E46 M3 owners thoughts on this?

[APT 194]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=607175103

I would really like a manual one but it seems hard to find in my price range.

Thoughts?

[Tristan 338]

Trademe is down until 5 but just curious, have you driven both SMG and manual?

[APT 194]

Only driven manual

[CSET 583]

Only driven manual

Definitely worth taking for a drive.

02 is bearing-recall territory, good to see he's had it done. Also, the subframe has been fixed - another common fault. Sounds like it is well looked after, both fixes by Team Mac. Keen to know details on 'transmission recall' - I wasn't aware there was one, only that people had issues with the SMG box.

Looks in good nick, though hard to tell from photos.

[mrphil 1]

pre purchase inspection, like all BMW they are costly to fix plus the e46 m3 are common to have problems

Also those bbs wheels doesn't look right? Fakes maybe?

[Hi-Tek 3]

Also those bbs wheels doesn't look right? Fakes maybe?

What makes them not look right?

From what I can make out in the photos they are LMs (Le Mans).

Without seeing the offset stamping etc you'd be pretty hard pressed from those photos to tell if they were real of not.

[APT 194]

Thanks guys.. Wheels look like reps (smaller centre cap) i might have to take a smg one for a spin to feel what your all talking about.

[mrphil 1]

What makes them not look right?

From what I can make out in the photos they are LMs (Le Mans).

Without seeing the offset stamping etc you'd be pretty hard pressed from those photos to tell if they were real of not.

the center cap doesnt look right and now with a better look, it doesnt have BBS stamped on the front. Also being bbs they should have metal valve stems, unless someone changed them

[Cab 148]

Please dont get an smg

[Neal 544]

Get smg , the csl's has it for a reason !, far better on track days, no need to heel and toe. Use auto mode for heavy start / stop traffic. Smg should be smooth with little back lash otherwise look elsewhere.

Check brake rotor wear , $1800for front rotors and pads. Check rearview mirror for any sign of bubbling.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Neal

[M3_Power 636]

And you can't drop a Gen II SMG down from 5th directly to 3rd**... that's absolutely essential!

Incorrect ... it can skip as many gears as you want (i.e. you can skip from 5th to 1st if you ever need to - you just tap the paddles faster and it'll do it without going into the other gears)

Nothing wrong with buying a SMG car - if you don't like it you can always convert it to a 6 speed, it's not that hard and the hardware off the SMG is worth a bit of $ so you'll almost end up with at least 50% of the cost of the conversion back (or if you know how to do it on your own you'd probably end up with close to 80% back).

Oh and chances are you'll never have to change the clutch on a well maintained SMG car with regular calibration done.(proviso on this however - the plastic guide ring and the stupid release bearing will wear out faster than the clutch ... so you'll still need to get in there once in a blue moon ... LOL)

Also well known that you can flash the CSL SMG program on any SMG car - it'll make it loads more fun to drive : )

Edited July 3, 2013 by M3_Power

[HELLBM 1557]

The M3 you are looking at is at an excellent price. Well worth a look.

Give me SMG any day unless there happens to be a S62 in the engine bay. Take note of what Tom has to say in particular the fact that CSL`s are SMG.

[qube 3570]

Also well known that you can flash the CSL SMG program on any SMG car - it'll make it loads more fun to drive : )

whats this all about? could you elaborate? thanks!

[Neal 544]

If you want a manual, wait for a manual.

The SMG is fun for a few days (whilst you use it like a 'manual') but after that it becomes an 'auto' as the novelty wears off. No disrespect to SMG owners but the experience is quite different.

And you can't drop a Gen II SMG down from 5th directly to 3rd**... that's absolutely essential!

**It probably goes from 5th to 3rd via 4th faster than I can direct change manually but hey, where's the fun in that...

Checked 5-3 6-4 3-5 4-6 on the way home. Yep , Can do that on an SMG II. Took 15 mm of finger travel. That's 10's more efficient than a manual and only required 1 finger rather than 2 limbs. Get an awesome throttle blip on the double down shift

[Neal 544]

whats this all about? could you elaborate? thanks!

You can update the software on the SMG as the transmission software evolved from first release and continued through the Z4 Mcoupe. I had mine reflashed recently with the latest version.

Has slight improvements to the quality of shift in soft auto mode. A CSL load could also be specified.

Similar for DSC settings depending on ABS controller. The CSL load and Track mode switch can be added , though it would pay to have the larger CSL / AP / 911 Brembo callipers before doing this.

[Tristan 338]

Tom and Ray are right, the CSLs are SMG for a reason. I didn't get a very good drive of the one I was testing and I'm sure I'd like it but I had my heart set on a manual (for whatever reason) and knew that if I didn't get one I'd just regret it further down the line.

You never want to get in your car and think "what if... I got it in black, I got it in red, i got a manual, I got an SMG" if that is what you truly wanted!

Best advice is give both a GOOD drive, learn and understand the SMG software before you test it, i.e S1-6(?) etc.

The CSL reflash is pretty cool though!

[M3_Power 636]

Not to perpetuate the discussion, because it really means very little, but it's physically impossible for a sequential gearbox to "skip" a gear, even a double clutch box. Your experiences of this effect are simply tricky electronics. I concede however that it's much, much faster than a manual box.

No disrespect ... but spoken like someone that knows nothing about the SMGII system.

It's a standard H pattern gearbox 99.9% identical to the other 6 speed manual in the E46 M3 ... it CAN skip a gear or 2 if you are fast enough ... it's NOT tricky electronics that has to cycle through every gear. Technically it's not a true sequential gearbox - just a H pattern with hydraulics that mimic the standard H pattern shift.

I can write you a thesis on how the SMG2 system works if you want as I am sure I can explain it pretty well.

Edited July 3, 2013 by M3_Power

[M3_Power 636]

You can update the software on the SMG as the transmission software evolved from first release and continued through the Z4 Mcoupe. I had mine reflashed recently with the latest version.

Has slight improvements to the quality of shift in soft auto mode. A CSL load could also be specified.

Similar for DSC settings depending on ABS controller. The CSL load and Track mode switch can be added , though it would pay to have the larger CSL / AP / 911 Brembo callipers before doing this.

Actually even if you do the CSL SMG flash it only gives you some of the CSL shift features - as part of the coding in the software works with the CSL DME (for e.g. off brake downshift rev match, different speed in S5 and S6, auto up shift in launch control mode aren't available). But it's a good upgrade worth doing.

The latest software isn't always the greatest. I would only ever recommend versions 1, 2 and 3 of the CSL SMG software .. .the last 3 were absolutely rubbish and dumbed the system down by quite a bit.

[M3_Power 636]

Someone beat you to it: http://www.leo.nutz.de/docs/bmw/vortrag_vdi_engl.pdf

I didn't realise it was that slow that a human could beat it. I stand corrected.

Not sure what you are trying to prove there ... but I'll play.

Of course it's going to be slow in today's standards. But back in 2003, considering the Ferrari 360 F1 shift was 150ms and the 430 at 100ms ... the SMG2 was well advanced in this department. 80ms shifts were the quickest 'reliable' shifts yet still allowing for mechanical sympathy to the standard H pattern gearbox. In SMG3 (the E60 M5) BMW made it even quicker at 60ms (but they were only able to achieve this by repositioning the gears inside the gearbox so it was a non standard H pattern)

Still nothing compared to today's double clutch system that shifts in less than 20ms.

Whilst again nothing will ever compare to the F1 advance seamless shift systems where the next gear is engaged even before the driver completes pulling the paddle fully. (And you are somewhat right to say 80ms is slow ... given that when compared to the F1 seamless shifts, the regulations actually dictates an upshift can only have a maximum interruption of 80ms - this is to stop teams exhaust blowing during upshifts)

And I'll let you guess which system the F1 seamless shift system is closest to - double clutch or SMG (I know they are apples and oranges, but at the end of the day the basic principles are the same for one system).

Now please post up a video of you doing a 80ms (0.08s) shift for us to see thanks : )

Edited July 3, 2013 by M3_Power

[qube 3570]

^ interested and good read.

Anyways to take this topic back on point, I personally always wanted an E46 M3 with SMG rather than manual. Reason being, if I wanted a manual car, I would prefer to buy something else, maybe e39 m5 or maybe a Japanese car like a civic RR or something. I just feel that SMG is a great feature that is 'almost exclusive' to this generation of M3's and feel I should respect that by opting for it over the manual. By no means I'm hating on manual m3 owners!! I just think SMG is quite cool in its own way and suits the car somehow...

I think this is a lot of car for 26k (or near offer!) and anyone in the market should definitely consider it!

Low ish kms, lot of work done, sunroof (if that's what you like), etc etc.

Anyways yea

[jeffbebe 1559]

Irrespective of gearbox this looks a great buy on paper.

[Neal 544]

Back to APT

If you try an SMG get the owner to set Auto Mode to position 2 and manual mode to position 4 which are both good road setting. You'll get an idea of what the SMG is about. mode 2 is more auto like and mode 4 is more brisk manual change and is great for every day driving. Remember not to lift off the throttle like you would on a manual otherwise you'll think the system is jerky and crap.

Modes 5 & 6 are quick and more suited to track work and at higher throttle settings will put considerable load on gear train and rear subframe on the shift. I tend to do a slight throttle off on the change to avoid this. On the down shift the system is great. Shifting down to 2nd at 80 kmh under hard braking is not a problem without having to worry about rear wheel lock ups. System does well to match downshift revs.

The SMG also have launch control which holds the rpm at a reasonable level for quick take offs. Seems to be a good balance of brisk take off verse lighting tyres up. However , too many of these may cause the subframe mount point tearing that is well advertised.

@ Dave, us SMG owners love to take the p out of tractor style gearbox shift action that manual drivers have to put up with. See the light brother ......

[APT 194]

Thanks for the feedback team, it was certainly a good read I've contacted the owner and he said that are a few people interested this weekend and he will let me know if it doesnt sell - so its a waiting game for now.

Does anyone have any other trademe links they think is a good buy?

[vtgts300kw 90]

sh*t these cars are getting cheap. What rediculous value for money.

[M3_Power 636]

Back to APT

If you try an SMG get the owner to set Auto Mode to position 2 and manual mode to position 4 which are both good road setting. You'll get an idea of what the SMG is about. mode 2 is more auto like and mode 4 is more brisk manual change and is great for every day driving. Remember not to lift off the throttle like you would on a manual otherwise you'll think the system is jerky and crap.

Modes 5 & 6 are quick and more suited to track work and at higher throttle settings will put considerable load on gear train and rear subframe on the shift. I tend to do a slight throttle off on the change to avoid this. On the down shift the system is great. Shifting down to 2nd at 80 kmh under hard braking is not a problem without having to worry about rear wheel lock ups. System does well to match downshift revs.

The SMG also have launch control which holds the rpm at a reasonable level for quick take offs. Seems to be a good balance of brisk take off verse lighting tyres up. However , too many of these may cause the subframe mount point tearing that is well advertised.

@ Dave, us SMG owners love to take the p out of tractor style gearbox shift action that manual drivers have to put up with. See the light brother ......

Actually NEVER lift off the throttle no matter what mode you are in. The drive logic, DME and SMG controller all work in synch and lifting the throttle during up or downshifts tells the DME that you are either about to brake or slow down, so the DME interrupts the shifts midway - hence the slurring that many experience as a result.

I personally prefer S3 out of all the modes. Never really use anything other than s3 and s4 personally - the rest are harsh in my opinion - s6 is just brutal in my opinion.

There are two modes to launch control- one's called a burnout mode and the other the 'race start' - you engage the different modes by the speed you engage the accelerator pedal. Fast and hard down and it goes into burn out - slow and steady and it engages race start.

There's also a hill assist mode - basically holds the clutch on a hill for about 0.5 of a second to stop the car rolling backwards.

The only thing that the SMG can't do is a clutch kick - which the new 991 GT3 have managed to solve with pulling back both + and - paddles ... Personally I don't miss this function.

My comment was based on the assertion that a human can drop the SMG down two gears directly, literally skipping a gear. To do that one would have to 'inform' the box of that intention (to go down two gears) before the box had started to change (to the next lowest gear). The implication is that there's a pause or delay while the gearbox waits for the "second shift" signal from the driver, or worst case the box commences the first shift, cancels that mid-shift (when it senses the second 'tap'), reverses the direction of the shifting mechanism and then seeks the next lowest gear.

I am telling you it can skip a gear or as many as you like. It doesn't engage the gear half way and then reverse back and select the second or third gear selection - that's not how the system works.

Perhaps the actual SMG technical manual from BMW will finally convince you of this.

The system only engages the gear selected on the final command (i.e. the last push of the paddle).

I've circled the important bit in red for you.

(I know how the technical manual reads by the way - but you need to read the whole thing to understand that it is a two step process when it selects a gear - i.e. it shifts into neutral first - as there are two sensors that tell the selector how far to reach and how many degrees to turn - what the second paragaraph is saying is it interrupts the shift at the neutral stage)

Edited July 4, 2013 by M3_Power