E36 Ti / E30 Camber/toe adjuster mod

[*Glenn* 855]

I'm going to do a detailed project thread about doing this. Many of you have researched this on the nett, but there are numerous things to consider when doing this... so don't do it untill you read this thread or you actually know how to do it. I've sent the plates out to those who have purchased them by NZ post. More to come... I've taken photos and I'm putting a write up together to go with it.

WATCH THIS SPACE

[*Glenn* 855]

The first things to consider and do before you do this mod are:

Is the ride height where I want it ?

Am I intending to do other wheel mods or suspension mods later on ?

Will my mods effect other components ?

Will I need to do panel/body work to the guards ?

Are my intentions legal and will it be safe to drive on NZ public roads ?

It's very important to know where you are heading with this or you'll be ringing me for more plates and Ray @ HELLBM for another subframe.

If you know the answers to these questions and know what you want to achieve, the first thing you must do is get a wheel alignment to determine where it's all sitting in it's present state. I'm going to be doing Delrin subframe and diff mount bushes purchased of Mosen Euro thanks to Kerry and Super Pro control arm bushes from Paul (#14) at Interpart Ltd. The reason for using the Super Pro bushes is that if you use a material that is too hard for the control arm bushes you will have difficulty getting adjustment. In standard form the control arm bushes run on the same axis, when you adjust camber or toe this axis changes and you will get deflection in the bush. If the bush is too hard it will be difficult. So i'm using the softer material. The adjustment bolts allow for a total of 8mm movement. The slotted holes in the plates are 20mm and the bolts are 12mm. If you are using the 8mm in one direction you will get 1mm deflection over the width of the bush .5mm at each end of the bush on opposite sides. Im welding my plates on to get total movement of the 8mm for reducing camber and 6mm for reducing toe. I'll show this once I get my subframe back from the welders. The width of the control arm is 400mm, the distance from the centre of the bush to the centre of the hub/wheel is the same, 400mm. So every 1mm of the adjustment will give you the same at the wheel. You might loose a little of this with the deflection in the bush material, so I would allow for this when doing it.

Please remember... this is how I'm doing it, and I've never done it before. It's a guide only and may not necessarily be correct for what you want to achieve. You need to think about it carefully. Get a tape measure, ruler, vernier, and square out, do your own measurements and check everything twice... I could be wrong. Jack your car up and have a good look and get a wheel alignment before you start pulling it appart.

WARNING : Do not braise, gas or mig weld these plates. TIG WELD ONLY and you only get one shot at this... so get it right first time. Don't file out the slots untill you have welded the plates on. Use the original holes to line up your plates and file out the slots after the welding has been completed.

My car has -2.45' camber and 3.5mm toe (Total toe is 7mm) in the rear. I want to get mine at -1.5' Camber & 0 toe

I've also already fitted solid lower outer ball joints, new inner ball joints and offset Delrin CAB's to the front control arms and my front steering geometry is where I want it. I was going to fit adjustable top hats, but this is not a track car, so I've just fitted new top hats. I'll post pictures shortly (not today) and keep this thread updated.

BTW: I have only one more set of plates left to sell

Edited July 15, 2010 by *Glenn*

[*Glenn* 855]

The plates

My Goodies

Preparation: Make sure you buff off the working area with a wire buff

The camber plates fit this way and are closest to the diff mount

The toe plates go this way and are closest to the subframe mounting bush

You need to get the subframe on a level axis first, mounted in a vice, using the subframe bush mount hole as the level with the bush removed. Do one side at a time and keep going back to check this each time you set up the plates. Keep double checking your work to make sure this axis plane doesn't change. You will see in the second picture we used a camshaft plate to bridge the accentric to get our level. These are the toe plates, you won't need this to do the camber plates. Each plate must be leveled individualy.

Check how the accentric bolts work in the plates so you know the direction of travel. The second picture shows the accentric in the nuetral position, which places the bolt in the centre of the plate (1st picture) Mark this for a reference point.

More to come when I get the subframe back from the welders

BTW: Keep checking my second post for added info. I haven't stripped my car yet. I'm doing it with another subframe and the E39 accentric rear control arm bolts, washers & nuts (98mm ones) thanks to Ray @ HELLBM

New bolts, washers & nuts can be purchased from BMW or our sponsor wreckers

New part #

Bolt 33 32 1 095 102 (98mm)

Washer 33 32 1 092 310

Nut 33 32 6 760 668

They cost around $125 for the set of 4

I'm not going to use the genuine nuts on the toe bolts as these are too close to the Delrin subframe mount. I'm going to use a shouldered nylock. I might have to modify the mount slightly to be able to get a spanner on the nut for adjustment.

Edited July 8, 2010 by *Glenn*

[CamB 48]

Thanks for doing such a detailed write-up Glenn. I haven't got around to doing mine (having it done, actually - I don't trust myself), but people should take careful note of what Glenn says. You really do need to work out where you need the adjustment ---> for a really low car it may not be appropriate to have the adjuster centred over the original hole when the plate is welded in as this **might** not give you enough adjustment range.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

Thanks heaps for this! Wont be doing mine myself either so will be a useful for whoever i get to do it. Would you think a good mechanice would be okay to do this or should i get an engineer to do it? dont mind either way really, just getting my mech to do all the other suspension work.

I'm not going to use the genuine nuts on the toe bolts as these are too close to the Delrin subframe mount. I'm going to use a shouldered nylock. I might have to modify the mount slightly to be able to get a spanner on the nut for adjustment.

Not sure how much detail your planning to give on this, but more is better if possible? i will be running the same subframe mounts.

Thanks!

Edited July 9, 2010 by _Ethrty-Andy_

[*Glenn* 855]

Thanks heaps for this! Wont be doing mine myself either so will be a useful for whoever i get to do it. Would you think a good mechanice would be okay to do this or should i get an engineer to do it? dont mind either way really, just getting my mech to do all the other suspension work.

Not sure how much detail your planning to give on this, but more is better if possible? i will be running the same subframe mounts.

Thanks!

Yes there will be alot more Andy.. there was so much missed information on the other forums on this and I could also see alot of mistakes ie: a 12mm bolt doesn't need a 12.7mm slot for this to work. You loose .7mm of your adjustment and the potential for movement under stress. I think the suppliers in the USA make their own bolts because 12.7mm = 1/2 inch. A mechanic with a logical brain is quite capable in doing this properly. I'm using a professional welder to weld my plates on. Did anyone else see some of the weld pictures ?? and also some of the missaligned, welded plates ??

Edited July 9, 2010 by *Glenn*

[hybrid 1044]

Will add a subframe build up in my project thread with this. I'm probably going to web/strengthen the trailing arm mounts too if possible. Only because mine will be takening a bit more a beating than your everyday road car.

[Nobimmer 694]

^^ +1... After you son.

[*Glenn* 855]

Got my subframe back today from the welders...photos to follow... I hope you guys who bought plates luv filing I've got one side just about finished (3hrs)

I hope everyone has got their plates and are happy with them...1 set left if theres any late comers that want a set

[*Glenn* 855]

Please remember DON"T try mig welding these TIG WELD ONLY

R/H Camber plate welded in position to give me maximum negative camber adjustment from standard position. I'm already running 2.5' negative camber with the the present ride height which I'm probably going to lower by another 20mm in the rear and I want to reduce camber to 1.5' negative

R/H Toe plate welded in position to give me 2mm toe in and 6mm toe out adjustment from standard position. At present I'm running 3.5mm toe in with worn bushes and I want to achieve 0' toe

Another view of the R/H toe plates welded in place

L/H Camber plates filed out

Another view of the L/H Camber plates filed out

Another one of the L/H Camber plates filed out

L/H toe plate filed out

Another view of the L/H toe plate

And another one

It's taken me just over 3hrs to do the L/H side. I'll get the R/H side done in the next couple of days. Then I'll take off all the sharp corners, buff it up, prep the subframe and paint it ready for the bush install.

These are the tools I'm using to do the work. Watch out using a high speed rotary file though, you can very easily cock it up. The rotary file is vicious !!!

Please remember... this is what I'm doing and it's what I want to achieve. You may want or need different settings for your car. YOU MUST DETERMINE YOUR RIDE HEIGHT FIRST and GET A WHEEL ALIGNMENT to determine your settings before doing anything.

Edited July 15, 2010 by *Glenn*

[*Glenn* 855]

I've also fitted solid lower outer and new inner CA ball joints with Delrin off set CAB's to get 4.45' castor in the front. The offset CAB"S I got from Kerry @ Mosen's. You will see the CAB's are locked in place with a 18mm X 6mm grub screw with lock nut to stop them moving. I like these because the bush is designed not to be pushed back under heavy braking. I originally fitted these with rubber grease and they squeeked like hell after 2 days, so I took them off and used copper slip grease on them and they're fine now. I asked Kerry to check with the manufacturer and see if he can put a spiral groove in them next time so that the bush can retain grease.

Edited July 15, 2010 by *Glenn*

[*Glenn* 855]

Finished all the filing this morning. Checked the adjustment movements, removed all the sharp edges, buffed it all up, primed and painted. Already now for the install. Not sure when I'm going to be doing it though, so friggen busy at work. Will all be happening in the next week or so.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

YOU MUST DETERMINE YOUR RIDE HEIGHT FIRST and GET A WHEEL ALIGNMENT to determine your settings before doing anything.[/b][/color]

I see a problem in my case.. i can easily put my new rear springs in to find the rear ride height, but my bushes out back are 20yo and rooted, and will be replaced with urethane ones at the same time as doing this mod. is an alignment before i tear it all apart still recommended? would think installation of the urethane ones alone would change things a bit. what would you recommend as a POA or would the change from the old OEM ones to urethane not make a big enough difference to worry about?

[*Glenn* 855]

I see a problem in my case.. i can easily put my new rear springs in to find the rear ride height, but my bushes out back are 20yo and rooted, and will be replaced with urethane ones at the same time as doing this mod. is an alignment before i tear it all apart still recommended? would think installation of the urethane ones alone would change things a bit. what would you recommend as a POA or would the change from the old OEM ones to urethane not make a big enough difference to worry about?

How much physical play is in your control arm bushes ? Mine are perished and cracked, but not broken.

What do you want to achieve ? less or more camber ? I'm reducing camber to -1.5' and going for "O" toe and I've set the plates so that the car can be reverted back to original settings with the adjustments.

[gouba 0]

I am most likely asking a really stupid question, but how do these work to provide the adjustments described

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

well last time i went for a WOF at VTNZ i failed on them (the only thing i failed on), but i knew id be doing an over haul on them so i went to a different garage and got my WOF (yeah yeah i know im anal about this.. do as i say not as i do etc lol).

I cant remember what they look like. i can PM a photo tomorrow when i put my new wheels on?

Will be going for zero toe as well, and not sure what i want to do for camber untill i get my new wheels on. Might have clearance angles that want even more camber (eek!) but ideally will want it more +ve

[*Glenn* 855]

I am most likely asking a really stupid question, but how do these work to provide the adjustments described

The accentric head of the bolt and the accentric washer move the bolt which is the support for the bush along the axis of the slot which is achieved by fitting the plates to the original mounting points and filing them out.

[gouba 0]

*clicks* makes perfect sense now.

Must be having a serious case of brain fade.

[antil33t 90]

Nice write up so far Glenn! way out of my comfort zone haha.

[*Glenn* 855]

The other thing you have to consider, if you increase negative camber, you also increase positive toe in. Under acceloration the bum will drop, camber and toe increases. The actual degree of this I'm unsure of. When I get my car finshed, I'll write up the differences in the effect of adding and decreasing camber & toe and how it effects the alignment.

[kerry 10]

I've also fitted solid lower outer and new inner CA ball joints with Delrin off set CAB's to get 4.45' castor in the front. The offset CAB"S I got from Kerry @ Mosen's. You will see the CAB's are locked in place with a 18mm X 6mm grub screw with lock nut to stop them moving. I like these because the bush is designed not to be pushed back under heavy braking. I originally fitted these with rubber grease and they squeeked like hell after 2 days, so I took them off and used copper slip grease on them and they're fine now. I asked Kerry to check with the manufacturer and see if he can put a spiral groove in them next time so that the bush can retain grease.

to everyone concerned in these delrin bushes i have informed the manufacture and we now have them with a spiral groove to retain grease , currently in stock i have 3 variants of off set cab's standard , moderate and extreme.

[*Glenn* 855]

Good stuff Kerry...he obviously agreed with my suggestion

[kerry 10]

well he didnt disagree , delrin is self lubericating like brass but the added grease will help.cheers glen

[westy 614]

So, whats the issue with MIG welding the brackets?

[*Glenn* 855]

So, whats the issue with MIG welding the brackets?

Getting enough voltage to get good penetration will end up blowing holes in the original bracket or the new plate.

TIG gives you a much smaller and neater weld with good penetration. I had mine done for me by a professional welder.