Parts list to Turbo M50

[oscar90 0]

So after getting a M50b25...then Linden taking me out in [E30WPN] it has come to one thing, Boosted M50

Am currently researching M50 E30 swaps, and have decided to take my time and turbo it.

Aiming for 8psi Max, without a Link or megasquirt etc preferably. Hoping a air/fuel controller will work, not chasing huge power, just fun (semi reliable ) power and another learning experience. I want responsive power, so hitting boost by 3000RPM or whatever a factory 2.5 turbo begins to boost is the goal, don't want a VTEC sort of set up where you wait forever then get a brief bit of pick up lol, so will be going for something like RB25DET specs turbo wise I supose, next thing to look into!,

I have made a huge list but will narrow it down to the basics that have me wondering ATM, i'm Begining to sift thru lots of internet sh*t, but know we have a few members who are onto it with forced induction.

Manifold

Turbo

Oil lines and fittings, possibly water line

Intercooler and piping

B.O.V

Wastegate (if turbo doesnt have internal wastegate)

New clutch and flywheel

Boost controller

Now for some questions as I havent looked into fueling (along with much more) at the moment,

Car is a '86 E30 325i, and I have a E34 M50b25 motor

1) Is the E34 M50 factory ECU gonna run Boost?

2) Will the E30 2.5 fuel pump be able to keep up the flow for upto 8-ish PSI? (doubting it, replacement options?)

3) Will factory M50b25 injectors cope? (suspect they won't)

3a) What injectors will plug in and work?

3b) Are M50 "high" or "low" impedence injectors?

4) Fuel pressure, I see abit about rising rate fuel pressure regulator, What's the Deal? really need to do my homework on fueling things

5) Will a SAFC or similar talk to BMW stuff and do it's job?

6) Oil Feed, where do you get it from, is it usually tapped into the M50's oil filter housing or something?

7) Oil Drain, is there any disadvantage/advantage to having it draining to the sump plug or should it be tapped into the very top of the sump pan or somewhere else? Ben has a kit For Sale atm which im looking at with oil drain set up to goto sump plug ( http://www.bimmersport.co.nz/forums/index....showtopic=30359 )

Has anyone got some good detailed links to M50 turbo Builds?

Also Theres a good book written by some guy about the basics of turbo's etc, what is it?! It's ment to be really good and a little help/understanding wouldnt go astray my way haha

Cheers heaps

Andrew

[e30ftw 410]

The ECU can slightly adjust but it has no idea when your on / off boost. Thats why low boost can sort of work, but a re-map would be best at the least.

Fuel pump can handle alot actually.

Oil drain should be higher than the oil that is sitting in the sump so it drains properly. Have heard you can tap into the timing cover to do the drain too.

Go on e30tech.com and look in the turbo section there for a few hours.

[pureboiracer 0]

for your oil line run a Tpeice where your oil light switch currently is, you will want about a -6 feed line, and for your return something like a 1/2" or 3/8" and the easiest place to put it is into the sump, as high up the sump as humanly possible... dont go into the sump plug..

try and get a t3/t4 turbo, this will spool nice and quick on a 2.5 and will be big enough for your boost requirements..

if you want to stick with factory computer ATLEAST get a remap. otherwise go aftermarket (which i see you dont want to do)

im pretty sure the injectors are high impedence and if you only want 8psi then factory injectors should be ok, so long as you get it remaped to adjust opening duty cycles etc.. if you need to go bigger i know that holden v6 injectors fit straight in... they are a heap bigger.

rising rate fuel pressure is a must... not sure if this is controlled through the computer on a m50 or not.....????

f.p should handle ok for low boost.

would recommend metal head gasket and arp head studs.

and personally i wouldnt run coolant through my turbo.. but thats just me...

[oscar90 0]

Yeah trying to avoid aftermarket ECU , was hoping a piggyback thing would be a easy solution. ECU will be getting a remap at the very least, it will have something done... Dont wanna spend money then f**k it all.

I Have a autosparky mate so may buy a older version Link and sort a cashie to get wired in... just means more $$ for tuning, but will get a better result at the end of the day , just wanted to know if factory untouched it would run it

Sounding good on the fuel pump side of things then! also injectors

Waterlines have just been mentioned by a friend thru a quick chat on the phone, one less thing to worry about/figure out if I dont need it. It's the sort of little things I was hoping you guys would mention about

Basicly Aiming to not open the motor really, my mechanical skills are basic in comparison to what i'm hoping to achieve haha and I Don't wanna drop the compression heaps, that means more likely to want to run more boost, turns into a on going cycle and money pit from what i've seen, haha throwing myself in the deep end really.

was planning sort of a "+T" job in mind except no RB's here lol, Don't wanna get carried away and outta control, Whats a safe sort of boost level to run on a stock compression M50 anyone? I'm thinking/guessing 8psi may be reaching the Limit

Back to trawling and trademe browsing haha

[thorburn 121]

mapecu would be a good piggyback for this.gets rid of maf sensor and goes to map. if it is a non vanos engine you will be able to adjust spark as well

m50 injectors are high impendance

[CamB 48]

There are injector calculators to help you figure out what you'd need - those commodore ones would probably be enough.

Yeah trying to avoid aftermarket ECU , was hoping a piggyback thing would be a easy solution. ECU will be getting a remap at the very least, it will have something done... Dont wanna spend money then f**k it all.

I Have a autosparky mate so may buy a older version Link and sort a cashie to get wired in... just means more $$ for tuning, but will get a better result at the end of the day , just wanted to know if factory untouched it would run it

A remap isn't much cheaper than a tune, I believe, so you're not saving much and making massive compromises with a re-tune. The factory ECU cant tell when you're under boost, so it doesn't know when to retard timing even if the tuning (and any FMU - a type of fuel pressure regulator) bodges its way around the fueling. Don't try and stuff around with an SAFC - it will still require tuning (so cost) and might not work well.

On fuel pressure regulator, the factory one is most definitely fine with a Link.

I see your biggest problem is the same as the one Luke had when he put his car together - there's not much room for the turbo/manifold/etc.

You should also try and do some research on turbo size - having high compression and a really fast spooling turbo could be a recipe for detonation.

[pureboiracer 0]

you can probs run about 6-7 psi on stock motor, but dont be supprised if you end up doing a h.g in near futer... but hey try it and see..

when i tinkered with a turbo m20 i was going to put a t3-t4 turb on my 325, it would have spooled at abou 3-3200 which would be ideal.. just have to squeeze it in there... im fairly sure thats about the same size as a rb25...

[No name user 379]

im in the middle of doing both a m50 and m42 turbo at the moment

the m50 is getting the following

block will be liquid hard blocked

custom spec pistons

H beam rods

ARP head studs and bottom end studs

crank scraper and custom sump

custom mse intake manifold and exhaust headers

310/294 deg cams mech

metal head gasket

1000cc injectors

and a little turbo called A RX8

and the usual bits blah blah blah

and with all that a MAPECU2 for a piggy back ecu

all this is being done to both engines,why?

cause i can and as for what boost im going to run? boost doesnt mean crap its just a number but output wise im just going to push it till something breaks then make that bit stronger till we get a 6 figure output.

opps forgot the cam spec should allow it to see 10k rpm,the m42 wont spin that hard or push those numbers as its my company hack wagon but ill be happy with 300.

and just cause its a bmw doesnt mean you cant do certain things,

dont just do what makes others happy, do what they will remember

Edited June 16, 2010 by crunchy

[pureboiracer 0]

^ ohh F*#*!!!

[Mike 1]

Manifold

Turbo

Oil lines and fittings, possibly water line

Intercooler and piping

B.O.V

Wastegate (if turbo doesnt have internal wastegate)

New clutch and flywheel

Boost controller

Gauges

Wastepipe/Exhaust

numerous clips/clamps/bolts/brackets that all add up and cost a small fortune

Now for some questions as I havent looked into fueling (along with much more) at the moment,

Car is a '86 E30 325i, and I have a E34 M50b25 motor

1) Is the E34 M50 factory ECU gonna run Boost? not properly

3) Will factory M50b25 injectors cope? (suspect they won't) very unlikely

4) Fuel pressure, I see abit about rising rate fuel pressure regulator, What's the Deal? really need to do my homework on fueling things rising rate pressure reg is 'band aid' for lack of proper ecu. standard one should be fine. rising rate only confuses things

7) Oil Drain, is there any disadvantage/advantage to having it draining to the sump plug or should it be tapped into the very top of the sump pan or somewhere else? Ben has a kit For Sale atm which im looking at with oil drain set up to goto sump plug ( http://www.bimmersport.co.nz/forums/index....showtopic=30359 ) as others have said, as high up the sump as possible

RB25DET maybe a little small, I had one similar on my M10 1.8l and it was boosting plenty early enough, positive pressure before 2500rpm

rising rate fuel pressure is a must... not sure if this is controlled through the computer on a m50 or not.....????

disagree with this, as above it only confuses things. and unless things have changed on modern engines all FPR's I'm aware of are vacuum controlled

[Gaz 1061]

The two books you wanna read are; Turbo Basics by Corky Bell, and 21st Century Performance by Julian Bell.

I'll be following this closely because I've been contemplating doing this to my next car but like you, don't have a huge amount of mechanical skills to do it myself.

[thorburn 121]

crunchy or anyone do you know if the mapecu2 can control vanos or even be used on an engine with vanos and still control ignition?

[oscar90 0]

Holy sh*t Crunchy youll have to keep a thread in the project section updated! that sounds awesome,

Gaz..thanks for naming those books!

After the few replies in here it looks like it's gonna be a slower build than anticipated, need to do abit more than i thought and dont wanna be blowing every pay on parts haha,

lowering the compression, with a metal headgasket or the likes, seems to be the safe way to go, so should really do the ARP head studs...

Will just go t3t4 at this stage(mind will change many times no doubt like with many things on this project), can always change it once it's running, they seem like a ok priced turbo, even better priced if you buy a trademe special haha

Local tuners down here seem to prefer Link, so will eventually buy a older Link i guess, Dont need all the flash latest Link, the older ones were the sh*t when they were released so will be fine, plus they all carry the same sounding angry link limiter...but thats not important haha

Motors a Non Vanos so thats one less thing to worry about

Thanks For all the helpful info so far boys!

[No name user 379]

Holy sh*t Crunchy youll have to keep a thread in the project section updated! that sounds awesome,

Gaz..thanks for naming those books!

After the few replies in here it looks like it's gonna be a slower build than anticipated, need to do abit more than i thought and dont wanna be blowing every pay on parts haha,

lowering the compression, with a metal headgasket or the likes, seems to be the safe way to go, so should really do the ARP head studs...

Will just go t3t4 at this stage(mind will change many times no doubt like with many things on this project), can always change it once it's running, they seem like a ok priced turbo, even better priced if you buy a trademe special hah

first off dont go lowering the compression thats an old school way of doing things i have many customers running over 20psi on pump gas and over 9/1 compression, its all in how you build it and tune it and i can provide plenty of proof over the last 20 plus yrs.

Do yourself a big favour and buy a good turbo not a trademe chinese hand me down rubbish, i refuse to have them in my shop nor sell them and its done my business the world of good for doing so.

Just cause its a bmw doesnt mean you have to do things any different than the rest, you make good horsepower threw being smart and you might be surprised what can be done.

[oscar90 0]

So if I just left the motor uncracked ie NOT do head studs or head gasket, and got it a good professional tune from the likes of spec performance or NZEFi, it should run fine? or am I still gonna run high chances of wrecking something quickly? head gasket or something

What Turbo would you suggest Crunchy, if i was a customer of yours? you seem to know ALOT from what your saying here and what you've said in other threads, so your opinion would begood.

Just want good response and definitley don't want it to choke towards the red line, and i'm not chasing big power like Luke was with E30WPN haha my budgets not that big, just want something a little turbo powered fun haha

[No name user 379]

So if I just left the motor uncracked ie NOT do head studs or head gasket, and got it a good professional tune from the likes of spec performance or NZEFi, it should run fine? or am I still gonna run high chances of wrecking something quickly? head gasket or something

What Turbo would you suggest Crunchy, if i was a customer of yours? you seem to know ALOT from what your saying here and what you've said in other threads, so your opinion would begood.

Just want good response and definitley don't want it to choke towards the red line, and i'm not chasing big power like Luke was with E30WPN haha my budgets not that big, just want something a little turbo powered fun haha

itll be eaier to give me a ring or ill be typing for hours, ill pm you my number

[Ben 0]

1) The ecu will run the engine on boost with standard injectors

but you will run out of fuel around 4000rpm.

2) Just get a bigger fuel pump to be safe. You can get a walbro off trademe for about $250

3) No, an upgrade is definitely necessary.

3a) M52B28 injectors (Pink top) are about 240cc and are a direct replacement.

S50B30 are also plug in and have slightly more flow than B28 ones.

Most Bmw/Bosch Injectors will plug in and there is plenty of flow charts for injectors

on the net.

Ive also used 270cc jecs/nissan rb20det injectors.

They required some modification to fit and did work though I found them much too big

to use with the standard ECU as they over fueled to the point where I couldnt

rev above idle.

3b) They are high impedance.

4) IMO they are a hassle just use the standard M50 one.

5) Yes they work with BMWs. I have one installed in my car ATM.

The only problem tuning with SAFC is the ignition timing will be affected.

You can slightly counter this by using a 540i MAF or by modifying the standard MAF

by pulling the guts out of it and fitting it to a 4inch pipe though this is still not ideal.

(I can go into much more detail regarding the SAFC if need be.)

6) As DRTE30 said, the oil feed tees off the back of the oil light switch behind the oil

filter housing and does not require any drilling or tapping.

7) Draining the oil to the sump plug is far from ideal but it does work as long as the

drain stays on a downward angle all the way to the sump.

The oil does rest in the pipe but will only sit as high as the highest level of oil in the sump

which will 9/10 times be much lower than the turbo.

The other way around it is to drill the sump and get a fitting welded on

which I would recommend as the best option.

As for the turbo I used an TO4E with ex .63 A/R and 38mm turbosmart WG.

I got 8psi by 2500rpm easy.

From my research 8psi should be fine on the standard engine but that would be max.

Ill get some pics of my kit uploaded soon Im just having trouble locating my camera

at present.

[crshbndct 0]

blah

cause i can and as for what boost im going to run? boost doesnt mean crap its just a number but output wise im just going to push it till something breaks then make that bit stronger till we get a 6 figure output.

blah

holy sh*t!!!! 100,000hp!!!!

thats like 40,000 per litre!

i look forward to seeing it!

[No name user 379]

holy sh*t!!!! 100,000hp!!!!

thats like 40,000 per litre!

i look forward to seeing it!

ah many thanks for pointing out the typo, lets try 4 figures shell we

[[email protected] 0]

So it's possible to get the stock M50 ECU re-mapped?

Anyone in Auckland do this?

[crshbndct 0]

ah many thanks for pointing out the typo, lets try 4 figures shell we

yeah was just pullin ya tit.

hey was wondering if i could chat with you via pm or phone regarding my gf's car. the turbo she has currently just doesnt cut it. (she has a mitsi tc06 turbo)

[No name user 379]

yeah was just pullin ya tit.

hey was wondering if i could chat with you via pm or phone regarding my gf's car. the turbo she has currently just doesnt cut it. (she has a mitsi tc06 turbo)

is it on a starion or a cordia?

the tco6 isnt the greatest turbo but can be changed and made into a tdo6

[Ben 0]

im in the middle of doing both a m50 and m42 turbo at the moment

the m50 is getting the following

block will be liquid hard blocked

custom spec pistons

H beam rods

ARP head studs and bottom end studs

crank scraper and custom sump

custom mse intake manifold and exhaust headers

310/294 deg cams mech

metal head gasket

1000cc injectors

and a little turbo called A RX8

and the usual bits blah blah blah

and with all that a MAPECU2 for a piggy back ecu

all this is being done to both engines,why?

cause i can and as for what boost im going to run? boost doesnt mean crap its just a number but output wise im just going to push it till something breaks then make that bit stronger till we get a 6 figure output.

opps forgot the cam spec should allow it to see 10k rpm,the m42 wont spin that hard or push those numbers as its my company hack wagon but ill be happy with 300.

and just cause its a bmw doesnt mean you cant do certain things,

dont just do what makes others happy, do what they will remember

MAPECUU2 wont work.

You cant control timing on an M50 with it

and even if you could, there is no way you could scale the

injectors down over 5 times the size of the originals.

Ive emailed them about M50 application and this is what they had to say...

Hi Ben,

We cannot say we have come across another installation the same, the only one that is similar was a turbo charged M30 engine in a 535i. BMW engines are very knock resistant so you will probably be OK but you may need to retard timing a little. We assume the E36 uses coil on plug ignition which means the MAP-ECU2 cannot control ignition timing. We have to intercept the signals between the ECU and igniters. BMW ECU's have built in igniters driving the ignition coils directly

Regards,

MAP-ECU Sales

Power and longevity has alot to do with the state of your tune so

with such an epic engine build, why is it you choose to use such a

sh*t tuning platform like the MAPECU2?

Budget constraints?

For the price of a new MAPECU2 you could get a 2nd hand link

which would be ten times better in the long run.

Also, just out of interest, why have you chosen to use the m50b25 over

the m52b28 or s50b30?

[thorburn 121]

m52b28 is alluminium block. not so boost friendly

[CamB 48]

why is it you choose to use such a sh*t tuning platform like the MAPECU2?

Geez, I hope he doesn't take that personally (no really, actually personally).

In this case, you might just have to assume he knows what he's doing.