N54 Intercoolers. NZ source?

[smiddy 76]

ARM, VRSF, Wagner US products supply these fasteners with their units.

Protects the plastic mount from stripping or overloading.

Not a lot of wall volume in the mount to support a larger screw.

Especially suitable for removal and refitting as the course self tap type style threading is not disturbed.

Screw in easy, to exsisting hole with torx bit.

Flat washer each side of cooler mount also.

[jon dee 500]

Awesome !! I had seen this kind of screw used in some of the online DIY's but didn't think that they would be available off the shelf here in NZ. Mitre10 say they have them in stock so I shall grab some next time I am in the store.

Cheers...

[smiddy 76]

1 hour ago, jon dee said:

Awesome !! I had seen this kind of screw used in some of the online DIY's but didn't think that they would be available off the shelf here in NZ. Mitre10 say they have them in stock so I shall grab some next time I am in the store.

Cheers...

Yep, got mine there.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

On 4/26/2021 at 12:12 PM, smiddy said:

I have spare hanger bolts you can have if your new unit does not have them.

 

Thanks if Jon didn't claim these already I'd be more than happy to cover your costs on them! Failing that, is there a part number on these? Looks like they screw in to the 'factory' holes then some other bolt goes over it? .

EDIT: Totally missed the posts about the hangar bolts and what they do...makes sense and I should get hold of these. 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by HalfJobHarry
additional info

[HalfJobHarry 106]

On 4/22/2021 at 10:01 PM, Ninjaspartan said:

Interresting to see how high the pressure drop is on some of those intercoolers.

Wonder how much these Aliexpress intercoolers drop charge pressure by? 🤔
 

 

 

I'm going to look at this indirectly by seeing how much my turbos have to work before and after. The waste gate duty cycle is an indirect measure of this. The ECU (and piggyback system) target a boost pressure at the manifold. The higher the waste gate duty cycle the more the turbos are being made to work to deliver a given pressure. If I see a substantial increase in WGDC...I can assume the pressure drop from the new intercooler is substantially bigger than the stock one. However even if that were to be the case, there must be a 'crossover' point where the increased flow volume through the intercooler + higher charge air density (lower temperature) results in positive returns. 

I think a significant issue with the stock intercooler is heat soak following multiple 'pulls' in a short space of time. That said, regardless of climate I've seen logs that show a sharp rise in IAT toward the end of a single pulls resulting in timing pulls and power 'left on the table'.

I'm keen to see what my logs say. 

[smiddy 76]

3 hours ago, HalfJobHarry said:

 

Thanks if Jon didn't claim these already I'd be more than happy to cover your costs on them! Failing that, is there a part number on these? Looks like they screw in to the 'factory' holes then some other bolt goes over it? .

EDIT: Totally missed the posts about the hangar bolts and what they do...makes sense and I should get hold of these. 

 

6mm nyloc or crimp loc nut with washer is all you need.

Part number on bag, not readable.

But welcome to these.

[jon dee 500]

Part number is CHAMPION BS1610 for the 6 x 50 if anyone else need to know

I've not been able to find anywhere around Wellington where I could safely do a hard 1st thru 5th gear pull, so I'm not fussed about the IAT going up a bit at the end of that kind of run. But anecdotal evidence and a number of casual tests reported on the internet indicate that generic stepped made in China IC's do hold the temperature down much better that the OEM IC on single gear pulls. And that did interest me for situations where there are repeated hard acceleration / hard braking cycles, or simply high speed cruising. Cool air is the best thing you can feed a turbo engine, so I figured chuck one on, get some benefit now and have a bit of headroom for future mods

Cheers...

[dragonz 16]

On 4/21/2021 at 4:34 PM, HalfJobHarry said:

Good looking store actually....I'm thinking I'll go with this guy if I can get a good shipping price. At the price those downpipes look mighty attractive too...but then I'd have to drop my subframe...and I'm really not wanting to do that just yet. 

Re the lower charge pipe....I don't see that on the store...you talking about the bit from the intercooler outlet that goes up to the charge pipe proper? 

I have a VSRF intercooler, but I got the downpipes from HZ.

The VSRF intercooler looks identical to the HZ ones.........

Fitting the downpipes was a battle, but I got them in without dropping the subframe. You just have to be patient & determined.....

Getting the stockers out was harder than fitting the new ones.

However, they don't line up perfectly at the junction to the rear exhaust system, so I made a 3mm spacer & used 2 gaskets on the one side that came up slightly short.

I suggest getting MHD flasher set up on your phone, allows you to load a tune to get the best from these mods.

I also have the XHP flasher for the auto, wow, big difference, I'd do this before the engine mods if I was starting again

[HalfJobHarry 106]

On 5/3/2021 at 8:02 PM, dragonz said:

I have a VSRF intercooler, but I got the downpipes from HZ.

The VSRF intercooler looks identical to the HZ ones.........

Fitting the downpipes was a battle, but I got them in without dropping the subframe. You just have to be patient & determined.....

Getting the stockers out was harder than fitting the new ones.

However, they don't line up perfectly at the junction to the rear exhaust system, so I made a 3mm spacer & used 2 gaskets on the one side that came up slightly short.

I suggest getting MHD flasher set up on your phone, allows you to load a tune to get the best from these mods.

I also have the XHP flasher for the auto, wow, big difference, I'd do this before the engine mods if I was starting again

The inter cooler finally arrived via detour to Israel of all places !!! (Apparently somebody though NZ was Nazareth??!). 

I cannot recommend the XHP flash enough.... went straight to Stage 3 on that and never looked about about 9 months ago. I feel that sometimes this one change has made the biggest driveability enhancement :D  The throttle blip in manual mode is just superb. 

[HalfJobHarry 106]

On 5/3/2021 at 7:32 PM, jon dee said:

Part number is CHAMPION BS1610 for the 6 x 50 if anyone else need to know

I've not been able to find anywhere around Wellington where I could safely do a hard 1st thru 5th gear pull, so I'm not fussed about the IAT going up a bit at the end of that kind of run. But anecdotal evidence and a number of casual tests reported on the internet indicate that generic stepped made in China IC's do hold the temperature down much better that the OEM IC on single gear pulls. And that did interest me for situations where there are repeated hard acceleration / hard braking cycles, or simply high speed cruising. Cool air is the best thing you can feed a turbo engine, so I figured chuck one on, get some benefit now and have a bit of headroom for future mods

Cheers...

Thank you, they have those in stock at my local Mitre 10. 

A 3rd / 4th  gear pull from rolling to redline is the 'gold standard' for data collection at least. The gear changes and associated noises can upset the knock detection etc and obscure good data. It's also handy for keeping the speeds down (ish!). 

I have plenty of data on the stock IC IATs and Wastegate duty so should be able to see any substantial pressure drops in the logs once the new one is in. 

I can relate to you on finding places to do a pull..... all of mine take place on a 'closed circuit or 'private airfield' LOL! 🤣

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by HalfJobHarry

[HalfJobHarry 106]

On 4/19/2021 at 8:35 PM, jon dee said:

Hiya... I got one from HZ Racing via Aliexpress about 18 moths back. Prices have gone up a bit since then, but looked just like the one pictured above only painted black. OEM type connections both sides and same cast end tanks. HZ are actually a manufacturer rather than a parts store, so you can get good answers to your questions if you have any. Fitted up without any problems.

I ordered an HZ alloy lower charge pipe also but never fitted it as getting the OEM one out looked to be more hassle than it was worth at the rime. So if you are after a deal on the pipe let me know  

Cheers...

Received my unit and it fits easily enough and screws in well....however I'm having a disproportionate amount of trouble getting the pipes in...I cannot for the life of me get the 'flared' retaining bits that are supposed to fit into the grooves on the intercooler to seat. Everything seems so tight...I spent about 3 hours last night trying to get the damn things to seat....this is twice as long as removal and fitting of the new intercooler itself took (such is life!). Did you have any difficulty getting the pipes in? I don't want to write this off as some kind of machining tolerance issue as the overall quality of the unit seems really good. 

[jon dee 500]

1 hour ago, HalfJobHarry said:

Did you have any difficulty getting the pipes in?

Been a while so I can't remember the exact detail of how it went, but I think it went like this... there were a couple of O-rings to be swapped over from the OEM cooler, and if so, I would have rubbed a bit of engine oil on them to stop them picking up. The spring C-clips were mounted in their "home" position on the new cooler as they work like a click-in bayonet fitting. Got the OEM hoses started on the new cooler as I pushed it up into place and put the screws in to hold it up. Then used both hands to get my thumbs behind the "flange" on the OEM hoses and pushed as hard as I could until the I heard one side of the C-clip fall into the groove. Then push-pulled until the other side of the clip clicked.

I do remember that it was a bit of a tussle to get the clips engaged. I may have removed the cooler fixing screw from the end I was working on to let me push the cooler a bit closer to the hose, but I can't be sure of that. It was just the last couple of mm that was a problem and I reached about level 8 on the curse-o-meter

Cheers...

[HalfJobHarry 106]

2 minutes ago, jon dee said:

Been a while so I can't remember the exact detail of how it went, but I think it went like this... there were a couple of O-rings to be swapped over from the OEM cooler, and if so, I would have rubbed a bit of engine oil on them to stop them picking up. The spring C-clips were mounted in their "home" position on the new cooler as they work like a click-in bayonet fitting. Got the OEM hoses started on the new cooler as I pushed it up into place and put the screws in to hold it up. Then used both hands to get my thumbs behind the "flange" on the OEM hoses and pushed as hard as I could until the I heard one side of the C-clip fall into the groove. Then push-pulled until the other side of the clip clicked.

I do remember that it was a bit of a tussle to get the clips engaged. I may have removed the cooler fixing screw from the end I was working on to let me push the cooler a bit closer to the hose, but I can't be sure of that. It was just the last couple of mm that was a problem and I reached about level 8 on the curse-o-meter

Cheers...

Ahh good info thank you. So like the radiator hose clips...you have the clip on BEFORE pushing the connecting hose in?

Also do you have a nut on the hanger bolts before the intercooler too? The hangar bolts don't go in as far as the stock screws so I followed some of those DIYs and put a nut on first...then the intercooler...then a fixing bolt.... I'm wondering if that extra nut is causing me grief? 

Yeah I'm pretty high on the curse-o meter right now. The intercooler itself seems to be fitting VERY well ...it's just the hose connections

[jon dee 500]

I just re-used the factory screws to hold the cooler up... that's what I had at the time. Made sure they threaded back into the plastic without cutting a new thread and tightened them until the lugs on the cooler were hard against whatever they bear on, and snugged the screws down. Was careful not to over-tighten them as I notice that most of the screws on my car that screw into plastic have stripped threads from over-tightening (fkn power tools!!!).

I have bought the Champion "hanger bolts" and was surprised to see that they don't look to have any more thread than the factory screws. So the only advantage they have is that once installed, the part that threads into the plastic does not have to be removed again, which will preserve the thread in the plastic. So long as the coarse thread is into the plastic far enough that it does not interfere with tightening a nut on the fine thread, I see no reason for a nut on top of the lug. From an engineering point of view it just makes it more likely that the cooler will move around. A flat washer between the nut and the lug on the cooler and a nyloc would be good.

Don't overdo cranking on the nyloc though, as being a finer thread it will generate more clamping force than the coarse thread for the same tightening torque. And you don't want to strip the thread in the plastic as that would be a level 10 cursing event !!!!

Cheers...

[smiddy 76]

No need for nut, but a small flat washer, blue tacked or super glued lightly to mount face will protect somewhat the cooler mount and vehicle mount mating surface.

Lube with oil or silicone, pipes and recieving ends of cooler.

Easily also with wriggling for clips to seat in a locked position.

I found fitting clips after pipes were fully engaged into cooler an easier option.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

47 minutes ago, jon dee said:

I just re-used the factory screws to hold the cooler up... that's what I had at the time. Made sure they threaded back into the plastic without cutting a new thread and tightened them until the lugs on the cooler were hard against whatever they bear on, and snugged the screws down. Was careful not to over-tighten them as I notice that most of the screws on my car that screw into plastic have stripped threads from over-tightening (fkn power tools!!!).

I have bought the Champion "hanger bolts" and was surprised to see that they don't look to have any more thread than the factory screws. So the only advantage they have is that once installed, the part that threads into the plastic does not have to be removed again, which will preserve the thread in the plastic. So long as the coarse thread is into the plastic far enough that it does not interfere with tightening a nut on the fine thread, I see no reason for a nut on top of the lug. From an engineering point of view it just makes it more likely that the cooler will move around. A flat washer between the nut and the lug on the cooler and a nyloc would be good.

Don't overdo cranking on the nyloc though, as being a finer thread it will generate more clamping force than the coarse thread for the same tightening torque. And you don't want to strip the thread in the plastic as that would be a level 10 cursing event !!!!

Cheers...

Thanks for the insight once again....yes I was curious as to the 2nd bolt....I my hose struggle might be magnified by having the intercooler sitting several mm lower than it could be (but that said others 'out there' managed to get it in). 

Notes of caution advised...yes it would be easy to crank up the nylocs too much and start stripping the plastic thread... 

[HalfJobHarry 106]

2 minutes ago, smiddy said:

No need for nut, but a small flat washer, blue tacked or super glued lightly to mount face will protect somewhat the cooler mount and vehicle mount mating surface.

Lube with oil or silicone, pipes and recieving ends of cooler.

Easily also with wriggling for clips to seat in a locked position.

I found fitting clips after pipes were fully engaged into cooler an easier option.

Thanks. I'm thinking I might have an alignment issue...because my pipe fitting experience has been......not just difficult but bloody impossible so far...and I've tackled some nasty jobs over the years...something is feeling a bit wrong. I think I'll drop it...remove the extra nut...add some bigger washers (the ones I have are a bit small my my comfort...reposition, lube up those fittings and the cooler and have at it. 

[jon dee 500]

On the bright side... in 20 or 30 years time you will look back and laugh about the problems you had fitting this intercooler

Cheers...

[HalfJobHarry 106]

3 minutes ago, jon dee said:

On the bright side... in 20 or 30 years time you will look back and laugh about the problems you had fitting this intercooler

Cheers...

Indeed  ....strangely it's never the bit of a job I expect to be difficult that turns out to be difficult. I'd have thought getting the new intercooler into place at all would be the hard part...interestingly I did not have to trim or cut anything....there is a small 'lip' that attaches to the bottom of the of the stock intercooler and lower front bumper that looks like it won't go back on but apart from that all good. 

[HalfJobHarry 106]

Success I think! Removed the 2nd nuts....and greased the intercooler fittings and pipe fittings...I'm astonished by the amount of force needed (by hand) to press the connections in firmly. I had some expectation that they would just pop nicely into place....there clearly is a lot of resistance from the o-ring and the metal on metal...even with a decent application of grease. 

I'm not 100% satisfied they are fully seated but but c-clips did seem to snap in and engage with something. A good tug on the fittings and they don't seem to budge. 

Do these look fully engaged? 

I'm going to try and lash together a boost leak testing setup as I really don't want to button everything back up and have something pop off the first time I hit full boost. 

[smiddy 76]

looks good to me!

[jon dee 500]

 Yah... basically, the clip sits down in the groove until the lugs on the hose end fittings get under as you push the parts together. Then the clip is pressed up out of the groove until the lug gets far enough in, and then it snaps back down into the groove and the parts are locked together. So if the clip is down in the groove on both sides you are good to go

Cheers...

[HalfJobHarry 106]

10 hours ago, jon dee said:

 Yah... basically, the clip sits down in the groove until the lugs on the hose end fittings get under as you push the parts together. Then the clip is pressed up out of the groove until the lug gets far enough in, and then it snaps back down into the groove and the parts are locked together. So if the clip is down in the groove on both sides you are good to go

Cheers...

Gotcha! Yeah the clips are seated on both sides and nothing seems to be moving at all! Will share my boost leak testing results when I'm done.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

So finally got things sorted and boost leak tested. Not convinced I managed to pressurize things up to 10 psi ...but couldn't hear anything leaking. 

Initial intercooler tests are not complete as had no opportunity to do any WOT pulls, however initial impressions are possibly a more responsive mid range. Also just cruising around IAT stays much more around ambient ...with the stock IC things used to creep up (to a point) even when not doing pulls. 

Initial look at the logs while hitting only a max of 8 psi (will have to wait for some max boost opportunities) showed that the WGDC was no higher than with stock. Also I noticed , but don't have enough data to be conclusive, that the WGDC seems lower when spooling the turbos in response to a quick demand for power. Nowhere near enough data yet, but if that is the case then it would point to the new IC having less pressure drop across it than the stock IC (which one hopes to be the case but you never know!). 

Will report back with more info when I have it. The real test will only be for those WOT pulls. 

 

[smiddy 76]

My car took about 3 days to wake up to the new found volume and flows.

Off boost part throttle response marked improvement, on spooling big gains in torque delivery, ( bum dyno) in stock turbo band range.