E36 sedan wheel arch rubbing

[JohnM575 112]

Hi all,

So I have had the E36 lowered on B&G springs which offer a 50mm drop at the front and a 20mm drop in the rear. Mag & Turbo did the installation but I have had to take the car back there 3 times now to try remedy the problem with no luck! The car is booked in again for next week to try sort it. I emphasised before purchase that I did not ANY issues with rubbing as I am after function rather than form. In response they effectively "guaranteed" there would be no rubbing of any sort with this kit (even fully loaded).

Rubbing is occuring at the rear on the inner arch, and also did a bit on the bumper, where they have trimed back some plastic. The front right also rubs at full lock, very minor but guess VTNZ will still pull you up for it...? Left front doesn't seem to be showing any rubbing whatsoever. Having looked under the each of the rear arches, it seems to appear that the guards are free of rubbing, and sidewall of the tyre does not show any signs of rubbing either. This is all happening without a loaded car on country roads. Once I have 1 or 2 mates in the car, it will do it in 40-50km/h zones on suburb/city streets over the slightest of bumps.

Now, for those who have lowered e36's with either same or similar kits, have you experienced any problem with 225/50/16's ET37? What would you recommend Mag & Turbo/myself doing to sort this problem?

[thorburn 121]

For the rub on the front you will need to centre the steering rack. A good wheel alignment should sort that out. You can also get steering limiters

Has mag and turbo done a wheel alignment?

I'd get them to do everything or return their product and go about doing it yourself with a different set of springs

[Ben 0]

Sounds like you have toe in front and rear

You shouldnt have any problems with that wheel/tire/spring combo

I had 19x9.5 et40 245/40 and 50mm drop on the rear at one stage and that had minimal rubbing

even when I had 275/30s on it wasnt that bad

As james said just sounds like you need a wheel alignment to fix toe in

[JohnM575 112]

For the rub on the front you will need to centre the steering rack. A good wheel alignment should sort that out. You can also get steering limiters

Has mag and turbo done a wheel alignment?

I'd get them to do everything or return their product and go about doing it yourself with a different set of springs

Yes Mag & Turbo have did a wheel alignment on the day of install. Next tueday they are doing the 2nd wheel alignment as the springs have had time to "settle" in the past few weeks of driving.

Attached are a few pictures to help out, including the wheel alignment printout.

Anyone able to deduce much from the camber & toe readings? Would mag & turbo be able to make the rears stand up a little more when they re-do the alignment? Would that help the inside arch rubbing?

[JohnM575 112]

What can one deduce from the wheel alignment settings ?- way too much rear camber and not enough toe in on the rear.

The reality of going for fashion over function. Like many others I run bigger tyres on bigger wheels and have no problems with rubbing on my lowered E36.

No points for tyre choice either-- yuk!

What wheel fitment do you have on your e36? Running coilovers?

Tyre's weren't my choice. Yes they are sh*t, I won't hide from that fact at all. I just purchased the car last month off my sister, hence why they haven't been changed. She only used the car for round town city/suburb drivng and for that she couldn't justify putting top of the line rubber on it. Each to their own.

I have also stated I was after function, not form. I want to be able to do big k's with this car, and improve it's handling a little better from stock. Hence, given my budget (univeristy student) I opted for the best progressive rate spring kit avaliable as a compromise from getting a full Bilstein or KW coilover kit. I think I have done a little better than getting Jamex rubbish or superlow king springs, where I'd be ripping off the sump on every little bump.

I am NOT after a "hellaflush, stanced-out and slammed whip". My primary reason for the spring kit was to remove the wallowy/sofa-like handling, by which the springs have provided a noticeable improvement. The guys at Mag & Turbo are baffled somewhat that we haven't got to the bottom of the rubbing issue yet. Their f**k up, not mine. They are doing all the follow up work free of charge.

Have you got any ball park figures from your toe/camber readings on your E36? Could pass it on to them on tuesday to see what adjustments they can do to try get on top of this once and for all...

Edited April 2, 2012 by JohnM575

[thorburn 121]

all the info you need is written on the alignment sheet.

[JohnM575 112]

all the info you need is written on the alignment sheet.

Are you referring to a sheet Mag & Turbo are working off, or this printout? It sounds as if the current toe and camber readings could do with a bit of tweaking which may help the rubbing.

[JohnM575 112]

A standard E36 set up in good condition handles well and does not wallow so your apparent first assumption that you have to lower to make it handle is probably your first mistake.

Wallowy ride probably was not the spings unless it had some dodgy , baggy or incorrect springs fitted.

I still run the OE (M-sport) springs in the rear of mine and slightly lowered in the front.

(Car is a 328 with 172 kW on 225/45 17 fronts and 245/40/17 rears on M3 rims)

I ride and race ATV's, and over the years I have picked up a thing or two about suspension. Setting up compression, rebound, preload, spring rates etc . Having had a triple-rate Ohlins setup on my bike, it offers a progressive rate of travel (3 springs in 1 shock with different spring rates) which is a damn site better than a linear setup with one spring (rubbish oem suspension bikes are sold from the showroom floor with). A linear rate setup fails to find a happy medium between soaking up the small bumps while offering ample resistance from the larger forces. Same concept goes for a car.

Your second is to continue with the assumption that Mag & Turbo can / will sort it out.

If you want function then:

Set the ride height the same as an M sport or M3 E36 and forget the silly amount of drop in the front and rear and most of your problems will be solved and you should get the handling you want.

I didn't think 20mm at the rear was silly which is where the issue is occuring due to the excessive camber. As a short term fix, would you recommend putting the stock springs back in the rear? Mag & Turbo said the adjustment is now maxed out and cannot dial anymore negative camber out of it...So guess camber arm kit is really the only way of solving that issue.

Rear camber should be -2 max 1.5 is better but the excessive camber you have is due to it being too low.

Toe should be about 3 as indicated on the data sheet not 1.3 as it shows and the left and right toe need to be equal not 0.4 and 0.9 - this means you have more than twice the toe on the right compared to the left.

Get the basics right and then start building from there --

It would also help if you identify exactly what M&T have put in by brand and what model your E36 is.

It is a 1994 BMW 325i, and here is the labelling on the box that the springs came in.

Edited April 2, 2012 by JohnM575

[JohnM575 112]

I run Ohlins on my bike as well and yes they are on a different planet from stock bike shocks BUT they need the right spring to work as well.

Shock dont give spring rates, spring rates do, your Ohlins has three damping controls not 3 spring controls and unless you have changed springs they are usually linear springs not progressive.

Sorry, what I meant was that the 3 springs (Yes, linear rate) combine to provide a progessive rate in combination with the shock.

To correct the lowering induced excessive camber the only option is adjustable lower arms

Any brand recommendations? I did a quick TM search: D2, Hardrace and SHA have camber arms for E36/E46's. Unfamiliar with all of these brands so unsure if there is a big difference with quality/durability between the brands.

you said you were a poor student

Being a student just means I have to be thrifty

Bunging the OE springs back in will prove whether it is the new springs or the shocks doing the work , I am assuming you have changed shocks?

Nop, stock shocks. I know I am in effect cutting a corner by not doing the full shock and spring combo at once and that will be addressed in due course. But for the mean time...

Edited April 2, 2012 by JohnM575

[thorburn 121]

All the adjustable lower arms are about the same. Whichever one has the best heim joints will be the best.

I've got some blue thailand ones that are nice to adjust(crappy rod ends). I still need to get some more k's on them to know how they last

[JohnM575 112]

So back to the original problem:

The car handles like crap - its a baggy old 325 with tired old original shocks with 450,000 km on them and sh*t tyres;; WHAT do we need to do?

What made you assume the car has done 450k?

It's done 139k, and has the majority of its service history (including manual conversion) at Team McMillan. The car has been in the family for over 13 years with all lady owners/drivers prior to myself. Suppose I could have always bought a Subaru that had gone to the moon and back with a big bore and chromes for 1/3 of the price and put a full Bilstein setup in that... Pretty sure I made the right choice.

Answer : Replace the worn out baggy shocks and put some half way decent tyres on it - then go through the suspension rubbers, and.

Can neither confirm or deny whether the shocks are shot or not. I assume they are original though. I have had the car fully loaded (5 people) since putting the new springs in on country roads and haven't bottomed out the shocks yet, so they must have a little life left in them. Of course it rubbed, but I am now confident this will be solved by installing the rear camber arms.

When all of that is done and if we are still not happy bung in some higher rate springs and uprate the sway bars to match. (then you will need to uprate shock rebound to match new spring rate)

If I feel the want/need to invest pretty seriously in the suspension in an old car, I will do it properly. But for the mean time, the spring change is a temporary "upgrade".I have no ambitions of trying to make this a track day car here. It's not built for it (no LSD, low hp, brakes would be fried after 1-2 laps etc). Where as, an M3 would be great for that sort of thing. I think most would struggle to argue that the handling has been negatively affected by putting in the new springs once the rear camber issue is sorted. I guess the best way to put it, is that I wanted a nice touring ride, rather than a race-inspired rock hard ride.

As for the comment about the Ohlins a Tui Beer ad springs to mind - springs are springs and shocks are not::

Enlighten me?

Edited April 2, 2012 by JohnM575

[zl2cq 1]

Deary me ......... shades of my own hassles 53,000k ago !

Similar prob. here with my E36 Compact, thought I did the right thing by believeing in the "shock" people, the "spring" people, and the "mechanics that know".

WRONG ! ... but its sorted now because I talked to reputable BMW people (not dealers).

I have the best handling, most economically running car that had parts replaced progressively until we got it to where I wanted it.

Sport Bilstein front and Rear, King Spring Sport pack, Mspec sway bars, complete suspension bush change, Toyo tyres, Wheel Align as per Mspec settings.

Contact me direct if you wish please,

and good luck,

Paul - E36

I think most would struggle to argue that the handling has been negatively affected by putting in the new springs once the rear camber issue is sorted. I guess the best way to put it, is that I wanted a nice touring ride, rather than a race-inspired rock hard ride.

Enlighten me?

[JohnM575 112]

Deary me ......... shades of my own hassles 53,000k ago !

Similar prob. here with my E36 Compact, thought I did the right thing by believeing in the "shock" people, the "spring" people, and the "mechanics that know".

WRONG ! ... but its sorted now because I talked to reputable BMW people (not dealers).

I have the best handling, most economically running car that had parts replaced progressively until we got it to where I wanted it.

Sport Bilstein front and Rear, King Spring Sport pack, Mspec sway bars, complete suspension bush change, Toyo tyres, Wheel Align as per Mspec settings.

Contact me direct if you wish please,

and good luck,

Paul - E36

Cheers Paul. I do plan on doing the likes of sway bars, new shocks or full coilover setup, new wheel/tyre combo progressively. I am going to go with new camber arms on tuesday to restore the camber levels to oem specs (around -1.5-2.0deg) as it is the excessive camber which is most likely causing the inner arch rubbing, rather than the shocks being completely shot. Will also get them to address the toe in issue. Then hopefully I will be able to report back next week with some good news!