AIRBAG thread, wahoo........... :-)

[Phil-540i 166]

Started as a result of what's been happening (IMO, unfairly...) elsewhere in a project thread, lets have a proper healthy / unhealthy debate here on airbags then........facts / fiction/ friction, & anything else welcome - bring it on!!

So anyway, here we go.............some common & not so common stuff.......

- I'm thinking of bypassing the passenger seat sensor so I can get a wof, whatyareckon..........??

- Are my 20 yr old airbags still gonna work ok in a crash??

- What degree of impact might set my airbags offffffffffffffff??

- Will they work if I leave the road & roll my car......????

- Is my 20 yr old airbag system weight dependant?? (As a general guide, the correct answer is ummm, 'No')

- Can I remove the airbags from my vehicle?? If I can, how do I do this.........??

- My 22stone Ethiopian brother from another mother sits in my car - will my airbags protect him too??

- Aww I dunno - does my SRS system activate via crush points or rate of deceleration, I dunno ....???

- My car has got driver SRS - how do I fit a 'sports' steering wheel.......??

- So, crossing pins 12 & 18 sets it off - nooooooo way............???

- Dude, my airbags - they been folded left to right or right to left when assembled - whatchathinks??

- For any-one that's taken some 'Clive Matthew-Wilson' pills - can I retrofit airbags to my non-SRS vehicle.....?? (Apparently that plonker did.....)

- I'm looking at buying a E39, been slammed & blinged & got the gangster rims - no dash lights are on, how do I know if the airbag system has been f#cked with??

- Opps, forgot the logical 1 - how do I repack my airbag after its gone off.........?? Ah rodgey, spare ones aisle 5, SuperCheap Auto???

I'll edit & keep adding...........but hey, lets knock ourselves out here ae...........

Edited January 7, 2014 by Blue-540i

[Phil-540i 166]

On ya Dave, cheers for that..............

[gjm 3196]

Some time (years) ago I wrote this for a Porsche 928 forum:

"The first airbag fitted to a customer-sold, production line vehicle was in a 1980 S-class Mercedes. It took Merc 13 years to develop technology suitable for public use.

Development of airbags for use in cars began at Mercedes back in 1967. Deployment of an airbag in an appropriate time - less than 30 milliseconds - meant development of several new technologies, not least the fabric used for the bag. Explosive inflation ripped or tore most fabrics and those fabrics originally used will have deteriorated in the last 25 years - take a piece of canvas, fold it tightly in an enclosed space, and see how long it lasts!

Early airbags used a powder, similar to talcum, to stop the folds of the bag sticking to each other. Over time, damp plays a part in reducing the powder's effectiveness, causing a reduction in effectiveness of the airbag deployment system.

Volvo increased the replacement interval for their airbags from 10 to 15 years as recently as 2005, but still require the system to be checked after 10 years."

So... Aside from what Dave has already said, there's a little more to this than just "will it work?" And there's an elephant in the room - airbags aren't required to be checked for any inspections. The WoF just needs the system to show that they would work if required.

[NVADER 54]

You can legally remove airbags from a car that's over 14 years old but it needs to be certified and lights must be removed from the dash etc

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Phil-540i 166]

You can legally remove airbags from a car that's over 14 years old but it needs to be certified and lights must be removed from the dash etc

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Ahhh rodgey, I'd heard that too. I'd heard it doesn't even have to be 14yrs old in order to do this little mod.............. As part of what my cousin's aunties sister's youngest daughter's boyfriend's mate down the road heard while he was at the pub 2 Friday nights ago in Tuatapere, apparently the only thing needed in addition to what you're saying there Seamus is anywhere there was a airbag, there MUST be a sticker in its place clearly stipulating that the airbag has been removed.......

In my defence though, that might just be a Tuatapere regulation, which is highly likely to be different to what the boys reckon with their farm utes out at Tokanui.......

Not that we wanna stray off topic or anything, but maybe consider this as a 'legal scenario........'

If I'm, say, a dog botherer for example....(farmer), I can now rock into a dealer from 1/1/14, buy a new ute, get it certed for airbags being removed, then spend over 1100 days using it hard off-road on a station or whatever, overloading it as ya do, bouncing off fence posts etc etc before it legally needs another inspection for roadworthiness (wof).........

Awesome ae............

Edited January 5, 2014 by Blue-540i

[Phil-540i 166]

Slight flaw in NZTA regs being that if you rest your pi$$ bottles in the wrong place, it'll wear the writing off the sticker anyway.............

[gjm 3196]

You can legally remove airbags from a car that's over 14 years old but it needs to be certified and lights must be removed from the dash etc

Interesting. Could be useful, too.

Of course, it is hoped none of us will ever have cause to find out whether an older airbag would work or not. I've never experienced it, but people I know who have had the misfortune of having an explosively inflated bag stop their face hitting the steering wheel (a good idea - no doubt about that) described it as a fairly horrific experience in itself, akin to being smashed in the face by a boxing glove covered in sandpaper. While injured, prsumably they were less so than had they not had an airbag.

I have some stats somewhere showing that the difference between surviving an accident (i.e., no fatality) with or without an airbag is quite small, yet the difference between being unscathed without an airbag, but injured when one is deployed, is quite high. Raw figures from most airbag-related studies focus on lives saved or lost, with or without airbags, and the differences between those numbers tend to be almost statistically insignificant. Non-life threatening injuries are much higher with the airbag-equipped vehicles. (You may have heard of airbag 'burn', for example.)

[Phil-540i 166]

Interesting. Could be useful, too.

Of course, it is hoped none of us will ever have cause to find out whether an older airbag would work or not. I've never experienced it, but people I know who have had the misfortune of having an explosively inflated bag stop their face hitting the steering wheel (a good idea - no doubt about that) described it as a fairly horrific experience in itself, akin to being smashed in the face by a boxing glove covered in sandpaper. While injured, prsumably they were less so than had they not had an airbag.

I have some stats somewhere showing that the difference between surviving an accident (i.e., no fatality) with or without an airbag is quite small, yet the difference between being unscathed without an airbag, but injured when one is deployed, is quite high. Raw figures from most airbag-related studies focus on lives saved or lost, with or without airbags, and the differences between those numbers tend to be almost statistically insignificant. Non-life threatening injuries are much higher with the airbag-equipped vehicles. (You may have heard of airbag 'burn', for example.)

Well if we're gonna get that sensible and that logical and that truthful bout airbags, then umm, I suppose its only fair to point out that a steering wheel mounted SRS is 'supposed' to impact into the chest area, not the face. On SRS equipped vehicles, its one of the prime reasons steering wheel height, & driver's seating position in terms of seat adjustment is so so critical............

On ya Graham - nice!!

Edit: Oh ok, I'll play the 'sensible' game too - in addition to the above bit bout wheel height etc, its actually fairly critical also on a SRS equipped vehicle, that the driver 'steers' the vehicle in the correct manner............as a wee hint, you don't wanna be holding the steering wheel in the 12'o clock position one handed & have the airbag 'go off' - its highly likely it'll kill ya.........

Same as passengers resting their feet on LHS of dash - another goooood way to die when an airbag goes offski.........

Edited January 5, 2014 by Blue-540i

[NVADER 54]

- I'm thinking of bypassing the passenger seat sensor so I can get a wof, whatyareckon..........??

M3AN, on 05 Jan 2014 - 5:43 PM, said:

No problem, airbag(s) will just fire regardless of occupancy.

Refreshing.

....as a wee hint, you don't wanna be holding the steering wheel in the 12'o clock position one handed & have the airbag 'go off' - its highly likely it'll kill ya.........

Good point - I'm a shocker for doing that in my work vehicle :/

[euroriffic 603]

E46 airbag light is on too and probably going to do the same mod to get rid of it. It'll be fiiiiiiiinnne!

[KwS 2378]

Youre the driver, so just make sure its someone you dislike in the front passengers seat.... anyone you like can sit in the back

[yng_750 247]

 

Interesting. Could be useful, too.

 

Of course, it is hoped none of us will ever have cause to find out whether an older airbag would work or not. I've never experienced it, but people I know who have had the misfortune of having an explosively inflated bag stop their face hitting the steering wheel (a good idea - no doubt about that) described it as a fairly horrific experience in itself, akin to being smashed in the face by a boxing glove covered in sandpaper. While injured, prsumably they were less so than had they not had an airbag.

 

I have some stats somewhere showing that the difference between surviving an accident (i.e., no fatality) with or without an airbag is quite small, yet the difference between being unscathed without an airbag, but injured when one is deployed, is quite high. Raw figures from most airbag-related studies focus on lives saved or lost, with or without airbags, and the differences between those numbers tend to be almost statistically insignificant. Non-life threatening injuries are much higher with the airbag-equipped vehicles. (You may have heard of airbag 'burn', for example.)

  Well if we're gonna get that sensible and that logical and that truthful bout airbags, then umm, I suppose its only fair to point out that a steering wheel mounted SRS is 'supposed' to impact into the chest area, not the face. On SRS equipped vehicles, its one of the prime reasons steering wheel height, & driver's seating position in terms of seat adjustment is so so critical............  

 

On ya Graham - nice!!

 

Edit: Oh ok, I'll play the 'sensible' game too - in addition to the above bit bout wheel height etc, its actually fairly critical also on a SRS equipped vehicle, that the driver 'steers' the vehicle in the correct manner............as a wee hint, you don't wanna be holding the steering wheel in the 12'o clock position one handed & have the airbag 'go off' - its highly likely it'll kill ya.........

Same as passengers resting their feet on LHS of dash - another goooood way to die when an airbag goes offski.........

would love to see any evidence that there is only a small differance in fatality levels. they arent there just for shits and giggles. i rather have an airbag burn than than a neck injury.

also any proof that having an arm at 12 oclock will kill you.

just like seatbelts people look for a reason to doubt them. i have heard people quote a single case where someone drowned due to being trapped by a seatbelt. and say" they kill more people than they save". natural selection i suppose.

i also see people not wear belts because they have an airbag. i dont stay friends with such people

[Phil-540i 166]

would love to see any evidence that there is only a small differance in fatality levels. they arent there just for shits and giggles. i rather have an airbag burn than than a neck injury.

What it does nowdays is help people 'survive' accidents that 10 years ago woulda seen them being chucked in a box that goes in the ground. Downside (as such...) is that ACC rehabilitation costs have gone through the roof, & there are multiple numbers of people out there that 'survived' the accident, but are so f#ucked up from it they have no quality of life, which being brutal but honest, leads to on-going trauma & suffering for their family & friends. I'm confident your own research will show that what Graham is saying is right........at speed cars are dangerous, & in a crash above 80kph, theres a high risk of serious injury or death, irrespective of airbags being fitted or not........

also any proof that having an arm at 12 oclock will kill you. Hmmm, I dunno - one example I know of is a police officer in Aussie sitting in his stationary vehicle, when it was hit in the front by something else. It was the impact of his fist being blown back into his forehead from the 12'o clock position that killed him - high odds he would have probably survived the accident relatively unscathed bar that bit....as a hint its an explosive charge that inflates an airbag........

just like seatbelts people look for a reason to doubt them. i have heard people quote a single case where someone drowned due to being trapped by a seatbelt. and say" they kill more people than they save". natural selection i suppose. Yea, natural selection, people tweaking stats to suit themselves or whatever - I wear a seatbelt all the time, same as I wear a proper helmet when on a quad, as you're a long time dead.......

i also see people not wear belts because they have an airbag. i dont stay friends with such people. Once more, this sorta thinking is probably a result of 'cousins loving cousins' - airbags, without a seatbelt aren't pretty. Think its got something to do with your poor delicate frail body meeting an explosively charged object.....they are called a Supplementary Restraint System for a reason - the seatbelt is always the primary restraint.............

On a serious note Jason, next time you're in a decent sized metro place, see if ya can have a wander around a Turner's Damaged vehicle site - looking at crashed vehicles is 'interesting' sometimes..............especially given that accidents happen out in the real world, not in a test lab to get a 'safety rating'.....

Edited January 6, 2014 by Blue-540i

[Phil-540i 166]

Dammit, so how do I remove this poxy bulb then..............

[NVADER 54]

FYI on the whole E38 mat sensor thing: http://papers.sae.org/960226/

Due to the increasing amount of cars equipped with passenger airbags, there are now a larger number of accidents during which passenger airbags are activated although nobody is actually sitting in the passenger seat Even when one discounts those accidents which result in car “write-offs”, the unnecessary deployment of the passenger airbag increases repair costs in an unjustified way in order to avoid this type of situation, all BMW vehicles as of June 1994 are equipped with a seat occupancy monitoring system (SOMS) installed in the passenger seat

That's definitely not the only reason. The mats also will not activate the passenger airbag for any passenger under 40lb (18.x Kg's) to prevent harm to children - who would put an <18kg child in the front seat anyway? But that does coincide with what Jason H was saying about weight detection, although in a fairly primitive form in the 90's models, and is probably the most important piece of information relating to these sensors.

Edited January 6, 2014 by NVADER

[NVADER 54]

This was posted in another thread and found some info on it on my travels:

i would be interested to know how much airbags actually cost the manufacturer at time of instalation. could indicate wether we will see a market for replacement bags in another decade when half of them are getting to old to function.

Car airbags are part of a vehicle's supplemental restraint system (SRS). They have been around since the 1970s and are now standard equipment on every vehicle. Since airbags were new technology then, a number of automakers erred on the side of caution when estimating their lifespan. The owner's manual on early-1990s Honda and Acura vehicles, for example, recommended a dealer inspection of airbags every 10 years.

"That inspection was simply a visual inspection and a confirmation that the self-diagnostic functions were working properly," says Chris Martin, spokesman for American Honda.

Mercedes-Benz, on the other hand, was a bit more conservative. The automaker installed airbag replacement labels on all vehicles sold in the U.S. through roughly 2002, says Diedra Wylie, a spokesperson for Mercedes-Benz. The labels called for new airbags at the 15-year mark. After 2002, Mercedes research concluded that the airbags it produced after January 1, 1992 would last the life of the vehicle, Wylie says.

"Advances in airbag module technology now ensure the lifelong, functional reliability of the airbags," says Wylie.

In pre-1992 Mercedes vehicles with airbags, the part needs to be replaced after 15 years. The vehicle's owner will have to foot the bill of roughly $2,000.

If you have an airbag-equipped car from the late 1980s to mid-1990s, make sure you check the owner's manual to see if the automaker calls for an airbag replacement or inspection.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/do-car-airbags-expire.html

From what I've read, most manufacturers put an expiration sticker on the bags and most seem to say 10-15 years a.k.a "the lifespan of the vehicle".

[Phil-540i 166]

I like what you've said here...........^^^^^^^^

Given that most other stuff even unused deteriates with age, whether its unopened condoms or the spare wheel in your car, then there is logical to what's being said there probably. We're probably at a little bit of a disadvantage in some ways here in NZ because the kiwi vehicle fleet tends to have a longer 'life span' as a medium age, that what lots of other countries do...........

Logical & rational & informative stuff, still ain't helping me get this bulb removed though bro.............

As a generalisation, most kiwi drivers know bugger-all about the technology that's in, or even not in their vehicles. As an example, go and ask 5 random people you know, if the car they are driving has got ABS fitted or not. Then ask them "How do you know??". Follow it up with "Whats the purpose of ABS then......??"

[Phil-540i 166]

Interesting to look at this thing here.............as a '$hits & giggles' exercise.........

There's 8 airbags in this vehicle........ http://turners.co.nz/Damaged-Vehicles/Search/Toyota/Hilux/11729409/

None of them have deployed............

Edit. Heres a budget model BMW, only 1 airbag fitted. Way less damage to the vehicle, but because of the way it has been crashed / impacted, airbag deployment has occurred.....

http://turners.co.nz/Damaged-Vehicles/Search/BMW/318Ti/11752236/

Edited January 6, 2014 by Blue-540i

[jeffbebe 1559]

Not sure why you'd want to remove any safety feature from your car for normal road use? If your airbag light is on fix the problem, don't fudge it to get through a warrant.

You may trust yourself to not crash but what about the other drivers on the road?

Personally, I'd rather have all the protection I can in the event of a crash. If the airbags deploy in a minor incident, so be it. I'd rather pay to replace them than not have them in a bigger accident.

(I've only skim read this thread so apologies if I've missed the point).

[yng_750 247]

Not sure why you'd want to remove any safety feature from your car for normal road use? If your airbag light is on fix the problem, don't fudge it to get through a warrant.

You may trust yourself to not crash but what about the other drivers on the road?

Personally, I'd rather have all the protection I can in the event of a crash. If the airbags deploy in a minor incident, so be it. I'd rather pay to replace them than not have them in a bigger accident.

(I've only skim read this thread so apologies if I've missed the point).

pretty much spot on