E30 race series

[CGB 0]

I have enjoyed ( and thank you ) all of your comments and opinions, and most of them are correct, valid and have merit, but would like to add a couple of coments as an overview.

The key objective for an E30 series is to have a series where the two main drivers are; skill and affordability. Yes of course we can have specs that include adjustable platforms, different sets of springs for each circuit , uprated front and rear sway bars, engine mods, increased camber settings, sports transmissions, but, where does one draw the line? We all have varying oponions on what makes a race car. Affordability is paramount, along with eliminating those with deep pockets gaining an advantage. Our focus is to have cars as equal as we can possibly get them, and experience no problems in sourcing cars and parts.

In setting out on this project we did not want to "re invent the wheel" and so relied on our colleagues experience in the UK with the Miltek BMW challenge series which started in 2003. Our inital specs are based on their experience. They have advised me that last year they bowed to pressure and introduced adjustable platforms, slick tyres, variable ride heights, variable sway bars, no limit on camber settings etc etc; and in their drivers representitives opinion has somewhat spoiled the series by making the gap between cars wider, increased the cost and made trailering of cars to events necessary.

Our thinking is that after the first season, a drivers representitive group would debate the pros and cons of any spec changes on going.

The whole concept is dependant on having enough competitors to start an official series, and yes I agree that to start it; will be races within races until we get the numbers up.

Appreciate any further comments as we do want to get it right for you the competitors. CGB

[E30stz 0]

Hey Colin,

Grant mentioned something about a meeting where questions about the E30 series would be able to be discussed. Hoping I havent missed this, but if its coming up soon be sure to post the details.

Cheers

Andy.

Edited April 27, 2006 by E30stz

[bumpstop325 0]

firstly, i think the series is going to be fun for all. a focus on the driver of the car is very important. Maybe, after being the race series is established and has a strong base. A look into different engine's being able to run along side the 318/320's.

But, why has there been an exculusion(sp?) of the use of the M10b18 engine, where the M20b20 is ok? (providing the m20 is L-jet, or have i missed something?)

Is the M10 engine faster than the M40?

Where the M40 powered car is alot harder to find than the M10 variant (South of the Bombays). Im sure alot of people are very disappointed, in that they are unable to race that engine. I know i had plans to run an M10 engine, but plans have taken a shelf for now.

[topless 13]

One question, why is the M10 motor excluded from the series? It is a far more robust motor than the M40 and there are certainly more M10 E30's around than M40's, and it would certainly be cheaper to purchase a pre f/l 318 with M10 motor than a f/l E30 with M40 motor.

I had planned to build two 318 M10 engined pre f/l cars for the series , and had purchased the vehicles, but have now scrapped the idea because this model is not allowed.

Will

[Guest Andrew]

Hey Colin,

Grant mentioned something about a meeting where questions about the E30 series would be able to be discussed. Hoping I havent missed this, but if its coming up soon be sure to post the details.

Cheers

Andy.

Andy: The BMWCC AGM will be the forum for these questions.

Collin: As for most of the comments we made about adjustability - it swung in two directions. Some of us wanted slightly more adjustability - while most of us wanted none. I am firmly in the none camp in a spec series such as this. While I won't voice all the questions I have about the series now, specific rules I do think need clarification.

- Is there actually a specific spring rate/ride height + shock combo? If so - is it brand specific or could I say get some KYBs made to the correct settings (not that I would)

-Why can't you use the m10 318? Thier power/weight ratio probably aren't that different to thier FL counterparts.

-Why can't you use an M40 in a prefacelift if the end racing weight/distributions are similar? As you probably know - its pretty hard to find tidy facelift E30s that aren't stupidly overpriced.

-From the way I have read the rules - you can use a prefacelift 320 - Timing advance is manually set on these cars - are you going to get timing lights out before each race to catch the guys running 30 degrees of timing advance and have av gas in the tank?

Just a few ideas - it will be an awesome series - I hope to run at least 2 Bimmersport branded cars in the series.

- Andrew

[smokenbaby 0]

Colin,

I take it you have been working with MANZ on this project. How does the E30 series full with MANZ's towards 2015 document. Reason I ask is, PRO7's where I am both a competitor and Tech officer, have had to introduce both Series 4 and Series 6 RX7's to “upgrade” the fleet to meet MANZ requirements for sanctioning. Now this leads to another question. Is it your intention to have the Class sanctioned? If so what steps/proceedures have you implemented to ensure the survival of the Series beyond 2-3 seasons. Unfortunately the NZ spectators show up to the tracks to see good close racing with speed, excitement (crashes, rubbing etc). PRO7's tend to offer everything for NZ spectators. The class was once referred to in terms of spectatorable racing as being the “hot dog stand” class. We gauged our spectator appeal by the length of the hot dog stand lines. If there were ques for a mile at the stand we didn't promote good spectator appeal. If they were short or nonexistant then we had great appeal. There are many classes at most tracks that have long hot dog stand lines ie, formula first.

The best suggestion I can make towards the rules is, Sit down with 2-3 people from within the industry (motorsport NZ, Stocks and maybe Lyall Willimson - Internation Motorsport) and produce a Rulebook based on the UK one but personalised to NZ's needs. Present this as the rule book and DON'T let drivers dictate rule changes. You should retain the right to change the rules when and where needed to tighten up wording and rule intent, parts supply (example: incase of a shortage of good second hand front guards - Fibreglass replica's may be used). This will then keep the costs down, promote an even playing field for everyone, encourage new members/drivers/teams. As a suggestion you could even go as far as having “kit” rollcages supplied by one company, that way everyone has the same. No extra bars than someone else getting an advantage by increased body stiffness etc. Spec shocks, swaybars but leave the sring rates as free. Srings to be 2.5 inch race coils (reason is cost and easier to obtain an off the sheilf spring rate) Controll the car spec as rigid as possible, don't leave holes in the rules where a competitor can abuse and get an advantage.

Let the cars evolve in a dictated but controlled manner. PRO7's Series 1 cars are 12 years old (in terms of evolution) and are still being developed and evolving into an out of controll, high cost car. Every year we have a remit process that seems to be introducing more and more rule changes. This unfortunately has hidden intentions from the person submitting the remit. What we have in effect is a cdriver controlled class and is very hard to regulate from a tech departments point of view. It is getting out of control and needs to stop. If you can get it right the first time and not allow the drivers to control it, then the better off the class will be and will progress in a more controlled manner.

I just hope that the E30 series is a hit and will promote good close exciting racing. I have been looking from the sideline at the series (as an E30 owner) and have a good friend in Grant from STOCKS. If I do look at building a car for the Series he will have imput into the building and hopefully the running of the car.

Above is just my thoughts, be them right or wrong.

Keep up the good work and please keep everyone on this forum informed of what is happening.

Kaelib

PRO7 #4

Edited April 27, 2006 by smokenbaby

[gmccormack 0]

-From the way I have read the rules - you can use a prefacelift 320 - Timing advance is manually set on these cars - are you going to get timing lights out before each race to catch the guys running 30 degrees of timing advance and have av gas in the tank?

Also the early 320's use a mechanical rev limiter which can vary a lot from car to car. It would be interesting to find an old dissy rotor that gives you a few hundred rpm over the Motronic cars. I imagine in a race serise in which everything is so tightly controlled, having a higher redline than the rest of the field would be a massive advantage.

[Guest Andrew]

-From the way I have read the rules - you can use a prefacelift 320 - Timing advance is manually set on these cars  - are you going to get timing lights out before each race to catch the guys running 30 degrees of timing advance and have av gas in the tank?

Also the early 320's use a mechanical rev limiter which can vary a lot from car to car. It would be interesting to find an old dissy rotor that gives you a few hundred rpm over the Motronic cars. I imagine in a race serise in which everything is so tightly controlled, having a higher redline than the rest of the field would be a massive advantage.

or even take it out and remove the revlimit - just remember to change gear.

[conrod 1]

-From the way I have read the rules - you can use a prefacelift 320 - Timing advance is manually set on these cars - are you going to get timing lights out before each race to catch the guys running 30 degrees of timing advance and have av gas in the tank?

Hah! I was wondering if anyone else would spot that anomaly! I thought of that one a while ago, and it would certainly offer a measurable performance advantage, over one that is running stock timing settings. However, the later 320i six cylinders, according to my information, were rated at 129hp, as opposed to 125hp of these earlier sixes, so it would be hard to tell which would be the preferred option were you to start with a clean sheet of paper.

[cainchapman 0]

Haha, you have been trained in the way of the Lyall, you could spot a loop-hole Conrad.

I think that the rules have been written well and exclude a lot of "the guy with the most money wins" mods. However, that rule will always be true. Someone that can afford to have Ernie (or the like) build them a 'stock' motor regularly will always be better off than those who run their car for an entire season without refreshing parts.

If enough cars are in the field, then it will be good racing, I'm unsure about the spectacle. And I'm too lazy to build my own car. So I'll look forward to seeing the first season.

Looking forward to the AGM.

[conrod 1]

Haha, you have been trained in the way of the Lyall, you could spot a loop-hole Conrad.

My training didn't come from Lyall thank you!

[Guest Andrew]

-From the way I have read the rules - you can use a prefacelift 320 - Timing advance is manually set on these cars  - are you going to get timing lights out before each race to catch the guys running 30 degrees of timing advance and have av gas in the tank?

Hah! I was wondering if anyone else would spot that anomaly! I thought of that one a while ago, and it would certainly offer a measurable performance advantage, over one that is running stock timing settings. However, the later 320i six cylinders, according to my information, were rated at 129hp, as opposed to 125hp of these earlier sixes, so it would be hard to tell which would be the preferred option were you to start with a clean sheet of paper.

Its incredible how much faster the cars "feel" to go when you can the timing that much

Did this to my first e30 hah

[kerrynzl 3]

Ha! Human nature. Looking for the unfair advantage before the series has even started. I'd like to see E36's [purely from a spectater/sponsor angle] but its a E30 series. I agree with the M10 argument [why not]. The tech boys should be allowed to handicap via weight. Being a Techno-Boffin I'd like to see more adjustability in the cars [camber, ride-heights,springs,shocks,pads,etc] by allowing mounting points to be moved instead of buying bling-bling anodised crap. Why have it compulsory to have Rego'd cars [there are lots of uncomplied beemers out there that would make cheap race cars] The cheapest way to get a car to go fast is to remove weight [remove something & don't replace it] this would be a direction the promoters of the series should look[it doesn't hurt reliability in most cases] having seen the pics on the forum [the cars look spot on] WOFs will be a hassle though.

"Some Sound Advice For Anyone Wanting To Build A Race Car"

Go and Buy the Mintest Most Immaculate Car You Can Find That Fits The Purpose, these cars are now selling for less than a Paint Job [Why spend your money restoring a Dog] Start from a good car & strip it out.

[Guest Andrew]

Lets bump this topic - some more input people.

Anyway - my thoughts from the meeting at BMW.

I suggest now - build the best car you can afford. I still maintain that a car with an awesomely stiff cage and exremely well set up shocks (both these items are free as the rules read now) will handle better.

I wonder why the 205/50/15 tyre is being used and not the correctly sized 55 profile tyre?

320 owners should be allowed to use 95/98 gas (especially the pre-fl ones).

I really wanted to see a series where the cars were all the same. But hey at the end of the day it's about having fun.

It's great to know that we can use our "normal" BMW race cars now - however they might want to define what a BMW is as I could be tempted to engine swap mine in future.

EDIT: Can someone post a copy of the newsletter - mine was stolen

[nath 134]

Colin- you have my old 316i right? hows it going?

[Silver Fox 43]

Copy of newsletter

BMW E30 Challenge 1/2

WHAT'S HAPPENING MAY - 2006 General

Welcome to the first what's happening update. We plan to keep you informed from time to time of where we are up to and all of the latest happenings, and tips. Circulation is planned for those of you who have expressed an interest in the series, our preferred suppliers, and of course, the BMW Car Club. We are working closely with the BMW Car Club who will assist with the setting up of a racing series in conjunction with Motorsport New Zealand. There are people in the club who have many years of experience and knowledge, to support and advise. We also plan tset up a website specifically for the Original BMW Parts E30 Challenge series which will be incorporated into the BMW Car Club website. This whole concept is dependant on having like minded competitors building cars and to have enough of those cars form the basis of a series. In my opinion, I do not want to waste the time and resources of Motorsport New Zealand, promoters, and the Car club until I am convinced that we will get the numbers. Initially we will need to start by having races within races. Of course you will not be limited just to a series, but have opportunities to compete in other events such as:- Intermarque dual sprints, leisuretime series, club days and events, Targa events etc etc. The concept as we keep stating is low cost and fun. We are convinced from feed back we have received to date that we are on the right track and a series of races are certain. A total of five cars are now under construction; 2 x 318i M40's and 3 x 320i M20's and another six have advised that they have bought or expressed serious interest. If you have already purchased a car with the express interest in this series, I would ask that you please advise me of your details and the details of your car such as:- model, colour, chassis, rego numbers and 2/4 door for a competitors register. The suppliers listed below have generously offered very special discounts to support this concept and the competitors register will ensure that their generosity is not abused. The register will be upgraded on a regular basis and forwarded to all of the suppliers.

Once you have registered we will send and invoice you for a set of decals, which will include front windscreen banner and the door sticker for you to insert your own competition number. I have had feedback that manual transmission cars are a little hard to come by, and I do agree that they are not as common as autos. However when I looked into Trade Me last evening there were 11 eligible cars on offer. Trade & Exchange and car fairs are also good sources for buying a car. There are also many BMW dismantlers ( such as Mosen Euro-parts Ltd. in Hamilton ) around the country who can supply parts to convert autos to manual transmission. Apparently not a complicated job or process in the scheme of things.

The E30 Challenge concept has created a lot of interest, comments and varying opinions. A good place to view some of these are on the website www.bimmersport.co.nz

I am sure that we will not be able to cater for everyone's wishes, but after the first season the plan is to have a drivers representative group who can the review the specs, before they are locked in for good. I would encourage you to study the specs closely as you plan and build your cars, as I am feilding questions almost daily that are well covered in the specs. There are however still a couple of areas yet to be finalised.

Testing on my car has gone well and we have made the decision ( in conjunction with the BMW Car Club) to make front and rear springs controlled for the first full season, in order to make cars much closer from a spec point of view. Please keep in mind that you will have the opportunity to present your opinions on the specs at the end of the first season.

There are a couple of parts which have been difficult to source, and I am well down the track to being able to suggest an alternative solution in the next couple of weeks; they are:-

- Fixed front top shock mounts; with 2 degree camber. There is however a BMW camber correction mount available ( which I am running in my car at the moment and has on my car given me the two degrees.) .

- Rear lower cross member bushes manufactured of polyurethane. There are various solutions available on various websites however the prices are horrific. We are also looking at the possibility of upper rear bushes with a slight negative camber to improve handling and tyre wear.

Control springs:-

318i Front = King Springs part number - KCFL - 36 - SL

Rear = King springs part number - KBRL - 14 - SL

320i Front = King springs part number - KFCL - 36 - SL / 12.5 Rear = King springs part number - KBRL - 14 - SL

Control Tyres:-

DUNLOP 205/50R15 Direzza 02G with - ( compound yet to be confirmed )

side wall markings are:- - ( to be confirmed )

Original BMW Parts

Fixed front top shock mounts; with +/- 2 degree camber 31 33 1139 484

Short shift gear lever 25 11 1434 148

Boot lip spoiler 51 71 1945 710

Decal set ( incl windscreen banner + number boxes) N888 1400 645

Wide angle door mirror glasses RH 51 16 1926 853

LH 51 16 1926 845

We are planning to finalise the overall spec sheets and issue the final within the next few weeks.

Next planned outing for my car will be at Manfield on June 4th for the Intermarque dual sprints.

DUNLOP KONI King Springs EBC Brakes

MOMO BY,GONE Auto Services Castrol

Edited May 29, 2006 by Silver Fox

[Golfboy666GTI 68]

My Father bought a cheap manual 85 323i coupe lastnight, hes thinking of converting the car to run a 320 engine and diff for this series.