E46 problem starting

[arcon 3]

So after washing my 2001 320i it now won't start lol. It whines on ignition but can't quite fire up. I would usually take it to Burger but he doesn't do call outs AFAIK. I'm in East Coast Bays, who would you guys recommend who can come see it?

 

[Allanw 1071]

Is it cranking slower than normal?

 

Did you have the radio on while washing?

 

You sure the battery isn't flat It doesn't take much for it to result in a non-start.

[arcon 3]

Tbh its an unusual sound that I'm not familiar with, like it just whirs fast lol, and there's no  ooomph noises that you usually get when it attempts to ignite if hat makes sense. Everything was off while washing... battery was replaced 2 years ago would be surprised if that's it... but I'm not mechanically minded so not sure how to check the battery anyway.

And yes it has petrol in it

Edited June 29, 2017 by arcon

[allan 295]

Is it getting to the right place's though if it is a fuel problem.Items that I know of which could course trouble fuel pump. If you turn the key to position one or two but don't crank it can you hear the fuel pump working it is situated under the rear seat you might need a extra pair of hands to help?. On e46s these can give up the ghost at any time and with no warning. Has the fuel filter been changed these can fail or become blocked. On your fuel rail their is a bleed valve hold it open and see if fuel is pushed out as you crank the engine be careful doing this. Have a look at the two links they show the fuel system might be of some help. 

http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E46-Sedan/Europe/325i-M54/R-N/oct2000/browse/fuel_preparation_system/

http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E46-Sedan/Europe/325i-M54/R-N/oct2000/browse/fuel_supply/

[Allanw 1071]

Was the engine cold, you started it for about 20 seconds or so, to back up etc, then turned it off and left it sitting???

If yes:

It may have pumped the lifters up and is holding valves open - I can make our E39 M54 do it. I push it out of the garage to wash it. If I wash it, then start it, drive in and switch off - gauranteed no start, and it sounds like no compression (whiiiiirs, but no firing). Extended cranking and it slowly starts to get compression and fires.

If you run it longer, it doesn't happen.

In ours, once it's done it, you hold the throttle wide open, and crank it for quite a while and it will start up rough then get better. Foot gas on the throttle means it shouldn't inject much fuel.

I've had a couple of cars that do it... although ones used to wait until the end of my road, and would stall, with no compression and I'd have to sit there cranking for about a minute! (company car!)

 

[arcon 3]

5 hours ago, Allanw said:

Was the engine cold, you started it for about 20 seconds or so, to back up etc, then turned it off and left it sitting???

 

Yeah that's what happened. I washed it out in the cold, then drove it back in in about 10 secs and powered down. As you say it whirs but doesn't attempt to fire.

So to clarify I should just keep it whirring until it starts...? Foot on the gas..?

[Allanw 1071]

Yeah - pretty much. (I'm makiing some assumptons here, like the starter is actually engaging with the engine and turning it etc)

 

It's not really good for the starter or battery, but foot flat down, crank it for 20 seconds or so at a time then give it a little rest. once it starts to run a bit, you let off the throttle, but may have to use the throttle to keep it running.

If it doesn't start running, but you can hear the compression coming back (the RRRrrrRRRRrrrRRRRrrr-like nrmal noise, then try crankiing with your foot off the gas and see if it runs)

If it runs, but rough: after about 30 to 60 seconds at about 1500 rpm, shut it off completely, then immediatly restart, if it's smooth, take it for a gentle run up to temp before parking it.

 

Then never do it again

 

My understadning is that the short run, on cold/thick oil, creates really high oil pressure in the system, then shutting it off means that oil pushes into the lifters and they pump up, stoppng the valves closing properly??? Hotwire on here said he see's it fairly often on AA call outs.

Basically any time you start the car, you want it to runs for a couple of minutes at least, or wash it after it's been driven, then put it away before it cools all the way down.

[hotwire 352]

Just to clarify Allan. Rather than lifters - it will be a flooded engine - fuel.

As you relate to - I go out to this issue on AA call outs frequently, Had a couple last week.

When questioning the owner - I can always attribute it back to the last time the engine was running - usually caused by either starting -backing out to wash then starting again & into garage or starting to move the car to access another.  Car will then not start the next day. In both these cases the engine has probably only run for a minute max. It is in cold start mode with fuel enrichment (as in years ago with a choke) injector on time is increased to allow more fuel for cold running, the engine though is still stone cold after this short run time. The excess fuel sits in the engine. If it then doesn't catch first crank the next start - the problem just compounds - injectors are still squirting fuel as you crank.

Yes crank on full throttle - allows max air flow through the engine to help dissipate the fuel. There is quite a knack to this though & a "feel" for the method to get it to start - every engine seems to react differently - not all will start on wide open throttle. Some can be tricky to catch, sometimes I have even had to revert to removing spark plugs to dry them.

Worst would be the Mazda RX8 - I think i have started every one in town. They literally dump fuel in when cold & would be the easiest car to flood.

People look at me in surprise when i suggest the issue but once explained they understand. Have to say - I have never been back to the same person twice. I always suggest - it the engine is started - let it warm up for 4 -5 minutes before turning off.

[*Glenn* 854]

8 hours ago, hotwire said:

Just to clarify Allan. Rather than lifters - it will be a flooded engine - fuel.

As you relate to - I go out to this issue on AA call outs frequently, Had a couple last week.

When questioning the owner - I can always attribute it back to the last time the engine was running - usually caused by either starting -backing out to wash then starting again & into garage or starting to move the car to access another.  Car will then not start the next day. In both these cases the engine has probably only run for a minute max. It is in cold start mode with fuel enrichment (as in years ago with a choke) injector on time is increased to allow more fuel for cold running, the engine though is still stone cold after this short run time. The excess fuel sits in the engine. If it then doesn't catch first crank the next start - the problem just compounds - injectors are still squirting fuel as you crank.

Yes crank on full throttle - allows max air flow through the engine to help dissipate the fuel. There is quite a knack to this though & a "feel" for the method to get it to start - every engine seems to react differently - not all will start on wide open throttle. Some can be tricky to catch, sometimes I have even had to revert to removing spark plugs to dry them.

Worst would be the Mazda RX8 - I think i have started every one in town. They literally dump fuel in when cold & would be the easiest car to flood.

People look at me in surprise when i suggest the issue but once explained they understand. Have to say - I have never been back to the same person twice. I always suggest - it the engine is started - let it warm up for 4 -5 minutes before turning off.

Same here we have this occur quite frequently. My wife's Suzuki will also do this if I have to move it from the garage without letting it run to get off auto enrichment or run it for a minute at about 2,000 rpm

[Allanw 1071]

On 2/07/2017 at 10:21 PM, hotwire said:

Just to clarify Allan. Rather than lifters - it will be a flooded engine - fuel.

Our one seriously has an uneven lack of compresson when it does it - Someone said it had to be the lifters? My Subaru wouldn't stop until the end of my road, and it had NO compression when I cranked! I thought it had broken a cambelt again (that car broke 3!)

 

Anyway - EVERYbody needs to run the engine longer!

[hotwire 352]

1 hour ago, Allanw said:

Our one seriously has an uneven lack of compresson when it does it - Someone said it had to be the lifters? My Subaru wouldn't stop until the end of my road, and it had NO compression when I cranked! I thought it had broken a cambelt again (that car broke 3!)

 

Anyway - EVERYbody needs to run the engine longer!

What I am referring to, as Glenn is too, is a flooded engine due to premature shutdown while in enrichment mode. Certainly I have not struck over pressurised lifters in this situation. What i am referring to occurs in a conventional tappet system or hydralic lifters, makes no difference.

I have only ever seen/heard M50> engines with noisy lifters. BUT there are no doubt exceptions...

Subaru - strange situation, but it sounds like a different scenario to what i am describing.

[Olaf 3317]

in terms of washing a car... I always take a car for a drive, after washing.  Get rid of any water sitting on the brakes, move the car so that any water sitting in drainage channels has a chance to drain in a different position, and (most importantly) allows the car to warm up and dry out. 

On 7/2/2017 at 0:07 PM, Allanw said:

Yeah - pretty much. (I'm makiing some assumptons here, like the starter is actually engaging with the engine and turning it etc)

 

It's not really good for the starter or battery, but foot flat down, crank it for 20 seconds or so at a time then give it a little rest. once it starts to run a bit, you let off the throttle, but may have to use the throttle to keep it running.

If it doesn't start running, but you can hear the compression coming back (the RRRrrrRRRRrrrRRRRrrr-like nrmal noise, then try crankiing with your foot off the gas and see if it runs)

If it runs, but rough: after about 30 to 60 seconds at about 1500 rpm, shut it off completely, then immediatly restart, if it's smooth, take it for a gentle run up to temp before parking it.

 

I can get these same symptoms on my Volvo 855-T5 when there's a vacuum leak.

[arcon 3]

On 2/07/2017 at 0:07 PM, Allanw said:

It's not really good for the starter or battery, but foot flat down, crank it for 20 seconds or so at a time then give it a little rest.
 

Thanks that fixed it... I'lll make sure to always leave it running for a few mins lol.