Junior Doctors Strike

[Yuen 16]

Yeah ....right

I'm not so sure her partner would agree to that though. And your son would need very deep pockets.....VERY DEEP

Her aspirations are very, VERY high

And here come the negotiations Congrats to your daughter Glenn that is an impressive raise. When you say 'not quite fully qualified' are you saying she's not chartered yet?

Sounds like OSH or NZ health and safety needs to come to the party, thats like sending a truck driver out at night to do a delivery after being on the road all week. You are going to kill somebody sooner or later!! As for that money though, its pretty good after 5 years so quit your complaining!!

You seem to have something against doctors? I think it isn't that great considering the amount they studied, the hours they worked and the responsibility. You have my support for the strike!

[*Glenn* 854]

And here come the negotiations Congrats to your daughter Glenn that is an impressive raise. When you say 'not quite fully qualified' are you saying she's not chartered yet?

Thanks Yuen...her final exams this year then she's "chartered"

[M325is 0]

You seem to have something against doctors? I think it isn't that great considering the amount they studied, the hours they worked and the responsibility. You have my support for the strike!

Your right, I don't like doctors, haven't done much good for me, or my family for that matter. They killed both my grandads from operation f**k ups. Majority are all arseholes who think of their wallets and not so much about the patients needs. They have a job to do like the rest of us. They are no god.

[M325is 0]

Doctors need to realize they work for the public, so don't bite the hand that feeds you!

[CamB 48]

As for that money though, its pretty good after 5 years so quit your complaining!!

They killed both my grandads from operation f**k ups. Majority are all arseholes who think of their wallets and not so much about the patients needs. They have a job to do like the rest of us. They are no god.

Doctors need to realize they work for the public, so don't bite the hand that feeds you!

Disclosure of interest - my wife is a 1st year junior doctor at Middlemore.

Cliff notes, coz this is long:

- We have a junior doctor shortage

- The strike is to address the shortage

- Shortage is causing lower quality of care, not the doctors

- Shortage is cause by uncompetitive pay rates and conditions

First up some "facts" (nothing's precise in all this, so I'll do the best I can) based on my missus:

- they do get $55-75k pa

- 1st/2nd year junior doctors get about $22-25/hour for hours worked

- They get 6 weeks of paid leave, the extra time makes up for the:

- 1 weekend in 4 that they have to work

- having 6 weeks of holidays sounds good, but they are too understaffed to have holidays. I know someone who was refused leave related to her wedding (as in, she was refused leave in the couple of days before it)

- pay scale depends on hours worked, which depends on department

- they get free food

- they are paid for 50-60 hours a week, but most will work about 10 more than that

- each week will feature 1-2 long days. This means working from about 7am 'till 11pm. They're back in there at 7am.

Plenty of people think this sounds like a good deal. The point they're missing is that:

- its a stressful job

- doctors need to be extremely smart and precise

- no part of the day is spent looking at Facebook - they work very, very hard

- mistakes are bad, very bad

On top of this, there is a severe junior doctor shortage - its not uncommon for there to be 50% vacancy rates for salaried positions. This has several affects:

- the junior doctors that are there have to pick up the extra work - extra hours and stress. There is no extra pay for this

- to fill (partially fill, actually) the vacant positions, the DHBs pay locums (basically reliever doctors) $75-100/hour, and sometimes more

- obviously they don't want to pay this, so to the extent possible they force the extra work onto the junior doctors.

The strongest incentives for resident (salaried) junior doctors are to either move to Australia and get paid around 30% more to work in a well staffed hospital, or to locum here in NZ at around 3-4x the pay rate and be able to choose their hours. The high locum rate is a symptom of the severe doctor shortage - this will only get worse and the longer it goes on the lower the quality of healthcare that can possibly be delivered.

So - arguably the strikes are about money, but the reason the strikes are happening is to get the DHBs to change their attitude to one which will retain doctors. If they don't change, in about 5-10 years we're screwed.

[Avenged.SSE 0]

I think comparatively what doctors are getting paid is a joke. Consider other occupations, such as a plumber who gets paid much more, not as much stress, not likely to kill anyone and no student loan. $23 per hour is a terrible rate. I have many friends who are in their late teens on $17-19 per hour, with no qualifications, student loan or anything of the sort. I'm currently studying towards getting into med school, but money is not the main driving factor, because there are many other professions whereby you can get 2x as much money, with much less stress. This NZ herald article mentions that the avg pay is $71k based on a 60 hour work, keeping in mind this is considered 'average' and for a first year, and for a house surgeon it's 88k average. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?...jectid=10504783

[bmwstz 0]

Considering they've been at uni for what 7years and have a 100k student loan?

They may get well paid but they've worked bloody hard to get there.

Also i think the average no. of hours they work is more like 64-68 from memory

Do they go into the profession knowing they will earn $XX or do they go in to actually help people?

Now with loans being interest free... the current base rate is sufficient.

I would rather have the waiting times sliced then have the doctors paid more.... which would mean less service as the budget doesn't increase to compensate.

But on the other hand... I would rather Doctors received more money then where alot of our tax-payers money goes like $1mil to repair a f**ken dome that some m-juice hippies sliced up!!!

[*Glenn* 854]

Disclosure of interest - my wife is a 1st year junior doctor at Middlemore.

Cliff notes, coz this is long:

- We have a junior doctor shortage

- The strike is to address the shortage

- Shortage is causing lower quality of care, not the doctors

- Shortage is cause by uncompetitive pay rates and conditions

First up some "facts" (nothing's precise in all this, so I'll do the best I can) based on my missus:

- they do get $55-75k pa

- 1st/2nd year junior doctors get about $22-25/hour for hours worked

- They get 6 weeks of paid leave, the extra time makes up for the:

- 1 weekend in 4 that they have to work

- having 6 weeks of holidays sounds good, but they are too understaffed to have holidays. I know someone who was refused leave related to her wedding (as in, she was refused leave in the couple of days before it)

- pay scale depends on hours worked, which depends on department

- they get free food

- they are paid for 50-60 hours a week, but most will work about 10 more than that

- each week will feature 1-2 long days. This means working from about 7am 'till 11pm. They're back in there at 7am.

Plenty of people think this sounds like a good deal. The point they're missing is that:

- its a stressful job

- doctors need to be extremely smart and precise

- no part of the day is spent looking at Facebook - they work very, very hard

- mistakes are bad, very bad

On top of this, there is a severe junior doctor shortage - its not uncommon for there to be 50% vacancy rates for salaried positions. This has several affects:

- the junior doctors that are there have to pick up the extra work - extra hours and stress. There is no extra pay for this

- to fill (partially fill, actually) the vacant positions, the DHBs pay locums (basically reliever doctors) $75-100/hour, and sometimes more

- obviously they don't want to pay this, so to the extent possible they force the extra work onto the junior doctors.

The strongest incentives for resident (salaried) junior doctors are to either move to Australia and get paid around 30% more to work in a well staffed hospital, or to locum here in NZ at around 3-4x the pay rate and be able to choose their hours. The high locum rate is a symptom of the severe doctor shortage - this will only get worse and the longer it goes on the lower the quality of healthcare that can possibly be delivered.

So - arguably the strikes are about money, but the reason the strikes are happening is to get the DHBs to change their attitude to one which will retain doctors. If they don't change, in about 5-10 years we're screwed.

Very well put... pity something like this doesnt get into the papers. So we can truley understand what the hell is going on. It may only be one side of the story, but the NZ press often is biased with what they want us to know, instead of all the facts.

[Jeddy 0]

Do they go into the profession knowing they will earn $XX or do they go in to actually help people?

Now with loans being interest free... the current base rate is sufficient.

I would rather have the waiting times sliced then have the doctors paid more.... which would mean less service as the budget doesn't increase to compensate.

But on the other hand... I would rather Doctors received more money then where alot of our tax-payers money goes like $1mil to repair a f**ken dome that some m-juice hippies sliced up!!!

With a huge student loan that when you start working you have to start paying back.

Also they'll have a hard time getting a mortgage with a loan like that so it'll be a while before they can begin to think about it.

[westy 614]

So are the doctors looking for shorter hours or more money?!?

While I have sympathy for the hours worked 55-75k is a pretty good whack.

[CamB 48]

Very well put... pity something like this doesnt get into the papers. So we can truley understand what the hell is going on. It may only be one side of the story, but the NZ press often is biased with what they want us to know, instead of all the facts.

I'm obviously biased (although I try not to be).

A lot of the problem is that the media gives a reasonably even weight to what the DHBs and Cunliffe say. They aren't playing with a very straight bat...

For instance, the average pay for house surgeons (which are 1st/2nd year junior doctors) is nothing like $88k - I have no idea how they get that #. My wife's on the top rate at around $76k pa - that's because she's currently working in surgery and works the longest hours (7am start not 8am, 2 long days per week not 1, etc). I think its a 65hr/week pay scale (for 5.5 days a week - thats 12 hours a day), although she works much more than that by the time she's stayed late a couple of times a week and worked the long days.

Who knows where the other $12k that Cunliffe refers to comes from...

The DHBs are worse in some ways - all they talk about is how the junior doctors lack loyalty. They should be more worried about the medium and long term effect of the exodus of doctors to other countries - its going to get worse... Apparently most of the senior doctors support what the juniors are doing - they understand the implications of underfunding a key resource in the health system.

[CamB 48]

So are the doctors looking for shorter hours or more money?!?

While I have sympathy for the hours worked 55-75k is a pretty good whack.

Both.

$55-75k isn't a good whack. Google what investment bankers earn.

7-8 years ago, when the majority of them were 18 years old, they probably had no idea what doctors get paid. More importantly, they probably didn't imagine they'd find themselves working in a job where they were made to feel guilty for taking leave, and where the part-timer (locum) beside them doing the same job was earning 3-4x what they were.

Don't focus on whether you think $55-75k is good money, focus on whether doctors will stay in the country and who will look after the public. The doctors that are still here are actually the loyal ones...

[eurobandit 0]

I'm a 'Junior' Doctor working at Waikato Hospital. I'm NOT a member of the Union but I work daily with my colleagues and I know the hours we all work. I'd like to gauge your thoughts on the issue as I believe there is going to be another strike next week.

Cheers.

i believe junior doctors and doctors should get good money, they are over used and under valued.my best friend walked into the hospital happy as and two years later hes still in a wheelchair and has limited use of his hands,a operation gone wrong.but we all believe this may not have happened if we had the right people working as doctors .just because aunty helen clarke only wants to pay crap wages to the people most needed in this country we ended up with over worked and pissed off doctors,or worse doctors from over seas that cant work in their country because they stuffed up so they come to ours and when things go pear shape they are off,look at the doctor in wanganui.im not saying all doctors from overseas are like this,my doctor is from south africa hes great..

Edited May 1, 2008 by eurobandit

[Nic325i 0]

Disclosure of interest - my wife is a 1st year junior doctor at Middlemore.

Other stuff

If they don't change, in about 5-10 years we're screwed.

Similar disclosure - partner is 3rd year doc at Auckland. Cam's facts are pretty much spot on. The most galling aspect to my partner is that she works alongside Locums who get 75$/hr, choose the hours they want, where they want, and manage to get 40 hours per week no issues.

Before someone says "well go and do that then", she has considered it - but in answer to other posters who suggested doctors only get into it for the money, she doesn't feel it is right to abuse the system that way.

What is needed is more dhb recognition of loyalty - bonuses for working a full 12 months contracted etc. Not necessarily higher salaries.

With a huge student loan that when you start working you have to start paying back.

Also they'll have a hard time getting a mortgage with a loan like that so it'll be a while before they can begin to think about it.

Student loan doesn't really come into mortgage applications - the bank looks at "take home" pay rather than gross, so for someone with a student loan it is just like they pay 3%(??) more tax.

[M325is 0]

I'm sorry what is a Locum?

I think the junior docs should just wait till next year. They have picked a very bad time to be asking for money, Elections and all.

Maybe they should just all go work over seas, then we can have cheap health care as we would have immigrant doctors. I pay $15 a visit to the GP (instead of $60) because all the doctors there are immigrants. So long as they prescribe the right medication your sweet. And all they do is punch your symptoms into the comp and it tells them what your likely to be experiencing and then tells them what to prescribe you! Sounds like an easy job to me.

[CamB 48]

Locum is a "reliever" doctor (like a reliever teacher at school) - someone who is contracted to do the job day by day. They should really only be used to cover when doctors are sick or on leave, not to fill vacant positions. Its tremendously expensive. Imagine if your job was being done by a part-timer for 3-4x what you are paid, and they left at 4pm since they don't have to deal with the issues the next day.

It isn't quite as simple as plugging symptoms into a computer. Don't forget, immigrant doctors with qualifications we recognise go to Australia too, since the pay is better. There is global competition for qualified doctors. The ones we don't let practice here don't meet the qualification standards here. I guess what I'm saying is that you can't rely on immigrant doctors coming here to fill the positions - they aren't doing it now and its only going to get worse.

Honestly, they're pretty smart - while being a doctor is apparently nothing like Grey's Anatomy/ER/Scrubs/House, whenever my wife and I are watching those shows and there are obscure injuries (ie in House), she almost always knows what it is. There's less random sex in real hospitals.

(edit) At least that's what she tells me

Edited May 1, 2008 by CamB

[M325is 0]

It isn't quite as simple as plugging symptoms into a computer.

Not quite for hospital staff I guess but for GP doctors it is.

I wonder what sort of wage doctors were on years ago when computers were not about. Back then it would be books and going off what you have learnt at university. Would be interesting to know. Where did their wage stand against the national average then and now.

[*Glenn* 854]

There's less random sex in real hospitals.

(edit) At least that's what she tells me

Thats why I became an Automotive Technician.... and not a Doctor

[martyyn 2]

Student loan doesn't really come into mortgage applications - the bank looks at "take home" pay rather than gross, so for someone with a student loan it is just like they pay 3%(??) more tax.

Really ? The bank is only interested in one thing and thats what you have 'left' to pay them after the IRD has had its pound of flesh. Dont for one second think they will give you any benefit of the doubt.

When my wife and I came back from the UK with a combined student loan debt of 50k it was the first thing they asked us about.

Knowing that we had two kids and wanted a three bedroom house in Wellington they offered us a mortage of 250k....all because they knew that on the salary I could expect to get in NZ and with a student loan requiring I pay 1k a month in penalties alone that I wouldnt be able to pay a mortgage. But where the hell do you find a 3 bed house for 250k in Wellington ?

In the end we were forced to pay a deposit of nearly 100k to get a house that had no insulation, no heating and only two bedrooms requiring another 25k to insulate, heat and convert a small study into a third bedroom. My first job got me 75k a year (nearly twice the national average - which is about 4k a month) but with a mortage of 2.5k and living expenses of 2k a month the student loans went untouched whilst we got further into debt each month just trying to house and feed my family.

Thanks to penalties the student loan is now closer to 80k and the interest rate hikes mean our mortage is now pushing 4k a month. My wife is a full time mother to our children, so has no income, so is not required to make payments on her loan, but the penalties dont stop. The debt gets bigger every month and even more unlikely to be paid.

So is it any wonder people are striking or leaving the country in droves ? Whilst cheese is now more expensive than meat and milk so expensive people give their kids Coke instead, the businesses that provide the essentials are making record profits (supermarkets, telecoms, energy providers are all making billions right now) yet those who provide essential 'life' services get pennies.

Who would seriously want to be a doctor, nurse, teacher, police, fire or ambulance officer in this country at the moment ? It costs tens of thousands to get qualified, and tens of thousands of lost income in the meantime. We were in intensive care with my two day old baby last year and were asked to make a donation before taking a plastic cup for drink of water....whilst our doctor was so tired after coming to the end of his 14 hour shift that he couldnt add 6 hours onto 10pm.

14 hour shifts in intensive care is just wrong. Even the nurses were doing 12 hours and in the environment they are in its just crazy and Im supposed to put my trust in people who are so tired they cant add up ?

So I say good on the junior doctors and good on anyone who has the guts to stand up and say that this isnt right. New Zealand has somehow got all its priorities wrong in the last twenty years.

No where are my cheap flights to Aussie

[M325is 0]

Maybe your with the wrong bank. ASB is good for home loans. Student loans don't come into it.

[Grant 4]

I'm sorry what is a Locum?

I think the junior docs should just wait till next year. They have picked a very bad time to be asking for money, Elections and all.

Maybe they should just all go work over seas, then we can have cheap health care as we would have immigrant doctors. I pay $15 a visit to the GP (instead of $60) because all the doctors there are immigrants. So long as they prescribe the right medication your sweet. And all they do is punch your symptoms into the comp and it tells them what your likely to be experiencing and then tells them what to prescribe you! Sounds like an easy job to me.

Shelley

I find this post rather contradictory from your earlier one. In the post I have quoted you are all for "immigrant" doctors as they are cheaper, yet in your earlier post, in your normal uneducated white trash rhetoric, you were saying that all immigrants should be sent home (or something similar).

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.

Cheers

Grant

[bumpstop325 0]

If anyone's pay is to be increased it should go to SNR Nurses. They are one's supervising and preventing simple mistakes made by some JNR Doctors. This group should also be giving more authority over the care of patients recovery. Having a spin off of reducing the need of JNR doctor hours.

In my opinion, this is the best value for the general public.

[M325is 0]

Shelley

I find this post rather contradictory from your earlier one. In the post I have quoted you are all for "immigrant" doctors as they are cheaper, yet in your earlier post, in your normal uneducated white trash rhetoric, you were saying that all immigrants should be sent home (or something similar).

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.

Cheers

Grant

Immigrants fill the emergency waiting rooms with colds and flu, they should not be there. I didn't say go home. But it would be nice if they did.

On the other hand its ok for immigrants to come into this country if they have a skill in which we need more of.

I don't find this contradicting at all.

[M325is 0]

normal uneducated white trash rhetoric

Crack up!!!

[M325is 0]

Obviously you have not been in emergency ward recently. If you really want me to spell them out its called Polynesians (Islanders, Malaysians, Maoris - Maoris are immigrants too!) I would say around 80% are these immigrants.

Over and out.