jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 17, 2020 Below is a pic of the B4 installation kit that FCPeuro offer on their site. You can buy everything separately but easier for me to buy a complete kit rather than select a few parts and then find I need a part I haven't bought ? So is the full kit the recommended deal or is it overkill for a 90,000km refresh ?? Cheers... PS: Kit is listed for use with non-Msport B4's, but I am assuming that the same kit could be used with Msport B4's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbmiester 923 Report post Posted November 18, 2020 3 hours ago, jon dee said: Below is a pic of the B4 installation kit that FCPeuro offer on their site. You can buy everything separately but easier for me to buy a complete kit rather than select a few parts and then find I need a part I haven't bought ? So is the full kit the recommended deal or is it overkill for a 90,000km refresh ?? Cheers... PS: Kit is listed for use with non-Msport B4's, but I am assuming that the same kit could be used with Msport B4's. If you are going B4 then yes this is the way to go but its just stock replacement twin tube shocks, . I think you are over complicating the B8, B6 thing. M Sport springs B6, simple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 18, 2020 Maybe so, but last time I decided to upgrade the suspension on my car it took three sets of shocks and three sets of springs to get a result that I was happy with. This time I aim to do it once and get it right I want to go with a factory endorsed combination which leaves me with the B4 Msport version or possibly the Bilstein/Eibach B12 Pro Kit. The fact that B4's are not monotube is no problem... Konis are twin tube and they work OK, and I have no doubt that Bilstein can also build a decent twin tube. Despite plumbing the depths of the internet I have not been able to find any information on the available working stroke of a correctly installed B6. That is, without cutting down the internal bumpstop. Regardless... the B6 is designed to work with non-Msport springs and if you use them with Msport springs with a (say) 30mm lower ride height, you are 30mm closer to the bumpstops. If the car is more than 30mm down then you are even closer to the bumpstops. So who cares ? Well I do. If you have 90mm of available stroke and it was assigned 60mm for bump and 30mm for rebound, with a 30mm drop you now have 30mm for bump and 60mm for rebound. For normal round town driving no problem... works fine. But brake hard into a corner and you are riding on the bumpstop on the outside wheel, and that does not do much for your handling. Sure you can live with it and no doubt thousands of B6 users drive on Msport or lowering springs every day. Luckily, I believe the internal bumpstops are quite soft. Only if I put down the money for monotubes I'd like to have the shocks sitting in the optimum part of their stroke as Bilstein intended. Just saying... Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbmiester 923 Report post Posted November 18, 2020 21 minutes ago, jon dee said: Maybe so, but last time I decided to upgrade the suspension on my car it took three sets of shocks and three sets of springs to get a result that I was happy with. This time I aim to do it once and get it right I want to go with a factory endorsed combination which leaves me with the B4 Msport version or possibly the Bilstein/Eibach B12 Pro Kit. The fact that B4's are not monotube is no problem... Konis are twin tube and they work OK, and I have no doubt that Bilstein can also build a decent twin tube. Despite plumbing the depths of the internet I have not been able to find any information on the available working stroke of a correctly installed B6. That is, without cutting down the internal bumpstop. Regardless... the B6 is designed to work with non-Msport springs and if you use them with Msport springs with a (say) 30mm lower ride height, you are 30mm closer to the bumpstops. If the car is more than 30mm down then you are even closer to the bumpstops. So who cares ? Well I do. If you have 90mm of available stroke and it was assigned 60mm for bump and 30mm for rebound, with a 30mm drop you now have 30mm for bump and 60mm for rebound. For normal round town driving no problem... works fine. But brake hard into a corner and you are riding on the bumpstop on the outside wheel, and that does not do much for your handling. Sure you can live with it and no doubt thousands of B6 users drive on Msport or lowering springs every day. Luckily, I believe the internal bumpstops are quite soft. Only if I put down the money for monotubes I'd like to have the shocks sitting in the optimum part of their stroke as Bilstein intended. Just saying... Cheers... Why dont you just send Bilstein an email then. I read the difference in an E90 between M sport and standard is 17mm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 That may be on the money as I found dimensions posted by someone who actually had a BMW B6 and B8 strut side by side. According to him the body length was exactly the same and the "difference in length" that is often quoted is only how far the spear extends out of the body. His measurements show a difference of 19.3mm in spear extension and that the available stroke is 15.8mm less on the B8. Also shows that the stroke before the spear hits the bumpstop on the B8 is 76.2mm From what I read it appears that the bumpstops are considered to be a working part of the suspension. They allow at least a further inch of bump stroke and are available in several compression rates (typically between 100lb/inch and 250lb/inch) so tuneable. All of which is fcuking interesting but contains too many variables for further theorising So based on anecdotal evidence I'd say yes you can use the B6 with Msport suspension and yes you can use the B8 with Msport suspension. Either one will be an upgrade over the OEM shocks. Results and ride height may vary. I'm 95% decided on adding the B4 kit plus the M3 arms as a first step. Just waiting to see how the order for the arms works out before placing an order for the B4 kit. That will pretty much kill my pocket money for this year, so I'd like to get a handle on the total cost before committing. Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 Found the mother lode According to BMW these are the official ride heights. USA cars have different heights but (thankfully) we are not in the US so I have not included them here. Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbmiester 923 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 Looks like 16mm difference, 17mm was pretty close. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 19, 2020 Yeah... and nice to have some reference information to let anyone work out how low his/her car will be with a particular lowering kit. Now if only the companies that sell "lowering springs" could publish the spring rates... Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbmiester 923 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 12 hours ago, jon dee said: Yeah... and nice to have some reference information to let anyone work out how low his/her car will be with a particular lowering kit. Now if only the companies that sell "lowering springs" could publish the spring rates... Cheers... Stock135i Front: 120 lb/in Rear : 350 lb/ine90 ZSP or e92 Front: 145 lb/in Rear: 460 lb/ine90/e92 BMW Performance (Calculated given that the material of this spring is the same as the ZSP springs) Front: 195 lb/in Rear: 505 lb/inM3 Front: 160 lb/in Rear: 550 lb/inAftermarketKW v1-v3 (non M3) Front: 190-256 lb/in (progressive average) Rear: 545-570 lb/in (progressive average)KW Street Comfort Front: 286 lb/in Rear: 572 lb/inKW Clubsport (non M3) Front: 400 lb/in Rear: 570 lb/inM3 KW v3 Front: 285 lb/in Rear: 630 lb/inM3 KW Clubsport Front: 508 lb/in Rear: 800 lb/inBilstein PSS10 Front: 385 lb/in Rear: 615 lb/inEibach Pro-kit Front: 148 lb/in Rear: 456 lb/inEibach Multi-Pro-R1 Front: 200 lb/in Rear: 500 lb/inEibach Pro Street S Front: 134 - 271 lb/in (Progressive) Rear: 456 lb/in (Linear)HKS Hypermax Front: 448 lb/in Rear: 504 lb/inTein Stech Front: 191 lb/in Rear: 593 lb/inTein Euro Damper System Front: 280 lb/in Rear: 392 lb/inTein ss-p Front: 392 lb/in Rear: 671 lb/inJIC-Magic Cross Front: 450 lb/in Rear: 674 lb/inTC Kline Coils Front: 350 lb/in Rear: 700 lb/inHP Autowerks Coilover System Front: Custom Tailored 300-500 lb/in (Contact HP Autowerks) Rear: Custom Tailored 500-1000 lb/in (Contact HP Autowerks) __________________ 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 20, 2020 WOW !!!! Impressive collection considering I have only seen rates quoted a couple of times in forum discussions about standard shocks and springs. Coilover vendors are more forthcoming as they usually have a range of springs on offer. Going to have to take a look at where the springs are located on the back axle to see why the rear rates are so much higher than the fronts Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 23, 2020 I was looking at how close the Eibach Pro Kit spring rates were to the E92 rates, and it got me thinking how strange it was that Bilstein did not offer the B8 for the E92 when they offered the B12 kit for the E92. Seemed illogical to me. So I checked to see if the B8's in the B12 kit were any different to the B8's listed for the E90 sedan. Bilstein said nope... they are identical. So then I asked them why they didn't offer the B8's for the E92 with Msport and they said... WUT !!!... but we do offer the B8 for the E92 with Msport and sent me the attached screenshot. So it seems that 98% of the sales outlets for Bilstein are still working off an old application listing (as I was), one that does not list B8 for the 2011-2007 E92 with Msport. Downside of clarifying this is that now I have to reopen my internal struggle between being sensible and getting the B4's or succumb to the modifiers curse of wanting the high performance shocks to go with my surgical steel socket set Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bennyboy 199 Report post Posted November 24, 2020 19 hours ago, jon dee said: I was looking at how close the Eibach Pro Kit spring rates were to the E92 rates, and it got me thinking how strange it was that Bilstein did not offer the B8 for the E92 when they offered the B12 kit for the E92. Seemed illogical to me. So I checked to see if the B8's in the B12 kit were any different to the B8's listed for the E90 sedan. Bilstein said nope... they are identical. So then I asked them why they didn't offer the B8's for the E92 with Msport and they said... WUT !!!... but we do offer the B8 for the E92 with Msport and sent me the attached screenshot. So it seems that 98% of the sales outlets for Bilstein are still working off an old application listing (as I was), one that does not list B8 for the 2011-2007 E92 with Msport. Downside of clarifying this is that now I have to reopen my internal struggle between being sensible and getting the B4's or succumb to the modifiers curse of wanting the high performance shocks to go with my surgical steel socket set Cheers... enough pussy-footing, go straight to PSS10's, you won't regret it! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 24, 2020 16 hours ago, Bennyboy said: enough pussy-footing, go straight to PSS10's, you won't regret it! I'll have to ask my mother first... ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 27, 2020 Yeah... well... hmmmm... I gave mum a detailed explanation of all my research and pointed out the advantages and disadvantages of all the different and competing options. When I finished, realising that she had nodded off, I gave her poke in the eye with a sharp stick that I keep handy for that purpose. Upon waking she lobbed her empty glass in the direction of my head and blurted out "Get the black ones you f**kwit !!". I have always admired mother's ability to instantly get to the crux of important technical matters. So black ones it is Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olaf 3317 Report post Posted November 27, 2020 Why would you buy Bilstein B4s instead of Sachs OEM? For e60's, Sachs have alloy housings, B4's are steel... price is within about $5 each. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbmiester 923 Report post Posted November 27, 2020 Yep have to agree with Olaf I think B4s are a slightly retrograde step. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbmiester 923 Report post Posted November 27, 2020 Btw you are welcome to drive my 335i with Konis and Tein S tech springs, pretty firm. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 27, 2020 Yusss... appreciate the comments and the offer. And I know there are many other options for shocks and springs to suit individual taste and performance goals. Seeing as I am quite happy with the OEM spring rates and ride height, I'm not looking to change springs. For shocks I like adjectives like supple and smooth rather than stiff or firm, so although I was tempted to go for a "performance shock" upgrade for a while, that really ran contra to my goal of restoring/refreshing the OEM ride. I have no complaints about the Sachs (steel) OEM shocks and struts. However I see that there seems to be some consensus in the euro car community, that the B4's offer a small step up in performance without affecting ride quality. Several reputable specialist aftermarket parts suppliers claim that the B4's are valved around 10% stiffer (yes I know what I said above) than OEM and that they should be considered as a minor upgrade. There is also a model specific version for the E92 with Msport suspension. I am also naive enough to believe that Bilstein may have done their homework so that the B4 valving improves handling without affecting ride quality. Twintube construction offers some advantages over inverted monotube in low speed (around town) ride quality, and that is where my car is mostly used. So while my choice may not be to everyone's taste, I'm going to try the B4's and see how I like them. Worst outcome is I have to buy a B12 kit and drive faster Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbmiester 923 Report post Posted November 28, 2020 This is my 335i on Tein S Tech Springs Koni adjustable and M3 arms front and rear. The front setup uses E30 Top Hats to raise the ride height as the S Tech springs are quite low. The rear uses 10mm hard rubber spacers in the spring cavities. Suspension is firm but surprisingly its not harsh and is daily drivable, and I live where the roads are crap. The M3 control arm conversion reduces the intial understeer noticeably and all but eliminates it at medium speeds and up. Turn in is very positive and precise. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted November 28, 2020 Nice car If you are rolling on 18" wheels and you get a chance, can you measure from the bottom centre edge of the rim up to the wheel arch directly above. I'd like to see how they compare with mine seeing as visually there does not seem to be that much difference. Maybe you are a few mm lower at the rear but the front looks about the same. Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olaf 3317 Report post Posted November 28, 2020 7 hours ago, jon dee said: I have no complaints about the Sachs (steel) OEM shocks and struts. However I see that there seems to be some consensus in the euro car community, that the B4's offer a small step up in performance without affecting ride quality. Several reputable specialist aftermarket parts suppliers claim that the B4's are valved around 10% stiffer (yes I know what I said above) than OEM and that they should be considered as a minor upgrade. There is also a model specific version for the E92 with Msport suspension. in e60 land that's certainly not the case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted December 9, 2020 Been looking at installing the new control arms, shocks, struts, rotors and pads myself as something to do over Xmas. Looked at a few DIY videos and there doesn't seem to be anything too extreme involved. I have basic tools, jack, jackstands and springs compressors, and I have done the same type of work on my Corolla a few times. So is there anything beyond standard DIY skills required ?? Any traps for young players Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herbmiester 923 Report post Posted December 9, 2020 Install the Arm with the solid bushing at ride height. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted December 9, 2020 Got it... same deal as TRD hard rubber bushings on the Corolla. Need any kind of separator for getting the arms out of the car ? And who thought it was a good idea to put the firewall brace over the top of the strut tower ??? Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted January 2, 2021 Decided I needed a bit of hands on learning experience with the e92 so I made a start on changing out the rear shocks. Discovered that my meager collection of hand tools did not have any metric ring +open end spanners that would work for a couple of the items that needed holding or tightening. So I had a dig into the lower strata of my toolbox and discovered these helpful items. What appears to be a 5/8" AF offset ring spanner that was perfect for the 16mm nut on top of the shock and a 5/16" Whitworth (?) open ender that slipped in and held the 15mm spanner flats on the bottom of the shock. I have a decent socket set that was all I really needed for my Corolla, but it looks like its time to go shopping for some new spanners 😉 Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
