Trademe + Disputes tribunal

[qube 3570]

Hi everyone, just looking for some third person perspective and advice

I recently sold a used iphone 4 to a buyer in invercargill through trademe.

somewhere along the line it must have devoloped some problems, the buyer claimed that the screen goes blue then when he presses a button it works as normal and said its done it 6-7 times in 3 days. he supposedly had it "checked out" by a technician at telecom. lol.

The first time he emailed me was a day after receiving it.

When i sold the phone it was in good working condition and nothing wrong with it.

any way he claimed for a full refund and I said no, we can come to a mutual agreement with compromise since its unfair that I need to take responsibility for damages you may or may not have caused and he was unwilling.

skip skip to today he got a signed letter from the courts to release my details from trademe to claim at the disputes tribunal.

im not a shop so I shouldnt have to give a refund or provide any guarantees. He should understand the risks in buying second hand items and sight unseen which is his problem.

if i sold it in person then he would have checked it, went okay, walked away, and had a problem the next day and it wouldnt even be my problem.

he accuses me of selling a faulty iphone but i sold what i sold and it was advertised as a mint condition iphone.

anyways, i was inclined to give him a partial refund to account for the trouble but he only wanted a full refund (which is only $300 btw).

now im not so keen especially with him being so abusive and threatening me with court (this was in the emails before today as well)

any thoughts?

Edited August 14, 2014 by QUBE

[MISS BM 712]

I think due to the nature of Trade Me, it is classed as an Auction site.. so potentially some laws come into play.. But I could be wrong.

If you can some how prove you are in the right, that would benefit you, but at present the courts will see it all as heresay, And because he lodged the claim, he automatically looks serious about the situation..

I'm not really clued up on this, but have a look at the laws that govern trade me

[Haitoman 110]

Say to him, "see you in court"....he can't win.

[qube 3570]

ive looked into it all. the first thing that suprised me was that sellers are liable for damages incured in transit. (but you can claim against the delivery company..)

He cant prove that there was a problem before he received it.

and I cant prove that there wasnt a problem before I sent it.

its just his word against mine really... and i know that he looks more favorable in this case.

trademe was very unhelpful. told me something along the lines of, "oh sorry, but usually good communication goes a long way. talk to him and try to find a solution before situation escalates."

Thanks trademe! I didnt know that before you told me!

To be honest though, I think that phones have the tendency to just develop problems randomly at any time and place and he just got unlucky that it happened straight after he bought it. but like i said before, thats the risk of buying second hand and trying to save a few bucks. if he wanted peace of mind then he should have bought new or from an actual store not try to accuse me of selling faulty goods.

edit:

(im going to take videos of everything i sell from now on so i have proof it was working fine. good idea aye?)

Edited August 14, 2014 by QUBE

[kingkarl 136]

Screw the refund... See him at the disputes tribunal

I've been a couple times and its very informal. You tell your side of the story, they tell theirs and the adjudicator makes a judgement.

Your defence that the phone was working when you sent looks very convenient. I'm not suggesting you are lying but there are unscrupulous people out there that do... and the disputes tribunal sees a lot of them. You may win you may lose but its worth a go.

Post a copy of your trademe ad if you have it

[qube 3570]

Say to him, "see you in court"....he can't win.

seeing as hes in invercargill and im in auckland, i would much prefer not to see him anywhere.

i just dont understand why he would go through all the trouble with disputes tribunal and pay $45 fee when he would just eat his losses and try negotiate a deal with me? like get a proper quote for a fix and pay half half towards repairs.

[qube 3570]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=762470074

[M5V8 337]

I'd agree with Karl. You are selling on an auction site. You are not a trader therefore the consumer guarentee's act doesn't apply.

There's no warranty expressed or implied.

If you don't want to come to any agreement in regards to a refund, then goto the tribunal. Let them decide what's fair.

[M5V8 337]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=762470074

if it's refurb couldn't it be sent back to them to check it?

[qube 3570]

the refurb was quite a while ago and the repair wasnt on record

[kingkarl 136]

Because you have presented the phone to be in excellent condition with X, Y and Z replaced you may be on the losing end of this one.

I faced a very similar situation last year. The claimant was trying to get me for $1200. The representations I made were judged to be slightly untrue. The adjudicator found me to be in the wrong but only made me cough up $500.

So you can lose but still win

[qube 3570]

Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 12:05 PM

Hello Kyu, This iphone 4 # "mint condition"is in very good condition but has a fault, a blue screen with lines comes up when left, You have to press the power button to get rid of it so you can get to the wallpaper screen with the time on it , This was advertised as ''MINT''with not problems.

I;m not sure If I'm going to keep it with this software fault and unless you can help me out with this I will be sending it back and requesting a refund.

Thanks

sj

Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 12:12 PM

Hi sj

I know this doesnt sound very convincing but in all honesty i have never experienced such a problem.

The phone was working perfectly fine and I was not aware of this issue.

Have you tried a restore? As youve said it sounds like a software fault since its working fine otherwise am i right? Can you tell me any more detail? Any other symptoms or issues? Have you dropped the phone since receiving it?

I have had great feedback and I care about the items that I sell. I am happy to come to a solution with you so keep in touch.

Kind regards
Kyu

Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:35 AM

Hello Kyu, Bad news Im afraid.

I have just returned from the Telecom shop and paid a technician to check out the BLUE SCREEN fault with this i phone, The diagnoses was not good.

This phone is faulty,and was not caused by me since I have had it.

I am requesting a full refund of $300 from you for this phone.

I wish to bubble wrap and post back to you.

Can you confirm your post box number.

Auckland

my account number to transfer funds is

Thanks

sj

Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:41 AM

What was the diagnosis? Do you have a receipt for the work done by a telecom technician?

My search online tells me its a random problem that can occur at any time and place without being dropped. A hard reset apparently can solve the problem.

Like I said when i sent the phone there was no problem.

You need to give me more information before we come to an agreed conclusion.

Kind regards
Kyu

Hello Kyu, Thanks for your repy.

I need to know if you are prepared to give me a refund , If not I am prepared to seek legal action.

Do I need to contact Trademe ?

The Diagnosis from a Telecom technician on Dee Street Invercargill was this phone has a fault [blue screen] every now and then.

The consumer act states even second hand goods need to be fit for use.

I advised you the phone has this fault after one day from receiving it.

This phone was advertised as having no faults.

Thanks

sj

Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:20 AM

Hi sj

Like I said in previous emails I am happy to come to a conclusion with you, I dont expect to be threatened like this.

You have not answered any of my questions in my efforts to make this right. You need to tell me what the exact symptoms are.

Have you tried a hard reset? (hold down home button and power button together until restart)

Have you tried putting it into DFU mode and restore?

The reason I am trying to suggest these possible FIXES is because I know for a fact that there was no problem with the phone when I sent it.

It was professionally refurbished as stated in the auction and working perfectly prior it to being sent out.

When I sold and sent you the phone, it was in the condition described in the auction, there were multiple pictures to prove that. Also tested all functionalities with the phone to make sure working order.

I have no way to know whether you have dropped it, water damaged it, abused it with jailbreaking or malicious software or plugged it into a virus infected computer.

You need to give me more details like I asked for the my last email so I can help you to correctly diagnose the problem and suggest a fix.

All you've told me is "It has a blue screen every now and then." Does it work perfectly otherwise? Have you tried the fixes I have suggested?

Get back to me once you are able to answer these questions.

You shouldnt threated me with legal action or anything of this kind. I told you straightaway I am happy to discuss options, kept in good contact with prompt email replies and suggested fixes which you have ignored.

I look forward to hearing back from you soon.

Kyu

Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:10 PM

Hello again Kyu, To answer your questions- Have I dropped it, Water damaged it, jail breaked it, malicious soft wared it, infected it, No to all your questions.

My question to you is should I have to FIX this phone, No !

I have taken it to see a technician at telecom.

Its one fault is the blue screen,everthing else is fine.

I am not a i phone technician I am telling you what he told me ''Its Faulty'' the Blue screen has come up 6/7 times in the three days that I have had it.

You assure me there was no fault ,I advised you after one day there was a fault, the technician at telecom confirmed this.

Sorry you feel threatened that was not my intention but I am advising you, If this blue screen comes up once more, I will be taking this further.

I have hard reset it, I have restored it and I will see if that has rectified the fault.I am not interested in owning a faulty iphone

I'm assuming that your not interested in an agreement for refunding my money?

Thanks

sj

Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:56 PM

Thank you for answering my questions.

I have answered yours truthfully and to the extent of my knowledge the phone was working fine when it was sent to you.

Just so we are clear, I am not responsible for possible damages incurred during transit OR any possible damages that you may have or have not inflicted on the phone knowingly or unknowingly once in your possession.

As a buyer you should be aware that items are sent at the buyers risk. I have told you the condition of the iPhone truthfully and accurately.

I dont feel that I need to offer you a full refund for an item that is not in the same state as when I sold it.

I think you need to understand that not all sellers are scammers and fraudsters. I am a legitimate seller selling honest items. I do not try to scam or offload faulty stuff by misleading buyers. Sometimes, things dont always go right, things get lost or broken in the post and the right thing to do is make communication, come to a compromise or negotiate something, not just forcefully claim fault at the seller and threaten with legal action unless given a refund.

Kyu

Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 9:07 AM

Hello Kyu, Just advising you I have contacted Trade me and sent them a signed by a courts registrar, a Statutory declaration to release your contact details so I can pursue a refund for the faulty i phone through the Disputes Tribunal.

The consumer guarantees Act 1993 states traders guidelines of professional sellers [trade me sellers]

Offer a full refund upon the return of goods with serious problems.

I am disappointed I have had to take this path, But I believe as a professional seller you are responsible and liable.

sj

Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 9:22 AM

I have kept in good contact with you through all this.

I am not responsible for any problems you have with the phone after the trade is completed.

There were no problems with the phone prior to me sending it out so whatever happens with it after you recieve it is your problem.

Trademe has advised me that usually with scenarios like this sellers and buyers come to a mutual agreement but you have just accused me of selling a faulty item which just isnt true and threatened me for a full refund.

What do you suggest is an alternative option? You need to understand that it is not fair for me because if I give you a refund I am stuck with a faulty phone which wasnt faulty when I sold it.

I am not fully responsible or liable but I am willing to make compromise and come to a good solution (as I stated from the very first email after the problem arose) if you are also willing to make compromise instead of just blatantly request a full refund which just isnt fair.

Kyu

Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 10:34 AM

Hello, I'm not sure what you mean by ''willing to make a compromise and mutual agreement'' can you elaborate

as I'm happy to let the disputes tribunal sort this out.

Thanks

sj

Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 10:44 AM

I have said it many times that im happy to come to solution with you but you only wanted a full refund.

If you wanted to go get a proper quote for a repair then I could pay half towards it.

Otherwise go to the Disputes Tribunal.

Kyu

Edited August 14, 2014 by QUBE

[M5V8 337]

TBO.

you are the one sounding reasonable.

[qube 3570]

do you mean TBH to be honest .....or TBO to be Onest? haha cheers.

Sorry for the long boring read.

[M5V8 337]

lol... yeah I'll take a O for orsum.

I like reading interesting cases like these. I think he's being unreasonable. He should seek a professional report to repair and provide you with this.

For all you know he's dropped it and taken it to some nitwit saleman in a telecom store whom has said it's stuffed.

You have no way to know if he's even telling the truth, has have provided any evidence that it's faulty?

[qube 3570]

no he hasnt. and thats my point also. Ive asked him for receipt for the "check up" by the telecom store technician.

he hasnt given me any detailed description of the problem despite me asking him.

To Be Orsum, i dont mind coughing up $300 for it. its not a huge deal and its not gonna break the bank. But hes being unreasonable and not very nice about it.

throwing in words like court, taking it further, consumer guarantees act 1993, isnt really going to scare me i know my rights and even if the disputes tribunal asks me to pay its obviously not going to be more than 300.. unless he tries to fabricate something about the technician costs or whatever...

edit:

just wondering how this works with us being in different cities??

Edited August 14, 2014 by QUBE

[gjm 3258]

Kyu - you appear to be trying to help resolve the issue. This is good. He doesn't appear to be being helpful.

Be aware that some people, despite not being 'i phone technician' are not beyond swapping components and claiming something received is faulty. Do you have detail of the IMEI number? It may become relevant. I had exactly this with a Dell laptop - the buyer swapped the motherboard and claimed receipt of a faulty device. Fortunately I had lots of specific tech info and photographs...

[qube 3570]

unfortunately i forgot to keep any record of this particular phone.

i usually have plenty of photos and screenshots of the model imei serial number etc but yea..

i dont think he is trying to pull such a tricky trick but yea..you never know!!

[M5V8 337]

I had a witness provide phone evidence from afar, but yes I don't know how they will work the distance. Obviously requesting one party or the other to travel wouldn't be practical.

In my experience they weigh up given evidence. So you say it was perfect, he says it's got a fault. Unless you can get a report that shows there's a visible dent that may have caused the damage that you could prove that wasn't there before...

Most likely outcome is you will be asked to pay him $150.

Edit:

Those emails will help your case. Be sure to submit them to the court. they might just rule he's not willing to resolve.

Edited August 14, 2014 by M5V8

[qube 3570]

paying 150 is better than paying 300. its not as good as paying $0 but hey, like i said i was willing to make compromise from the get go and he wasnt.

edit:

You bet I will.

Thanks for all the help.

and another reminder to always keep record of what you sell!

(btw hope your move to akl went smoothly darren!)

Edited August 14, 2014 by QUBE

[M5V8 337]

smooth(ish). thanks!

now we are still in the unpacking, where the hell is everything, sick of unpacking boxes, getting services hookedup stage.

I swear some expensive plonk went missing somewhere inbetween.

[qube 3570]

lol im moving soon too, cant wait to lose stuff and find it all over again! how exciting.

[KwS 2425]

Last time i went to the DT we had another party on a conference phone, so that might be one way of them doing it (either holding it down there with him, or up with you and one of you calling in).

Sounds like the guy is being very unreasonable though.

Edited August 14, 2014 by KwS

[qube 3570]

its not my first time selling on trademe. last time i sold an imac it developed a software issue randomly that would keep the fan on always. buyer made contact after a month! we discussed the problem, i found a program that controls the fan that could be purchased online for 40 odd us dollars and i transferred her like $25 to pay towards it. i didnt have to do any of that especially after 1 month but this way everyone is happy and it only cost me few bucks.

this guy, goes straight to a telecom "technician" to find out "yes, its faulty"... doesnt provide evidence of this, doesnt provide evidence of phone problem, what does he expect me to do? if you look at the time stamps i always replied him within minutes! it would take him hours or next day! ridiculous

[KwS 2425]

Does Invergiggle have an Authorized Apple Service Center? Get him to take the phone there if they do. Telecom are NOT authorized repair agents for Apple products (they can send the phone to one, but they are not one themselves).