Need your opinions on a Track Car

[Hi-Tek 3]

Just trying to figure out which would make the fastest track car if equal amounts were spent.

The S54 conversion would certainly be a lot more of a project, and would it end up being quicker than the GT-R I have my doubts.

Buying E30 M3

Buying S54 Engine

Stand alone ECU (Motec, Auctronic)

Fitting the Engine, gearbox, fabrication etc etc

Rollcage, seats,

Brakes

Suspension

With the GT-R we would be basically buying a slightly modified car 450HP at the wheels (we'd never see that with the S54 not even close).

Rollcage, seats, harnesses

Brakes

Suspension.

We had allowed for an initial outlay of $30,000 (not really factoring in brakes or suspension) I think that's achievable with the GT-R but not even anywhere close with the S54.

We could sell the S14 that we would pull out of the E30 M3 to make back some $$$$ though.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Hi-Tek

[Hi-Tek 3]

Does anyone know what the best official laptimes the Open class cars have done around Pukekohe and Taupo?

[Hi-Tek 3]

Just had this response from an acquaintance of mine from an E30 M3 board (he owns an E30 M3)

He's talking about the two GT-Rs that I have linked in previous posts (the ones we went down to test drive)

Hi Ollie,

The race car has turbos in standard position with standard manifolds and downpipes, so this would usually mean they're same sized to original. If uprated they may be HKS, Nismo or just original turbos with steel impellers. Each would be good for 500 bhp, although not at the wheels, at the flywheel..

TO4S would boost from around 4,500 ish, but too laggy. As it won't run at full potential unless the engine's heavily prepared (In which case you wouldn't run such an old turbo anyways - there are better ones) it's not a good turbo for what you want to do.

Think of it as Power / Weight ratio first. 500 bhp in a car weighing 1,300kg (A stripped out R32 GT-R) is going to take a lot of beating in an E30 M3 - and a lot of money to try and make the same power / weight ratio with N/A. It's also possible to uprate to say 700 bhp with a forged engine build, so right there - there's no way any M3 would stay with a car of such power, provided the turbo(s) are well matched, etc .

Also, you might find the S54 engine will put too much weight over the front of the cross member - which will affect the handling of the M3 negatively especially on tighter corners. This is before you even start to consider the merits of a 4WD system that will send drive to the front wheels when it senses the rears slipping - so the GT-R handles like a RWD car, but corners a lot faster on the limit.

Old Holden Commodore engines (RB30) can be adapted to replace the RB26 engine in the GT-R, which gives more torque, faster turbo spooling, etc.

at the expense of a reduced rev limit due to piston speeds needing to stay safe and the fact that 6 cyl cranks tend to flex at higher revs much more than a 4 cyl's (One of BMW's reasons for not using a 6 cyl in the E30 M3).

R32 GT-R's are still some of the most successful time attack cars in Japan despite the first ones now being 20 years old. They regularly get the fastest times of all in competition.

R32'ss the GT-R with the most potential in it, because it's the lightest and smallest of 3 variants.

We have exported a couple of E30 M3's, mostly because of my personal interest in them, but have been selecting R32 GT-R's in Japan for customers abroad since 1998. We only buy what we'd have ourselves - and this has made us the most widely recommended source of quality imports in Europe (Word of mouth) - Especially GT-R's.

I suspect those you've seen in NZ are nothing like as good as the quality we typically source. Rust is the major enemy for these, as is mechanical wear and abuse. Buying a tired one will cost more in the long term to put right than buying a good one in the first place.

Start with a well prepared good condition road car that's been prepared for track use and go from there rather than buying a car that's been abused and thrashed.

1.3 million Yen all in is an OK budget for a decent example from Japan. Typically we work around the 1.0 million Yen FOB mark, so you'd only pay shipping and duties on top of this.

It would probably take us a month or two to select and find the right car for you - the benefit is we're looking with over a decade of experience in these cars, so we know how they've been used, what the quality of modifications is and where to look for the usual problems.

As you'd be seeing cars for the first time although you're obviously a car enthusiast chances are you probably won't spot the majority of pitfalls - realistically speaking.

All the best,

*******.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Hi-Tek

[Silver Fox 43]

pretty sure Andre's 1.04.022 is Puke best, and Mike's 1.41.428 is Taupo's.

If you're thinking open class BMW by any chance, then E28 turbo has to be the best bang for dollar you can do at the moment. My car weighs in at 1240kg, and with the right turbo option on the M30 can go 450 plus hp at the wheels, making it quite a weapon. Bring on next year.

I have a new M30 n/a for January meet, and hope to have 220 rwhp, and be able to do 1.08 to 1.09 at Puke.

If you compare the E28 weight with the other BMW's, it's pretty light, and as Alpina did the Turbo thing with them they have said they will allow E28 Turbos, got to be good for 1.03 to 1.04 surely at Puke?

Edited November 11, 2009 by Silver Fox

[CamB 48]

David - personal opinion but I think you'd be hard pressed to get an E28 (or E30) handling well enough to make that happen without spending a LOT of $. There'll be a point where extra power gives diminishing returns given the compromises in the pre-E36 chassis...

Ollie: The E46s V8s that RaceFX are building are clearly targeting Open Series leading times, so that probably gives an idea of the level of spec required. An E36 M3 would be the cheapest (and I use that term loosely) way, in my opinion.

If you are thinking about getting a car built up, do a really rough "back of the envelope" on the cost (without contingencies) then double it.

(edit) A further thought, and as a "for instance" - I would expect that *all* (happy to be corrected) the really fast cars have serious race shocks, meaning $6-10k on shocks (just the shocks, not the suspension).

Edited November 11, 2009 by CamB

[*Glenn* 854]

A few people have been talking about building up an E36 Compact. Same wheel base as a coupe and could be stripped out to weigh less than a coupe or sedan. Plenty of options for brakes and suspension mods. Engine wise I'd go for a M54B30...devanos it with cams etc and go link. 5 & 6 speed geabox options and alot of gear available and your also running a later model chassis design. You can pick up a Ti with a knackered motor or gearbox for frigg all. I got mine for $2,500 as a base to start on.

[CamB 48]

It still has the sub-standard rear suspension design though. I'd take the weight of a sedan/coupe in exchange for good rear suspension personally.

[*Glenn* 854]

It still has the sub-standard rear suspension design though. I'd take the weight of a sedan/coupe in exchange for good rear suspension personally.

Camber/caster kits are available. Better bushes, shocks, springs, sway bars, diffs, axles and brakes are all available for them.

Edited November 11, 2009 by *Glenn*

[CamB 48]

I agree it would be a good mid-field car (and personally wouldn't ever aspire to higher).

Edited November 11, 2009 by CamB

[*Glenn* 854]

I agree it would be a good mid-field car (and personally wouldn't ever aspire to higher).

+1 on that. The budget is most of the problem. Unlimited budget would get you higher in field with good driving skills. But still a fun project to get started on.

[hybrid 1043]

Hmmm, a good suspension setup and good power vs weight and excellent / consistant driving will win every time.

Cowan is testiment to this.

Anyways before this gets too off topic, Ollie is after something that will be a kick ass weekend track car with room to build from to move into whatever racing he decides.

[CamB 48]

His questions imply massive scope creep!!

[DRTDVL 0]

i think it was the old BTCC series where they had weight penalties for the winner of the previous race, they worked it out to be something like 20kg (or something like that) was equal to .1 of a second around most of the tracks as a average