Square setup 335i / 17 x 8 IS35 / 235/45-17 RS4

[jon dee 500]

I have a set of 17 x 8 offset 35 wheels on the way and am considering a set of 235/45-17 Hankook Ventus RS4 (Z232) tyres. The idea is to have a set of tyres that can be driven to a street sprint, used for the event and then driven home. I really would have preferred Ventus RS3 (Z222) for the tread pattern, but it seems that they are out of production now that the RS4 is on the market.

Looking around and using the various fitment calculators, it seems that this wheel/tyre size combo would fit and maintain near enough the same tire diameter. So looking for some advice

Q1. Who has used this wheel/tyre size combo on an E92 ? Any issues with clearance ?

Q2. Who has used the Hankook RS4 (in any size) and how did it perform ?

Q3. Who has used 235/45-17 tyres (any brand) for clubsport events (excluding circuit) ?

Q4. Am I on the wrong track here and should I be looking at a different tyre size with a shorter sidewall ?

Would mention that I am not committed to the RS4. It just looks to put a decent amount of rubber on the ground in solid blocks and is a directional rather than asymetrical design... and 200 wear rating.

Above is the Hankook, but based on price and availability the Zestino 07A below might be a better option. It is made in a couple of different wear ratings and seems to be easier to find than the Hankook. Zestino seems to be one of the new generation Chinese tyres and has been rated quite highly by some of the people who have posted test results on the web.

I'm not planning on winning any trophies, so I don't need $500 tyres. If I can put a set of four on the car for under $1000 and have some fun... them I'm good

Cheers... jondee

Edited June 29, 2019 by jon dee

[Herbmiester 924]

As a 335i owner I would ask why you want to give up rear tyre contact with a smaller tyre wen you already have a car that that is traction limited. I am exploring how i can go from 255 to 265 or even 275 width at the rear. However I am not sure how much you like going sideways or making tyre smoke.  

 

[jon dee 500]

Good point and one of the reasons I made this post I have read a lot of internet posts on BMW related forums about tire sizes, wheels and offsets , but I have zero experience with the E92 myself. So this starts with me deciding that I like a certain style of wheel, and seeing a set on TradeMe that caught my eye. That's the set in my avatar and they errive this week.They happen to be 17 x 8 - 35 which I believe to be near ideal for a square setup on an E92. They are fitted with some rubbish tyres but will do for checking clearances.

I am also lead to believe from my reading that a square setup tends to reduce power on underdteer when compared with a staggered setup ? And going to 17" wheels allows the use of less expensive taller profile tyres with the ability to swap wheels front to rear to even out wear. No doubt there is a tradeoff between profile, ride quality and ultimate grip, but as these wheels are only intended for having fun at clubsport events, I consider this to be an experiment.

Hopefully, using a softish high performance tyre will generate a bit more grip to counteract the slight reduction in tread width. I love the way the factory wheels look on the car and have no intention of trimming the liners or rolling the guards, So while it would be nice to have the luxury of trying a bunch of wheel/tyre combinations to check clearances, at this stage I'm just wanting to make sure there is no big downside to the square setup.

Cheers... jondee

[Herbmiester 924]

Seriously I cant see how a 235 is anywhere near enough tyre for a 335i, sure stick with 17's but at least look for a 8.5 or 9 inch wide wheel so you can fit standard 255s or 265's back there. The money you will pay for a soft tyre that has grip will be more than a good 17 inch 255. BMW never ran a square setup on any of the high HP e90's and this was for good reason it will turn into a pig. If you leave the electronics on all that will happen is your dash will light up and you will go nowhere, if you turn the stability control off you will go sideways or become a one tyre fryer. if you give it a tune and lets be honest the 335i is just so easy to get extra HP and torque from, it gets even worse. Leave your current setup on and buy and LSD, then you will see why the e90M3 handles so well. 

 

[Herbmiester 924]

Seriously there is a proven way to make any E90/E92 handle like a an M3. Fit an LSD and program out the E Diff settings then fit M3 front (rears if you have the money) control arms. You can fit stiffer springs but if you already Have M-sport springs you will be pretty good as the rears especially are already quite stiff. Do this, fit decent tyres and all you will have to worry about on track days are overwhelming stock brake pads (easy fix) and an extra oil cooler to stop it going into limp mode when it gets too hot.  However if all you want is pretty wheels and a reason to justify small wheels then ignore this. 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Herbmiester

[jon dee 500]

1 hour ago, jon dee said:

 I consider this to be an experiment.

I can see your viewpoint, and if I was looking to make a track day monster I would very likely use the widest wheels and tyres that would fit on the car. To do that I would need to do a lot of trial fitting and guard rolling etc. I don't have that facility. Neither am I interested in tracking the car; only running a few local hillclimb or street spint evnts that typically are of less than 2 minutes duration. If the engine overpowers the tyres then backing off the throttle a little is a no cost solution

In a years time when I have had a chance to evaluate the car with both the OEM and my little wheels, I'll decide exactly what wheel/tyre combo I want on the car. If that means buying custom wheels and wider tyres, then so be it.

Cheers... jondee

[jon dee 500]

I do have a few mild power upgrades in mind... probably not more than a larger intercooler, alloy charge pipe, MHD stage 1+ tune and a little bit of e85 mixed in with the 98. So of course the effect of these mods will be factored into whatever wheel/tyre combo I settle on after the honeymoon is over

Cheers... jonde

[Herbmiester 924]

1 hour ago, jon dee said:

I do have a few mild power upgrades in mind... probably not more than a larger intercooler, alloy charge pipe, MHD stage 1+ tune and a little bit of e85 mixed in with the 98. So of course the effect of these mods will be factored into whatever wheel/tyre combo I settle on after the honeymoon is over

Cheers... jonde

So with that setup you will be close to 600nm of Torque, a damp road will see you lose traction at 100kph with a big stab at the loud pedal. It looks like you have convinced yourself to go for the small rear setup based on info that is not applicable to  e92/90 n54 cars. All the BMW advice I ever read about square setups is aimed at low to mid power cars not torque monsters. Good luck with that but I guarantee it will not deliver what it is you want. The stock E92 does under steer a wee bit but good tyres help immensely.  What really helps reduce under steer is the M3 front control arm setup as it gives you more camber and much stiffer bushes. Its not hugely expensive and install is straight forward.What you can do without any guard rolling is fit the M3 spec setup 235 265 tyres. I have had my 335i for over 3 years now and I have experimented with a few setups including a 245 front and 245 rear setup  off my old e46 and it made no noticeable difference apart from having less rear grip and more flashing dash lights. The inherent issues with E92/90 handling are huge amounts of torque from low down with no LSD and a front end geometry that is not quite aggressive enough. The E90/92 platform is actually a power over steer monster that is held in check by electronics. In 4 odd years of trolling through internet articles on getting the e92/90 to handle none have ever tried going smaller at the rear, it just defies logic. I have driven an E92 with a torsen LSD it had stock M sport suspension and very good tyres. All I can say is that is where my money is going next. 

 

[jon dee 500]

Yussss... all good points. And I might add that initially I was looking at a 135i Msport to hotrod a bit. But when that fell thru I found that a nice 335i could be had for less money and changed direction (at least for the moment). And I have read about the advantages of fitting M-series lower control arms and a mechanical LSD, and that would not be out of the question further down the track.

The question is though, is worth trying to turn an overweight luxury coupe into a great handling sports car, or would it be better to start with a slightly smaller. shorter and lighter car with great brakes (but the same engine) ? But that's a question for another day

Cheers... jondee

[jon dee 500]

Taking the points made above into consideration, if I was to start looking for wheels capable of putting more rubber on the ground, what sizes should I be searching for ? Looking at the car with the OEM 8 + 8.5 wide staggered setup, there really does not seem to much scope for wheels with more "poke" without trimming or rolling. So if the extra width has to go towards the strut, what space is available if leaving 5mm between the rim and the strut ?

Would 18 x 8.5 + 38 fit in front (2.3mm furyher out, 10.4mm further in) ?

Would 18 x 9.0 +42 fit in the rear (1.4mm further out, 11.4mm further in) ?

Possible to go wider (closer to strut on the inside) ? Maybe 9.5" wide in back ?

Cheers... jondee

 

[Herbmiester 924]

Well the 100kg saving between the two is probably the biggest advantage. The Brakes however are a bit of a toss up as the piston count is up but the rotor diameter is down. For the size of the car the e92 isn't really overweight just not lightweight.

 

[Herbmiester 924]

Why not stay with a standard setup and invest the cash in the best tyres you can afford? Then front arms and LSD. After all my research that's probably where I will end up. I do have a 9 inch wide rear so could fit a 265. 

[qube 3570]

i only skim read through the above posts but I think you are going in the wrong direction.

17x8 et35 is not okay for e92 335i 

my personal aim for fitment would be something along the lines of:

18x8.5 et30 with 235 40 18

18x9.5 et25 with 265 35 18

you could even go slightly more aggessive with the offsets but staying around these numbers would give you a nice easy fit without guardwork and inner tyre well clearance.

dont bother with size calculator that tells you X mm's more in more out nonsesnse because you will be comparing it to factory spec which is pretty bad baseline anyway and not a good indication of where you want to be.

 

 

[jon dee 500]

@ qube

Not sure I agree with all of that. Factory spec sets a baseline for where the outer rim sits with regard to the hub bolting face, and can easily be evaluated by walking around the car. In my opinion the factory wheels sit just about perfect, so I would want to maintain the outer rim very close to the factory placement. The clearance from the strut to the inner rim is a lot more difficult to assess unless the car is on a hoist. And that is where the extra width will be going... towards the strut. Knowing the distance from the factory rim to the strut (and the overall rim width) sets the maximum wheel space available, and that is what I am trying to figure out.

Sure, the tyre size will need to be taken into account, but I think that the calculator gives a good idea of what width/offset might fit, and that beats trying a dozen different wheels at random in the hope that one might fit just right. 

The 18" sizes you suggest look decent but I am guessing that the width/offset combo will only be available from aftermarket wheels ? Thanks for the input.

Cheers... jondee

 

[jon dee 500]

@ Herbmiester

Yes, given that it looks like getting the ideal wheel/tyre setup is going to involve a set of aftermarket wheels and some expensive tyres, I may well put that upgrade on the back burner for a while. I'll be on the phone to Jon tomorrow as the car is due for a WOF and that will be a perfect opportunity to get the front suspension checked out.

Cheers... jondee

[Herbmiester 924]

Here's what you want.  https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-control-arm-kit-5-piece-m-upgrade-bmwmcakit  

You dont need aftermarket wheels just good rubber on the stock rims plus the M3 front end. Understeer is reduced and you can then focus on getting the power to the ground, that's the BIGGEST challenge. 

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Herbmiester

[qube 3570]

11 hours ago, jon dee said:

@ qube

Not sure I agree with all of that. Factory spec sets a baseline for where the outer rim sits with regard to the hub bolting face, and can easily be evaluated by walking around the car. In my opinion the factory wheels sit just about perfect, so I would want to maintain the outer rim very close to the factory placement. The clearance from the strut to the inner rim is a lot more difficult to assess unless the car is on a hoist. And that is where the extra width will be going... towards the strut. Knowing the distance from the factory rim to the strut (and the overall rim width) sets the maximum wheel space available, and that is what I am trying to figure out.

Sure, the tyre size will need to be taken into account, but I think that the calculator gives a good idea of what width/offset might fit, and that beats trying a dozen different wheels at random in the hope that one might fit just right. 

The 18" sizes you suggest look decent but I am guessing that the width/offset combo will only be available from aftermarket wheels ? Thanks for the input.

Cheers... jondee

 

Sounds like you know what you are talking about and what you want. Its your car so you are obviously free to do as you wish.

If you think the factory wheels sit about perfect, then sure by all means go for the fitment you want.

my opinion is that its "better" to get a wider track by going for wider wheels/tyres by pushing it towards the guards  but not to the extent that it will rub/scrape and look like a 18 year old kid with rubber band tyres on made in china wheels.

if you want performance and to be able to put down more HP to your rear wheels (suggested by the mods and tunes you have in mind) then I would suggest to look at overseas forums where people have done the necessary wheel fitment mods to achieve this result.

I totally disagree with the extra width going towards the strut. you will find that it may rub if you go full lock if you go down this road.

Also, no one said you need to try a dozen different wheel sizes. Thats why you learn from what others (the masses) have done and tried, and benefit off their errors and successes.

 

[jon dee 500]

No argument there. The problem with reading overseas forums is that there is a lot of anecdotal information about what various people have tried/used, but very little in the way of hard measurements. Very often, when the owner is shooting for maximum width they will fit a certain wheel/tyre combination and then find that it rubs and they have to roll or pump the guards to make it work... or change the tyres/return the wheels or simply put up with it rubbing

And then there is the question of "pinching" the tyres by fitting tyres that are a lot wider than recommended for the rim width, or "stretching" tyres to stop them rubbing. If I go to the trouble of getting custom wheels, i'd like to be certain that they will fitt without rubbing when fitted with my choice of tyres. So yes, I am a bit pedantic, but I subscribe to the "do it once and do it right" motto

I have no problem with having a wheel that pokes out further towards the guard than the OEM fitment so long as it does not rub. With the car on the ground there does not appear to be much scope for going wider (with OEM tyre sizes) but I don't know the wheel trajectory under bump so maybe there could be 10 or 15mm of clearance ? I'd be happy if anyone could give me an actual confirmed measurement.

Cheers... jondee

 

[jon dee 500]

@ Herbmiester

Thanks for the link. I'll get those ordered. The car still has 12 months of mechanical warranty to run so I will need to check if there is any problem with fitting upgrades.

And yeah, to try and keep things simple, I shall keep my eye out for a nice set of wheels in the OEM fitment, and if nothing turns up I will just use the factory wheels.

Cheers... jondee

[Herbmiester 924]

These might work offset looks right. https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/wheels-tyres/alloy-wheels/listing-2209222562.htm?rsqid=1f090e83f4714287ad3fde5dd24401b0-003

or these

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/wheels-tyres/alloy-wheels/listing-2204574110.htm?rsqid=1f090e83f4714287ad3fde5dd24401b0-003 if you want 19's personally I think 18 is the sweet spot, but for track use 19's may be better.

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Herbmiester

[jon dee 500]

Yusss... I have noticed that there are always some nice wheels for sale in the $1500-2000 range, but a bit spendy for me at the moment. That 18" set are the same fitment as I have now and look to be a lighter wheel. Maybe next year

Cheers... jondee

[qube 3570]

I would agree with going with OEM genuine wheels whenever possible if not go for a reputable brand wheel. 

as reference I am running a set of square BBS 18x8.5 ET38 but with 225 40 front and 255 35 rear tyres (yes, i know, staggered tyres on a sqaure wheel, but it does fit well) they are a lightweight forged wheel and weigh next to nothing compared to aftermarket cast alloy wheels or even genuine oem wheels.

I would wait and see if any good deals pop up, you can find some good secondhand options from time to time, dont pay $1500-2000 especially for aftermarket wheels, thats just silly.

 

there are plenty of people running conservative set up's that dont require guard rolling or stretching tyres. you are lucky because the e92 335i has a huge huge community and hundreds of thousands of people fitting wheels all the time.

 

[jon dee 500]

24 minutes ago, qube said:

As reference I am running a set of square BBS 18x8.5 ET38 but with 225 40 front and 255 35 rear tyres

Doing the sums in my head, I think that front fitting puts the rim about 2mm outboard, but with the extra stretch on the tyre, it should be more or less in the same place as the OEM 18 x 8 +34 wheel with 225/40 tyre. I don't know if there are clearance differences between your F20 and my E92 coupe, but that 8.5" wheel should work for me. Useful information that

Cheers... jondee

 

 

[qube 3570]

there is definitely a difference between the F20 and the E92, my car for example originally came with something stupid with offset between 47-52 front and rear.

there was a big gap between the rim and the guards and so I went for these wheels to push the track out further and even now it is not extending past the guards so plenty of room to play with.

but as it is now, i have zero rubbing issues.

Also for your reference, I have fitted on an e91, 18x8 et13 front and 18x9.5 et25 with 225/40 and 255/35 no problems with rubbing. so judging from that, my initial recommendation of 18x8.5 et30 and 18x9.5 et25 should be a-ok

[jon dee 500]

Did a trial fit on the front with one of my little wheels and it was binding on the back plate .. live and learn... goodbye square setup   It's only sheetmetal but I'm not about to start modifying stuff, so those wheels will be on TradeMe shortly. And in view of the fact that I don't plan on tracking this car I have bought another set of the 189's that guarranty no fitting problems. Bonus is that I will now have four spare wheels  

Cheers... jondee