m50 manifold swap, what dont i need

[Mr Vapour 76]

Hello gents 

I have myself a m52 and a m50 manifold. So I'm wanting to put it the two together and profit. 

So I have been looking in to the swap and the connections that needs be made. 

I'm a noob with the amount of extras bolted to the side of this thing. A motor needs fuel, air and spark. I'm a bit old school in that respect.

It's going in a e21 so many things are simply not there to reconnect and effect the ecu. 

So What don't I need?  

The vapor chamber that needs that big hose can I simply fit a pcv and or catch can 

Abs

Clutch control

What else can I flash out of my ecu and not need to reinstall.  

 

Thanks for the help gents 

[Mad_Max 233]

Having done the swap on my car, and about to do it on another, there's a couple of different ways of doing it without any fitting kits, while keeping the PCV and ICV. The way I did mine is a bit rough and really want to redo it just to tidy things up, it's simply a matter of making sure there's holes in the right spots for the connections and blocking off the ones you don't need.

The second one I'm doing will involve a little more work but will be far neater, if I remember I'll grab some pics for you as I do the swap and show you how I've completed it. It will take time and patience to do it right, but it's worth it in the end once it's back up and running. Others may have experience using one of the various kits found overseas so may be able to chime in on that.

ABS - I'm not sure if that's something that can be removed from the DME/ECU?

Clutch control? I'm assuming you're talking about the clutch delay valve? If so, I think this is as simple as removing a valve from the clutch line at the slave cylinder?

[Mr Vapour 76]

so in this photo, what are the two things in the yellow? 

It seems that all conversions that i have seen use a series of hoses to join these things together. 

What are they and are they needed, if they are removed will the OBDII still function? 

 

[Mad_Max 233]

The big black plastic thing is your PCV (crankcase vent), there's a plastic hose that runs from it to your cylinder head, and a small rubber hose that goes to the dipstick tube.

The silver metal thing is your ICV (idle control valve). 

The M52 manifold has connections for them both where they push fit into the back of it, whereas the M50 manifold only has space for the ICV. How they connect depends completely on which kit you buy and how you mount them. Looking at the photo above, I would almost suggest whoever made that has just drilled holes to fit both the PCV and ICV, then made up a bracket to mount them.

As far as I know, the PCV can be removed, however you will need to modify your setup to fit a filter or oil catch can - someone else may be able to chime in here and explain that better and what is needed. It shouldn't cause any problems with OBDII in theory.

The ICV shouldn't cause any issues with OBDII either, however you may not get the car to idle properly without it.

I'm back home tomorrow so should be able to get you some pics explaining the connections better, and show you how I plan on doing the next manifold swap.

[zero 1162]

I would recommend the oil catch can and pcv delete method.

 

You don't want all the dirty crap going back into your engine. Bmw only puts it there for emissions regulations.

[Mr Vapour 76]

22 hours ago, Max_Max said:

The big black plastic thing is your PCV (crankcase vent), there's a plastic hose that runs from it to your cylinder head, and a small rubber hose that goes to the dipstick tube.

The silver metal thing is your ICV (idle control valve). 

The M52 manifold has connections for them both where they push fit into the back of it, whereas the M50 manifold only has space for the ICV. How they connect depends completely on which kit you buy and how you mount them. Looking at the photo above, I would almost suggest whoever made that has just drilled holes to fit both the PCV and ICV, then made up a bracket to mount them.

As far as I know, the PCV can be removed, however you will need to modify your setup to fit a filter or oil catch can - someone else may be able to chime in here and explain that better and what is needed. It shouldn't cause any problems with OBDII in theory.

The ICV shouldn't cause any issues with OBDII either, however you may not get the car to idle properly without it.

I'm back home tomorrow so should be able to get you some pics explaining the connections better, and show you how I plan on doing the next manifold swap.

Thanks for the info. I look forward to more info. 

13 hours ago, zero said:

I would recommend the oil catch can and pcv delete method.

 

You don't want all the dirty crap going back into your engine. Bmw only puts it there for emissions regulations.

Yes I was planning on catch canning it. Is a pcv of any type needed. Some motors prefer crank pressure or vacuum, any one have any idea on what the preference is on a m52. Or are they happy to run with just a vent. 

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

crankcase must be into the intake either directly, via a PCV system, or via a catch can.

Have just gone through this, am using a PCV off an E39 M5, its the most compact of all the designs, and the stock M52 one is not easily able to be used.

Would like to know where people are finding 20mm or 25mm hose to use to plumb it up though. Tried HCD (hose specialist) as well as Supercheap, Repco and BNT and they all glazed over and had nothing suitable. HCD came close but wall thickness was far too high and not flexible enough. Super cheap and Repco couldn't even supply when i told them think of what you would use for a catch can....

[Mad_Max 233]

On 7/29/2016 at 7:53 AM, 1BMF said:

Thanks for the info. I look forward to more info. 

Yes I was planning on catch canning it. Is a pcv of any type needed. Some motors prefer crank pressure or vacuum, any one have any idea on what the preference is on a m52. Or are they happy to run with just a vent. 

Sorry have been a bit busy last couple of days. If you're going the PCV delete route, it's far easier, I'll try grab a pic of the M50 manifold tomorrow to explain what I mean. Either way, there are ways around it, talked to the guy I'm setting this manifold up for today and he's also doing the PCV delete so will make it a whole lot easier. But will try to explain a couple of different ways it can be done.

4 minutes ago, _ethrty-Andy_ said:

crankcase must be into the intake either directly, via a PCV system, or via a catch can.

Have just gone through this, am using a PCV off an E39 M5, its the most compact of all the designs, and the stock M52 one is not easily able to be used.

Would like to know where people are finding 20mm or 25mm hose to use to plumb it up though. Tried HCD (hose specialist) as well as Supercheap, Repco and BNT and they all glazed over and had nothing suitable. HCD came close but wall thickness was far too high and not flexible enough. Super cheap and Repco couldn't even supply when i told them think of what you would use for a catch can....

PCV can be vented to air instead of to the intake manifold, hence the idea of going to a separate catch can/PCV delete route. I'm assuming you're talking about the hose going into the PCV? If you locate the PCV in the right spot, no hose modifications are needed. If you move it however, think outside the square........

The hose from the cylinder head to the PCV is only carrying vapors (in theory), and shouldn't be a whole heap. I got away with mine with a butchered setup, had to extend the hose by 20mm (bad position for the PCV lol), ended up cutting it and slipping a piece of fish tank hose inside both sections..... quite a snug fit..... It works for now, about to do away with the PCV anyway so the whole setup will change.

Yes butchered I know, was in a spot and needed the car running, but hey it works and where the join is, no one can see it.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

about 1.5m of 20mm hose is really all i need to get it done properly now. tried using the BMW hoses cutting and shortening and some t pieces and things on advise of a friend and while i appreciate the help its just a total balls up that won't last 5 minutes on the track so I'm going to do it a different way. could go catch can route but rather have an internally plumbed system i never have to think about.

I also recall from 5 years ago that if an engine has emissions stuff its supposed to retain it when doing an engine conversion in a road car to pass cert, however no idea how factual that is, and if it is how hard they adhere to that. either way, a self sufficient system i don't have to think about can only be a good thing.

Edited July 30, 2016 by _ethrty-Andy_

[Mad_Max 233]

Yeah I hear you there, what I used has held up well so far (not track use but cops a fair thrashing), doesn't appear to be leaking anywhere or anything like that, it might last? Bit of sealant/glue on the tubing when putting it together might do the trick? If I remember I'll have a look and see if I've got any of the tubing left over, you're welcome to grab it and try it.

Yes in theory emissions stuff is supposed to be functioning 100% for a road car, how often that is actually checked is another thing....... especially when you see cars belching smoke everywhere and they pass warrants, yet they are worried about whether a piece of plastic works like new on some cars for the sake of minor air emissions........ sorry, I'm used to the Australian system, far more stringent checks on all cars, I don't understand this NZ WOF system at all, they miss so many major things and can be fooled so easily. But I digress, apologies to the TA  

[zero 1162]

12 hours ago, _ethrty-Andy_ said:

Would like to know where people are finding 20mm or 25mm hose to use to plumb it up though. Tried HCD (hose specialist) as well as Supercheap, Repco and BNT and they all glazed over and had nothing suitable. HCD came close but wall thickness was far too high and not flexible enough. Super cheap and Repco couldn't even supply when i told them think of what you would use for a catch can....

Repco and Supacheap don't carry any oil hose for some weird reason.

Have found both Enzed and Hydraulink to be excellent for oil hose, and reasonable prices.

[Mad_Max 233]

On 7/29/2016 at 7:53 AM, 1BMF said:

Thanks for the info. I look forward to more info. 

Yes I was planning on catch canning it. Is a pcv of any type needed. Some motors prefer crank pressure or vacuum, any one have any idea on what the preference is on a m52. Or are they happy to run with just a vent. 

Right, so I have got somewhat sorted and grabbed a couple of pics for you.

If you were planning on keeping the PCV and ICV, the first picture shows you what you are essentially trying to replicate to make it all connect to the M50 manifold. Big connection on the left is for the PCV, upright tube is where your intake air temp sensor plugs in, there's 3 vacuum plugs, then the last round hole on the right is for your ICV. Seeing as how you're going with a catch can instead, let's just ignore that.

The second, third and fourth photos are of the M50 manifold, yours might look slightly different.See that large round hole in the middle? Grind off those two plastic tabs on the sides, and that's the perfect size for your ICV to sit in. Note that, mounting it here, you'll need the rubber seal it goes into, and you will need to modify the hose that runs to the intake boot, shouldn't be a hard one.

Next, you'll have to run your vacuum lines, these can all be teed off the one vacuum port, so that's simple.You'll also need to find a way to plug your intake temp sensor in, as the ones for the M50 are different - I can't remember if they make the car think the air temp is always hot or cold, either way it messes with the DME and fuel maps. I simply left the M50 sensor in it's place and drilled another hole for my temp sensor, then siliconed it in place (it's underneath so can't be seen so I wasn't worried about how it looked).

One more thing you'll need is a plate for the throttle body. The main difference is, on the M50 manifold, the seal for the throttle body is recessed into the manifold, whereas on the M52 it's recessed into the throttle body itself. The plate is easily made, I used a piece of 0.70mm aluminium and drilled and cut it. I'm about to make a couple more up this week, so can whip one out for you if you'd like - it doesn't need to be anything fancy or expensive to work.

I have heard of people cutting the seals and then somehow joining them together, with conflicting stories about how long it lasts or how well it works.It was easy for me to make the plate so I just went that way to save any potential problems.

The M52 fuel rail will need to be modified, the bracket that holds the rear clip for the injector harness needs to be cut so it fits properly. And part of the front mount for the fuel rail cover needs ground down for the fuel rail to push down properly at the front. Once that's in place, a couple of small pieces of metal can hold that in place using the original bolt holes.

If you've got the M50 fuel rail cover, flip it over and you'll see the two posts, simply grind them down until you get the height you want. See http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2102134-M50-Fuel-Rail-Cover-Modification-(Short-DIY-w-Pictures) for some pics.

As for the second part of your post, I'm reading conflicting stories about whether a catch can works for these motors or not - some are saying they are running a catch can venting to air without a problem, others are saying it causes all sorts of problems. Others here might be able to chime in and let you know of their experiences?

Hope this helps!

Edited July 31, 2016 by Max_Max
Added last paragraph re catch can