E34 530i, handling concerns

[kiwi328i 118]

Hi I have a 1993 530i manual.

I have had the following suspension done by myself and me bro.

Front:

Lowered front on king springs. New strut mounts, New billies HD, 540i calipers and rotors. New steering rack middle and ends. New upper and lower spherical bushes.

Rear:

Lowered on Jamex springs. New reaqr strut mounts, new billies HD, 20mm rear sway, poly rear mounts...umm big ones at the back pain in the rear to get out.

Anyway, recently my car has been weird. It likes to follow small imperfections, tramlining I guess. It likes to steer to the left, even though it had a wheel alignment in March. It could be out but it's still weird. I corrected the tyre pressures so it's not that. It's still weird. I also re bushed? the front calipers because the car would lock up on one side at slow speeds? It has only done it once since and you can tell it still has a tendency to do this, just not so often, you can feel it through the pedal.

Anyway, My car drives like the steering wants to 'lean over'? like it doesn't want to stay straight ahead? If I brake it gets worse, if I let the car 'free-wheel'forward the steering wheel will slowly veer to the left, then if I slightly hit the brakes, it will really get it moving to the left.

I thought of 4 options.

1. get the wheel alignment done first and get them to check that everything under there is as it should be, especially the tightness of the nuts and bolts

2. take it to a mechanic, get him to give it a decent drive and then sort it all out

3. do option 1 followed by option 2 in quick succession.

4. Listen to you guys which may be one of the options above

I wish the steering had a bit more feel, especially in terms of self centering? Any ideas? I am a bit stuck, and my car feels like all three systems (brakes, steering, suspension) are somehow working together in creating this weirdness.

oh, my tires and wheels are fine 18's 235/40 and 255/35. Seem to have evenish wear to me.

Cheers

[Phil-540i 166]

Sounds like a wheel alignment issue to me....................maybe compounded now a bit by the tyres having settled into a proper 'wear-pattern'..............

Were the tyres put on same time as springs / last wheel alignment done, by chance?? Rim offsets are close to spec..........???

I find the trouble with wheel alignments, is theres lots of people out there that think they can do them properly, whereas the guys who really do know what they're doing are starting to get hard to find.........

[Eagle 1662]

March was along time ago so a proper wheel alignment would be the obvious first choice. I agree with the above up wheel alignments but since you can only adjust front toe in on E34's i just tell them what to set it to(2-3mm total toe in is what i use)

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2132]

yup, your alignment has been affected anyway when you changed things around.

when you take it for an alignment, with the E34s you are supposed to put weights on particular seats etc, just google that. I don't know if the alignment stations do that or not, but worth doing yourself so you know its there. The E34s have quite fussy suspension in the front. same as E32

[Phil-540i 166]

March was along time ago so a proper wheel alignment would be the obvious first choice. I agree with the above up wheel alignments but since you can only adjust front toe in on E34's i just tell them what to set it to(2-3mm total toe in is what i use)

If it's not adjustable, castor / camber still needs checked though for being within factory specs. Dropping off the factory ride height might see other suspension alterations still needing to be made in order to properly compensate for the drop.......

[Eagle 1662]

If it's not adjustable, castor / camber still needs checked though for being within factory specs. Dropping off the factory ride height might see other suspension alterations still needing to be made in order to properly compensate for the drop.......

Yep no doubt but i was more referring to adjustment side of things, alot of places i found put way to much front toe in(like 5-6mm total) which feels like crap.

[kiwi328i 118]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I did all the suspension work BEFORE I took it to is it Dave? from Centreline, and he did work the car like a pro. The front toe was adjusted to 0.16 left and 0.15 right, total of 0.31. Everything else looks within spec. Should I get more total toe? Should I considering the lowered height? It's only 30mm front drop and 20ish rear, nice and level, to me anyway.

What about putting on bump steer correction plates?

I will take it back there, cause I think he really knows what he is doing. I will take advice from him all day.

Then I will take it to a mechanic, because I think the steering could be tightened up. Who apart from Glen, (I live out in Western heights) would you guys recommend?

Cheers

[Phil-540i 166]

Do you have a female driving it unsupervised??

[Eagle 1662]

Im running bump steer plates in mine and they do help but like is said above recheck the alignment before doing anything else.

[kiwi535 538]

you sure the brakes arent dragging slightly on the left??

[kiwi328i 118]

Actually, without coming off as sounding like a complete prick. My partner does drive the beast on the odd occasion without supervision, and it was my first minor alarm bell to go off. I guessed she may have hit something harder than normal and thought nothing more or something like that. Alignment goes out slowly, or bushes and the like slowly collapse, so that was my first guess.

Having said that, it could be other things, but that's just how I may have got in the pickle, I still need a way out.

I have just replaced the seals on the calipers and cleaned everything up, so I could have a brake problem, but I think I will let a 'real mechanic' have a gander once I have done the wheel alignment.

These bump steer correction plates, sounds good in theory, but then your bump steer geometry would have had to have been in an optimum range of operation to begin with. Lowering your vehicle would have taken you out of this optimum range and you would then be merely correcting it. On the other hand, lowering your vehicle and altering the way your vehicle steers may be to your liking?

Go to the AKG motorsport website and find them there (I don't know why I cant copy and paste stuff?)

[kiwi535 538]

my e34 got vauge and tramliney when the tyres were worn.Could be contributing factor

[kiwi328i 118]

So I got an alignment done this morning from Tyreworx.

Initial was:

Total toe: +2.80

Left; +2.90 Right; -0.10

After adjustment:

Total toe: +0.10

Left; +0.10 Right; 0.00

So I guess the toe was well out. They also snapped a subframe bolt whilst making some adjustments, so I have to sort that out too. He was told by his boss that these work better with no toe at all.mmm dunno.

Problem is, whilst it does steer slightly better, when you are doing say 40km/hr and you take your hand off the steering wheel and the road is true and straight, it will slightly veer to the left, then when you gently push the brakes it will veer harder to the left. So that part is still there!!!!!

I want to take it to someone who can think outside the square a bit? Google indicates to me it could be anything from tie rack ends, worn worms in the powersteering unit?,inefficient brake hoses, you name it, it's in there. I think I am going to call a mechanic.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[Phil-540i 166]

You sure its not road camber doing it?? Most vehicles will roll off to the left at factory spec settings - that way when a retarded muppet falls asleep @ the wheel, they hook left into the shrubbery, rather than crossing the centre-line & collecting you / me etc........you've also got to factor in that your tyres will currently have a wear pattern on them, which won't help much. Because you're running the set-up you are, you can't just rotate the tyres front to back as per what would usually be done..........

My partner does drive the beast on the odd occasion without supervision, and it was my first minor alarm bell to go off. I guessed she may have hit something harder than normal

I'll leave you to ponder the cure for that............... Might be easier just to factor in an alignment every 6 months tho

[Eagle 1662]

+1 to what Ron said, they sound like they have no idea what they are doing

Did you even get an alignment printout? and how the hell did they break a subframe bolt?, no reason why you would need to touch the subframe

[Phil-540i 166]

Not a very good alignment based on just the two final figures above, Toe needs to be the SAME for both wheels on each axle ( what about the rear??)

Toe is JUST one adjustment. and one setting of the geometry ,

Camber, Caster and ride height also need to be checked , If you have these figures post them and I will comment (constructively)

Tyre wear i.e. left tyre slightly more worn or tyre pressures, different by 10kPa will give the same symptoms as you describe.

It's not thinking out side the square it's just doing the whole job properly, before you go off chasing other possible causes get a proper wheel alignment. Suggest you try Peter Alder at Andrew Simms Mitsubishi in New market he is ex Marshall tyres and Continental cars he knows his stuff - been doing my cars for more than 20 years.

Agree.................much as I said in a earlier post re camber, castor etc in relation to its current ride height vs factory specs......& ditto re tyres - we both posted that at the same time.......

I'm a bit like Ron - theres a guy I use that really knows his stuff, he hasn't got the latest gear, but he does a primo job - unlike some other places that have the latest greatest gear, but a retarded gimp operating it............

Roads I get around on have camber - its there so the rain runs off, thus not turning the road into a tarseal lined duck-pond......

Edited December 7, 2013 by Blue-540i

[kiwi328i 118]

I wish I could scan the thing anywho it goes like this:

Total toe: +0.10

Left; +0.10 Right; +0.00

Set-back: +0.10

Camber: -0.65 -0.60

Caster: +6.65 +6.80

King-pin: +12.60 +12.55

Incl angle: +11.95 11.95

Rear axle:

Total toe; +2.90

left; +0.40 Right; +2.50

Camber: -1.75 -2.00

Thrust angle; -0.15

He said he cant do the rear. I always thought you could do toe?

I have to sort the subframe mount bolt he sheared then go back anyway, so what should I be looking for?

I had a look at my tyres, tyre pressures, rotors and pads tonight and cant find anything untowards. It feels like the powersteering unit is ''falling over' like its looking to centre itself, but finding it well to the left? Still drives the same, let the wheel go at low speed and it will wander to the left, dab the brakes and it's like the steering box wants to turn you in the nearest driveway, it doesn't do this to the right, just the left.

Cheers

[Phil-540i 166]

I'm not convinced that's right, but Ron will have a far better idea on it than me. The brake bit sounds weird in its own right - its bit like its got a dragging caliper / piston not returning properly in LHF, or needs bled in RHF. At a low speed, 15kph say, what happens if you hit the picks on a loose surface?? Is it consistently locking the LHF tyre before RHS?? You'll see it in the marks........

If you jack it up, both front wheels are turning freely...........no drag from LHF brake.???

[kiwi535 538]

you will almost always get a veering to the left because the raoad almost always has a camber to the left for drainage.

Oops sorry Phil.

I agree i think you have to figure out why its pulling to the left when braking

Edited December 7, 2013 by kiwi535

[Allanw 1071]

Try driving on the right (some where safe) and see if the same thing happens with the camber the other way.

I'm not familiar with E34 front suspension at all - are there any bushes not replaced, or that were replaced, but with cheapo parts?

[kiwi328i 118]

Whether you are on the right or the left, motorway or B-road, it wanders slightly to the left, you need a little bit of pressure on the right hand side of the steering wheel so that it doesn't ultimately leave the road in much the same way a 10-15psi flatter tyre would react. It's not what you would expect with the set-up I have and have it this way before AND after a wheel alignment.

For a cheap fix, I might swap the brake calliper lines over to see if that changes anything? The only thing I can think of is that if the steering wheel is not dead straight with the wheels when the alignment is done would you get this wandering to the left or right?

Cheers

[kiwi328i 118]

Ok,

Another conclusion. After having the car up at Burger's for 2 weeks or so, it seemed that there was nothing wrong with the car, not mechanically anyway. It was still wandering ever soo slightly however. Burger took the car to his alignment guy and as per usual, everything was up to spec, and as usual it still had this natural tendency to wander to the left. Burger noticed whilst under the car the markings on the column and the markings on the powersteering pump where not aligned. I haven't heard of this before myself but as he explained it to me at length, and even showed me on another car, these notched have to be in line before you can do a 'proper'alignment. If your steering wheel is out, i.e not straight ahead you WILL have problems, obviously someone has had this steering wheel off, and put it back on a spline or three out. Anyway, he aligned the 2 markings, pulled my steering wheel off and centred it, and had the alignment guys do there things as per norm.

So there you go. So I learnt a few things.

Burger is the man, which is backed up by the ridiculous amount of cars he has in and around the building, and the amount of merits he has on the wall.

Come payment time, I thought I was going to have to down trousers and hold my ankles, but I was extremely surprised at the bill, he is obviously crap at maths?

I probably wont go back to tyreworx, however Burger did say that now that the steeringwheel is straight anyone can do it, meh I guess.

So I got a spare secondhand powersteering pump I will knock up on tardme soon, but it could have been a lot lot worse.

The car handles, like it should now, meaty.

[Phil-540i 166]

Primo outcome for ya............

Kudos for giving credit where done too.........

[kiwi328i 118]

Hi Ron,

"The rear toe is not good and getting this adjusted will make a further improvement to the steering of your car"

I agree, I am looking at options now in regards to adjusting the rear toe and I am reading all of the kmac vs bavauto/AKG etc arguments, basically 'to weld' or 'not to weld', both crappy options, but it seems like I will have to go with one of them in order to correct that rear toe.

So both options expensive and one expensive and time consuming...yay

Someone here must of gone through this with their E34?

[Eagle 1662]

Ive done weld in plates\bolts on an E30 which is basically the same as an E34. The plates\bolts and welding cost was only a few hundred iirc but i replaced the subframe and trailing arms bushes also. I did all the labour myself bar the welding.

I was doing subframe bushings so i figured id do while i was there, otherwise i probably won't have bothered. Sure it could be better but i dont think your rear toe is worth the cost\effort to fix.