Fined last night

[Andre3000 55]

So i drove through a drink driving stop last night, and passed again (as i do not drink and drive), and wouldn't you know it i get pulled to the side AGAIN "just a random check sir", bullshit.

Anyway after giving my car a thorough inspection because there HAS to be something up if a white bmw is driving through newmarket on a friday night, they finally decide to fine me for "operating a modified vehicle that was not certified", and they also failed again to notice my illegal plates.

Basically the distance between centre of the rear hub and rear wheel arch is too small.

Good on the police for finding fault. Kinda sucks because i had no idea that my ride height/springs were illegal, since i bought it that way and the car received a warrant of fitness with those same springs installed.

Anyone know of a low volume certifier in the central auckland region?

I figure if i get it cert'd today and send a letter to the police, then maybe, just maybe, there might be someone reasonable enough to understand the reality of the situation.

[3series 0]

any idea what type of springs? I take it the rubber spring pads are in there? Could get some thicker ones off tardme. IIRC certing isnt very cheap.

Edited May 29, 2009 by bmw3

[Guest FrantiC]

That is BS dude. They don't calculate ride height from your arch to center of your wheel. That is how they cert your vehicle, They can fine you if it is more than 5% + or - from the stated height on your cert plate. If it is not certed, then you don't have to worry unless your car is under the 100mm ride height, from lowest point of your cars structural / suspension.

You shouldn't need a cert. I carry around the full LVV cert requirements cos I got fed up with cops saying I needed a cert (my cars way lower than yours but still legal) as you are allowed to lower your car with shortened shocks and springs SO LONG AS it's over 100mm still. If it's under 100mm, you would need to cert, if you had coil overs you would need a cert.

FYI, LVV cert is $450. And it takes a couple weeks.... They check your car over then they send away and you gotta wait for the plate to come and get riveted to your car..

Edited May 29, 2009 by FrantiC

[Andre3000 55]

I just rang John from John Brett Technology and he said to come over and he'll have a look. By the sound of it its complete and utter bullshit. Hes going to write a letter as a LVV certifier and state that the car is NOT too low.

I know people are against ftp posts, but jesus they're getting slack if they dont know the rules they're enforcing.

[3 SERIES 93]

Basically the distance between centre of the rear hub and rear wheel arch is too small.

Is there even such a rule?

Always thought it was no lower than 100mm from the lowest point of the chasis.

[Andre3000 55]

Is there even such a rule?

Always thought it was no lower than 100mm from the lowest point of the chasis.

Yeah i figured too, but the popo were so sure that they were right it was infuriating.

[3series 0]

so has your car been ordered off the road? green stickered?

[Guest FrantiC]

Get them to show you their little booklet they carry around for car requirements. You will get off this, no doubt. Alot of the problem is the cops don't fully understand the law they are enforcing, they all seem to thnik "CAR LOWERED , GOTTA HAVE A CERT. IF NOT THEN IL WHIP OUT ME FINE BOOK".

I've always fought it. I won most times cos I carried around my LVV cert requirements prinout (download the .pdf and print it out lol).

[DRTDVL 0]

Just send him these pics and ask that all Holden Calais (VP model) owners and Citroen CX and BX owners please be send illegal height notices also.

Edited May 29, 2009 by DRTDVL

[Guest FrantiC]

Just send him these pics and ask that all Holden Calais (VP model) owners and Citroen CX and BX owners please be send illegal height notices also.

LOL

[DRTDVL 0]

Ohhh and you would like every Citroen DS removed from the road as this is obviously HIGHLY ILLEGAL!

[Apex 693]

That commodore is sweet! Looks so nice with the VX wheels.

That’s what I was thinking too Heath, the Police have clearly got it wrong. Its not there fault they are not adequately trained on the rules, they are getting a hard time to crack down on the boy racers is all, I guaranty if a 50 year old chap was driving it instead of a car load of teens they wouldn’t have given it a second thought.

Just write them a letter. It will get thrown out. Not the end of the world.

[bravo 35]

Once you have it sorted print our a copy of the rules for you glovebox. I have a wee folder of stuff in there, but havn't yet needed it. Beside the fact that the method of measurement was not correct, what's to say they weren't reading the factory distance for pre f/l not f/l which has lower guards anyway???

To fail an e30 for too low at the rear, you'd have to be running no springs at all. There's not alot back there that can fail the 100mm rule.

[westy 614]

Its not there fault they are not adequately trained on the rules,

Wait...What??

Edited May 30, 2009 by westy

[bravo 35]

Yeah, its very un just that they can order you to jump through hoops and spend money proving that the fine was unlawful. I'd invoice the PD for the costs. If you were really keen you could possibly make a police harassment case out of it, but usually not worth the agro.

[kerrynzl 3]

Basically the distance between centre of the rear hub and rear wheel arch is too small.

Only the rear wheel arches?

If anybody knows anything about springs they'll understand that a spring NEVER loses its rating or stiffness.

Over a period of time [ spring cycles ] a spring loses its "setting" or height.

There is no offence as far as I know for driving a vehicle with sagging springs [ or driving with bags of ballast in the boot etc ]

If your springs are uncut and have standard part number springs , I would defend this [ because of high km's caused the springs to sag ]

Use the sarcastic defence notion of being "prosecuted" because of the weight in the boot. [ you can calculate the Kg's needed for this ]

To anyone who wants to lower their car

I have always been in favour of resetting stock springs [ never cutting them ] firstly the ride quality is the same as stock.

When a spring gets re-set by a springmaker the temperature is at such a low temperature and usually the original paint is intact.

to me this is a prefered option to requiring an ugly tag being rivoted to my car

[bravo 35]

Kerry, good points, but almost all of the commonly available quality lowering springs for e30 maintain legal ride height. The time and cost of development the manufacturers put into these springs would give me far more confidence of performance than having sock springs reset.

Only very very low setups require a cert for lowering, and these need to be so significantly stiffer to prevent bottoming out that resetting of stock springs is unsatisfactory IMO.

On another note, if your springs sag to the point where any part of the suspension or chassis is less than 100mm off the ground when the vehicle is unloaded, it will fail a WOF.

PS. Technically under the rules resetting of the stock springs requires a cert anyway, so you'd have to have the ugly tag regardless. Only unmodified OEM or replacement springs that are captive in unmodified spring seats with chassis and suspension and steering components >100mm off the ground do not require a cert. Heating or otherwise modifying OEM springs requires a cert.

[Andre3000 55]

Had a good chat to john, and hes written a letter, stamped and signed, stating that he, as a llv certifier, can find no fault in the car especially ride height, and that no offense was committed.

Going to attach it to a letter to the correspondence office, and request they remove the infringement notice.

Failing that i'll get a court date.

Should i attach a picture?

[3 SERIES 93]

Should i attach a picture?

Nah, it wont mean jack to them!

Let us know how you get on.

[Guest FrantiC]

They could probably turn around to you and say you changed the springs, took it in to get your check and letter, then put back in whatever you had when you got pulled over (trust me they DO assume this).

[CamB 48]

Its an interesting one - FrantiC's right, the police were clearly just a little confused. They know they need to measure that gap, but not that they only do it when the car IS CERTED (to make sure you are within the stupidly small certed limit). Even then they're wrong - the cert measurement is ground to arch. It's just a way of measuring the height.

Not certed, the 100mm rule applies. Exhaust and body kit don't count either:

- the springs or shock absorbers are direct replacements, and:

- replacement springs fit and maintain contact with un-modified OE seats

throughout full suspension travel; and

- replacement springs are self-retaining in their seats at full extension,

without the use of non-standard devices such as wire-ties, straps, or external

spring locators; and

- replacement springs have not been heated or cut; and

- springs and spring seats are not height adjustable [unless OE]; and

- replacement shock absorbers fit un-modified OE mountings; and

- suspension maintains sufficient travel for safe operation when fully laden;

and

- suspension components maintain sufficient clearance from unmodified

bumpstops when fully laden; and

- the normal relationship between front and rear suspension height is not

unduly affected; and

- a minimum of 100mm ground clearance exists below any part of the vehicle

structure, or any steering, braking, or suspension component [this does not

include such items as exhaust pipes and exterior body panels that do not contribute

to the structural strength of the vehicle.]

If you a super-keen, you could try sending in a simple letter saying that you had been fined for something which is not illegal, and could they please remove the fine. If they argue, provide the LVV guys letter. It would be good to know (for others reading) if you can successfully negotiate without going to see an LVV certifier.

[Nobimmer 694]

Lol that's retarded.

I guess it depends what cop you get. I've been pulled over a couple times in the 7 and the cops have asked what sorta springs its got in it but never checked.

Should be fairly easy to get off it.

[bravo 35]

Its an interesting one - FrantiC's right, the police were clearly just a little confused. They know they need to measure that gap, but not that they only do it when the car IS CERTED (to make sure you are within the stupidly small certed limit). Even then they're wrong - the cert measurement is ground to arch.

My cert measurement is centre of hub to arch. I also thought this was the correct method as it allows checking of suspension height independent of wheel/tyre size in situations where it is suspected that both may have been changed.

Also:

A brief word on lowering from the LVVTA

[CamB 48]

You know - you might be right. I can't remember. I am mostly just irritated that they cert you for a height and for a certain width and diameter of wheels - its should be subject to a minimum and a rolling diameter tolerance respectively.

[bravo 35]

Preach on brother!!!! It sucks that I can't just swap between 16's and 17's as the mood takes me.