Advice on Lowering Evo M3

[s.o.s.nz 0]

Hi

I need about an inch more, Ibe seen Tien Spring Kits where you just swap the springs over, very cheap, less than 1g.

Is this an idea or am I going to loose alot of the MTech Suspension technology by messing with it?

Thanks

[Braeden320 0]

What wheels are you running?

[s.o.s.nz 0]

What wheels are you running?

18s

9.5 rear

245 40

8.5 front

235 35

[steve R 0]

So you want to put some cheap and nasty springs in , lower the car and you are running stretched tyres on oversized rims, and they are probably no te flashest tyres any way.

Short answer your car probably handles worse than standard currently and you are likely to make it even worse again

Would any sane person recommend spending money to make something worse??

because not everyone needs there car to be a perfectly handling road going race car, and not every one drives the roads of piha every day. why would any sane person spend thousands of dollars on suspension when they drive on the motor way etc all the time? different strokes for different fokes.

[zenetti 0]

So you want to put some cheap and nasty springs in , lower the car and you are running stretched tyres on oversized rims, and they are probably no te flashest tyres any way.

Short answer your car probably handles worse than standard currently and you are likely to make it even worse again

Would any sane person recommend spending money to make something worse??

How are Tein cheap and nasty? Just like Monroe are crap? As 328imobbin says different strokes for different folks. Everything is designed for a purpose, Monroe may not be the best performance shock around but for 90% of the population they are fine. Likewise Tein are one of the best spring manufacturers around.

SOS if you want some proper advice talk to Keith from H&R, he is one of the forum sponsors and has a huge amont of knowledge regarding springs and suspension, afterall it is his business. Likewise if you want mechanical advice go to the experts ie Botany motorworx. There are a lot of people on here with a little knowledge. This can be very dangerous, and it can get very confusing. Do it once, do it right - go to the experts!

If your car already has Mtech springs you will find that any spring kit will only lower your car by a further 20mm or so, which is close to what you are after. Simply by changing springs you will not affect the shocks.

cheers

Edited December 19, 2007 by zenetti

[SUSPENSION 0]

How are Tein cheap and nasty? Just like Monroe are crap? As 328imobbin says different strokes for different folks. Everything is designed for a purpose, Monroe may not be the best performance shock around but for 90% of the population they are fine. Likewise Tein are one of the best spring manufacturers around.

SOS if you want some proper advice talk to Keith from H&R, he is one of the forum sponsors and has a huge amont of knowledge regarding springs and suspension, afterall it is his business. Likewise if you want mechanical advice go to the experts ie Botany motorworx. There are a lot of people on here with a little knowledge. This can be very dangerous, and it can get very confusing. Do it once, do it right - go to the experts!

If your car already has Mtech springs you will find that any spring kit will only lower your car by a further 20mm or so, which is close to what you are after. Simply by changing springs you will not affect the shocks.

cheers

Thanks Zenetti, there are many different options available some cheaper, some more expensive, all brands are good in their own right, kings dobi jamex vogtland h&r eibach, some people prefer different height options and different price options, I deal with many different brands depending upon what the customer is looking for, ie. height, handling ,price, which is one of the reasons we import H&R into NZ as around the world it is considered one of the best brands you can get by many happy customers around the world which gives an unbiased opinion, but in saying that we are not here to undermine anyone else's product and respect other people's products and opinion's, which is fine but 3pedals we all respect your opinion but maybe a bit of diplomacy might be good as we have also had many years of experience, but myself and all the other forum sponsers on here are always willing to learn something new and leave our ego's firmly at the door to try and give the most up to date and informative knowledge available at the time, thats why we are here, if I wan't info on tyre options or mechanical knowledge I also use the forum sponsors, because quite frankly they know more than I do about certain things, Zenetti has many happy wheel and tyre customers simply because they get what they they are looking for, Botany Motorworx has many years of BMW experience and hard work early morning starts to people on back on the road as fast as he can, we are allowed to sponser the site because we wan't to do the best we can for the members, our advice is free.

[isnowi 0]

Hi all, I don't profess to know nearly as much as some of the poster's on this particular thread, all have valid points, and i too am appalled at the state of a good proportion of the cars on the road today. (both standard family cars and cherished examples of modified vehicles) I believe that there is only a small minority who purposefully endanger themselves and other road users through poor modification of vehicles, the majority of people who fall into the same endangering themselves and others category, are, in my opinion, blissfully unaware of the fact. Put this down to ignorance or poor information from vendors that should and do know better.

That being said, i take issue with 3 pedals on only 1 assertion made, that is that the statement that all your posts are objective, I find your first post on this particular thread not at all objective, you have made one or two cynical assumptions, the first being that SOSnz has bought cheap tyres, totally unqualified comment in my opinion, for all we know he could be running p zeros or similar. The second assumption made was that he was looking to put the cheapest possible spring set on his car, personally i would find an assumption like that to be extremely offensive, he has only asked about one particular branded spring, and it is by no means the cheapest available in the NZ market.

As for commenting about stretched tyres, several tyre companies recommend a 245 40 18 for anywhere between 8.5-9.5" wide rims, and similar for the 235 35 18's OK so he may be at the maximum manufacturer recommended size, but certainly not stretched to the extreme.

And lastly Over sized rims, again a fairly unqualified statement. All we know is they are 18" rims, where the m3 came with 17" rims, one size up only which as i recall was recommended as the maximum increase in rim size for a long time, again it is not an extreme change from original equipment, now maybe if they were 20" chrome wheels the comment would be entirely justified, and then some, but in this instance i think it is inflammatory.

For the last point i will quote SOSNZ where he stated:

Is this an idea or am I going to loose alot of the MTech Suspension technology by messing with it?

Clearly he is asking for informed opinion, of which you obviously have a great deal, as do many other users on here, before he goes ahead and makes any rash purchasing decisions that may or may not compromise the safety and handling of his car.

I hope you don't take personal offence at this post, that is not the intended result, i am merely pointing out that there is room for a modicum of diplomacy when dealing with new users, who are asking genuine questions, and looking for informed answers to help them safely enjoy their motoring.

In the short time that i have been reading these forums i have found them to be exceptionally well furnished with knowledge and help, i hope it stays this way.

By the way it is nice being able to read a forum that is written in English too, with a minimum of colloquialism that i am now too old to understand.

Thanks, Dan

[isnowi 0]

You should read my initial comments a little further back, they were some what tongue in cheek, but they did invite comment, but the subsequent comments are reasonably objective as opposd to the raft of usual cliche's trotted out to support some questionable practice like the one about tyre manufacturers giving a range of rim widths.

Toyo in particular give a very wide range others give very narrow range in my day there was an optimum rim size plus or minus half an inch and this is probably still valid if you want the tyre to deliver its "optimum behaviour" you could stretch it a further Inch but the wold be sub optimal.

And as you may have picked up I am picky and try to make things work well, but thats just my take on life

The comment about oversized wheels was in reference to the width at 9.5 not the diameter

Now thats objective comment, you are right about the ranges of tyre/rim combos now compared to back in the day. I was reading some tyre specs the other day, i forget who's they were, and they gave a range of about 2.5" and this was for a 215 45 17, so not a particularily large peice of real estate or aspect ratio.

I can identify with being picky, i just tell myself i have high standards.

I apologise for taking your comments out of context, i did not pick up the 'tongue and cheekness'. Anyway, that is probably enough thread jacking for now.

Thanks, dan

[*Glenn* 854]

Just wondered wether we should have these threads split up into categories ????

(1) Street (legal & WOF issues)

(2) Daily rides ( mums shopping basket )

(3) Rally & track ( petrol heads )

(4) Concourse ( for the pretty people )

(5) Extreme ( over kill, for people with too much money to waste )

(6) Hoons ( temporary Kiwi's )

<<<< Just an old farts thoughts

[hybrid 1039]

Okies, back on topic.

I will post my experience with lowering my 330i on quality lowering springs. Pi springs (uk) vs my current KW v2 ‘coil-overs’

About 3 years ago I purchased my 330i with 40ks on the clock (I guess you could say the standard shocks were 'run in')

I wanted wheels and to lower it. So one pre-req to the shop wasI didn’t want a hard spring rate. So they put in a set of Pi power springs.

Lowering it down about 50mm I was running my shock at about 60-75% compression. The following behaviour was experienced.

* Medium compression

* Rebound was 'medium to soft'

* Suspension was what I called unbalanced

So when I went over a bump or whoop in the road as the suspension compress it was firm and when it was on rebound it was soft, which caused my car 'trampoline' over hard bumps at speed. It defiantly handled a lot better than stock but I would say I was 100% happy with it. However im a little anal about handling and understand it more than most. Legal quality lowering springs are fine for most people just wanting to lower there car. If you factory shocks are up to the task then go for it.

on the other side of that, coil over’s really are the next level. That floppy rebound feeling totally disappears. I recently had a very hard drive down in Havelock north with the coil over’s and I can tell you it was some of the most enjoyable driving I have done in a while.

If you can save that extra 2k (around 3-3500 total) then do it! you’ll love yourself for it! Specially in an m3.

Coil- over’s

* Medium - firm Compression

* Rebound Medium - firm (adjustable)

* Balanced feeling with no 'trampoline' effect on whoops IE your tires stay on the road longer over bumps = more control

Note: I also upgraded to EiBach / AC Schnitzer sway bars, but this is mainly around cornering and steering placement

The choice is totally up to you. Most people are happy with springs and that’s fine. This is just a user’s perspective on the topic.

[hybrid 1039]

Sure,

Improvements from a lower center of gravity. I did infact change my spring rate to a little firmer... Sorry I cant remember the rates of the springs.

However I found that over time the shock had to work 'harder' as it was under constant compression.

The trampoline effect was felt at its worst when after coming down the back straight of Taupo raceway and into the back corner under hard cornering the car would almost bounce. (these were extreme condidtions)

I obviously was reach beyound what the stock shocks was designed for. However on the road, my car was still very comfortible.

Coil overs are not necesarily the next step of improvement , the main difference with coil overs is the height adjustability.

A well engineered conventional arrangement from say Koni or Bilstein will be (vastly) superior to a poorly designed or made Coil over out of say Taiwan.

It is all about what the shock has been designed to do, how well it does it and how well it is matched to the springs , the rest of the suspension and the car.

Your forgetting probably the main reason for getting coilovers and thats adjustiblity on the shock.

I run koni race shocks in the e30 (Yellow) on a ground control "coil-over" and adjustible perch system with adjustible camber / castor tops and 525 / 700 pound medium race springs. This setup is for my race car while the KW Variant 2's are more for sporty road driving, with scope for the odd track session setup

KW have been quite prominant in BMW racing for some years now, I choose them as they have designed a great qaulity and tested product.

While a fan of koni and bilstien myself I have had my eyes opened up to other brands out there.

Every country has its favourites.

In the US its H&R, Bilstein, Moton.

In Germany / northern europe its KW, Ohlins, Koni

In NZ its Tien, D2, Munroe etc etc

I choose mine because they have a great reputation on european cars on and contuct testing and have developed their products on the nurburgring on my actual chassis.

Japan has "the" drift scene for the world and Tien are at the top of their game in this scene.

I agree there are some really bad knock offs around and people are easily lead by crap.

If the deal is too good to be true, then it probably is.

[hybrid 1039]

Interesting you mention Tein and drifiting in the same sentence

Drifting is all about losing traction wheras those of us looking to create great road cars are looking at increasing traction.

Not to bring thing off topic too much, but you do know that the setup and object of drift is to actually create as much grip and stability and therefore control as possible. They use the amount of inertia and momentum to break traction not the suspension...

There several floors in your way of think fella and while you know your sh*t, it is also very closed minded.

[PBOY23 0]

very technical

[zenetti 0]

So you want to put some cheap and nasty springs in , lower the car and you are running stretched tyres on oversized rims, and they are probably no te flashest tyres any way.

Short answer your car probably handles worse than standard currently and you are likely to make it even worse again

Would any sane person recommend spending money to make something worse??

245 roughly equals 9.5"

235 roughly equals 9.2"

can't understand how the tyres are stretched? and don't get the quantum leap in logic to "no te flashest tyres anyway"

he probably meant 245/35 and 235/40 which is close to factory upsize.

would any sane person recommend spending money to make something worse - short answer no, but think about this: why would any sane person also spend thousands of dollars trying to make their car LIKE an M3? why not just buy an M3? No matter how much money you spend it will never be as good as the original.

Monroes may be 'crap' for what you do and how you drive but it does not mean they ARE CRAP. Just like goodyears or Dunlops ARE CRAP because you think they are. I have gone over all this before in a previous tyre thread and can't really be bothered going over the term "fit for a purpose" all over again.

Hybrid you are 100% correct in the way you have explained drifting. The technology that goes into the cars is unbelievable. Talking to Carl Ruiterman blew me away with what he has done to make the car handle. Going through the Puke sweeper at 200km sideways takes one hell of a car set up. That speed I would hazard a guess is probably close to the NZ V8's speed. Oh and one more point - his tyre of choice - Goodyear Eagle F1, decided upon after 8 hours of testing.

Back on Topic (again)

If you want a relatively cheap way to lower your car a reputable well known brand of progressive lowered springs are the BEST bang for buck way of doing it.

another big rant for the boys FTW

PS how do you compare Monroes D2's and Opossums WTF??????

Edited December 22, 2007 by zenetti

[s.o.s.nz 0]

Yea so, about an inch or two on my M3...

[3 SERIES 92]

About 75 % we see are caused by people losing control after taking evasive action to avoid an on coming car - the key to this is the car taking the evasive actions is usually the one in the wrong.

20% are caused by people misjudging the road/ conditions or not having the skills to manage the car.

Lastly about 5% are real "accidents"

That means 95% are avoidable crashes not accidents because they the consequence of deliberate actions of the driver in most cases.

I'd like to know where these percentage figures came from? Your head maybe?

[zenetti 0]

Yea so, about an inch or two on my M3...

haha!........ yeah back on topic as mentioned earlier, best bang for buck will be lowering springs. Bear in mind that your car is already lower than most 3 series from factory so you will prob only get another 20mm or so. Other than that I guess you would go for a full adjustable coilover setup.

3pedals - I think it is best if you keep your head in the sand that we don't get to hear more of your dribble (looks for the blacklist button like on Trade Me but bangs his head cos he can't find it) :banghead: :banghead:

[will 169]

(looks for the blacklist button like on Trade Me but bangs his head cos he can't find it) :banghead: :banghead:

Go to "my controls", select "manage ignored users" and add plonker's user name...

Unfortunately there are a couple of people on the forum who are determined to displace the Almighty when they die, they don't have opinions, what they spew forth is gospel and beware any poor mortal who dares to question/challenge their statements of FACT..

Back to s.o.s.n.z... the M3 comes pretty well setup standard, but it is an all-round setup that leans towards performance handling.

In my opinion, the improvement worth investing money in would be a decent set of adjustable coilovers matched to the vehicle and installed and setup by someone who KNOWS what they are doing. (not forgetting that, no matter how good the suspension setup is, it will only handle as well as the tyres allow it to...)

A spring swap would not be my personal choice here.

Will