them again just to make sure, after all it could happen by pure chance you get a defective part, Edited March 2, 2009 by QuickSilver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) Right i've just ordered new gearbox mounts from Jeff Gray BMW, which i'll have on thursday, then i'll install them and see how i go! I'll also gonna go and see Vijay @ Page European today and see what his thought are on the subject! Is it an option to run without the shroud at all? It is obviousely there for a reason i know, but will it really do that much harm to lose it completely? Engine mounts look ok, and are tight. Will check x-member is tight today also. Edited March 2, 2009 by bmpower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickSilver 0 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) I've never had a fan shroud, I took it out after it broke, then the clips brok, then the fan caught on it, then it half fell off, so finally I decided I could do better without it. I have not had any problems since, I do however have a sump guard which protects my fan and rad etc from getting hit by flying debris of the road, therefore for me it wasnt too bad to get rid of the shroud. Edited March 2, 2009 by QuickSilver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jamez 2147483647 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 yeah i got rid of the shroud aswell (m20b20) didn't make any difference for me, also took the electric fan out, never gets to half way on the temp gauge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 Well after talking to vijay, and him having a quick look he can't see why its happening either and he said the same thing - get rid of the shroud, and hopefully that solves the problem! So it looks like thats what i'll have to do - however that still doesn't solve the problem of why the fan is hitting the rad pipe! The only thing that we can come up with is that the pipe is expanding that much when hot thats its then coming into contact with the fan? Even though it is tied as far back as possible! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickSilver 0 Report post Posted March 2, 2009 Could be that the rad pipe at some stage has been difficult to remove from a fitting and the previous owner has simply cut it shorter as there is a bit of slack, this may explain why it doesnt simply sit out of the way like its supposed to, maybe if you have a spare one fit that and see, or pick yourself up a new one, it should easily clear the fan once tied back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bravo 35 Report post Posted March 3, 2009 You'd know (about the 325i and motronic dizzy) Alex since you've been down the conversion route. I thought I knew what I meant, but obviously I didn't as what you say makes total sense. The shroud is supposed to improve airflow and some motors don't cool at all well without them, but I've seen plenty of e30's without them. PM'd about your other question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmpower 3 Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Could be that the rad pipe at some stage has been difficult to remove from a fitting and the previous owner has simply cut it shorter as there is a bit of slack, this may explain why it doesnt simply sit out of the way like its supposed to, maybe if you have a spare one fit that and see, or pick yourself up a new one, it should easily clear the fan once tied back. The pipe on the car is one i have just replaced a week ago with a new oem one! And i've tied it back as much as possible. On a more interesting note, when i pulled up at home tonight i got out the car had dinner and then got back into the car reversed back and there was a big pool of coolant!! So i proceeded to find where that was coming from and couldn't! And running the engine didn't help so i took it for a quick 2min thrash, and when i got home no more coolant has leaked, however the viscous fan had jammed again! so i had a good look and 1 blade of the fan had jammed on the bottom of the rad! So this now bring me to the question that if i remove the shroud will it make any difference anyway?! Also shows that it only jammed under 'spirited driving conditions' ie hard acceleration/cornering. I really am at a complete loss now as to my next move. I'm up in aucks tomorrow. So i think this weekend after work i'll be pulling the rad out, removing the shroud and putting in new tranny mounts and then see if i can make it jam again! I love e30's but i also f**ken hate them at times! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bravo 35 Report post Posted March 3, 2009 If the fan is hitting the rad, either it's too far forward, or the radiator is too far back. Make sure the rad is seated in its mounts (at the bottom) properly, and make usre the motor is sitting square on the engine mounts. The pool of coolant could be because your motor was overheating and it came out the expansion tank overflow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DRTDVL 0 Report post Posted March 3, 2009 Just a random thought - does the fan have any play in it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
