N54 Intercoolers. NZ source?

[HalfJobHarry 106]

I'm looking for a quality 5" intercooler for the N54 (E82 chassis). 

My research is sending me to VRSF , but they want $200 USD for shipping. The intercooler itself is a good deal at $350. Maybe even with the shipping I'm in better shape than buying something local. 

Trademe people are asking ~$500 NZD for some anonymous N54 intercooler, without any notion of build quality, flow, cooling capability I'm pretty much unwilling to throw cash at that. 

What are you all running out there, impressions, results and where did you source from? 

Thanks

 

[smiddy 76]

[smiddy 76]

I got a allixpress unit fitted straight in, very well made, was about $NZ 380 delivered.

Huge differance in mid range.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

1 hour ago, smiddy said:

I got a allixpress unit fitted straight in, very well made, was about $NZ 380 delivered.

Huge differance in mid range.

Oh those end tanks are not half bad either! Would you mind PMing me the seller for that one? I'll have a look, as for that kind of cost saving (looking at at least $800 NZ for a named brand) I'd consider it

[smiddy 76]

No probs, will look when home.

[smiddy 76]

CSKS-auto parts store.

Aliexpress

[smiddy 76]

Bit out with total costs, was year ago.

Paid NZ$ 221 for unit $178 shipping, $59 gst.

$459.45 to the door.

I think you can get cheaper shipping options, mine was Fed Ex, was fast.

[jon dee 500]

Hiya... I got one from HZ Racing via Aliexpress about 18 moths back. Prices have gone up a bit since then, but looked just like the one pictured above only painted black. OEM type connections both sides and same cast end tanks. HZ are actually a manufacturer rather than a parts store, so you can get good answers to your questions if you have any. Fitted up without any problems.

I ordered an HZ alloy lower charge pipe also but never fitted it as getting the OEM one out looked to be more hassle than it was worth at the rime. So if you are after a deal on the pipe let me know  

Cheers...

Edited April 19, 2021 by jon dee
Just felt like an edit...

[Ninjaspartan 23]

I purchased a 5inch intercooler fom Aliexpress. Quality was pretty good. I did need to remove some of the pastic behind the front bumper to fit it. 

However if you see upgraded turbos in your future the 5 inch alliexpress intercooler is too small. 

[Herbmiester 923]

I used an AMS copy from Ali Express, really well made end tanks. No complaints.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

On 4/19/2021 at 9:03 PM, Ninjaspartan said:

I purchased a 5inch intercooler fom Aliexpress. Quality was pretty good. I did need to remove some of the pastic behind the front bumper to fit it. 

However if you see upgraded turbos in your future the 5 inch alliexpress intercooler is too small. 

I have a spare set of rebuilt stock turbos (which I may get rebuilt into TD04 sizes, but my main interest is keeping the boost in an efficient range for the turbo if I do upgrade). 

 

[smiddy 76]

That's a feasible option, but may cost$ for machining if you can find someone willing to do the work.

I have stuck with TD03 units, 5mm size upgrade on comp wheel, billet 14t with stock sized, but 9 blade, (stock is 11) turbine. Also internal thrusts and coller sizing to 04 specs.

Around 35% more flow than stock.

9 blade turbine wheel and shaft is 25g lighter than the 11 blade.

Same spec as RB ones.

I think ideal for 15-20 lb boost ranges.

 

[HalfJobHarry 106]

2 hours ago, smiddy said:

That's a feasible option, but may cost$ for machining if you can find someone willing to do the work.

I have stuck with TD03 units, 5mm size upgrade on comp wheel, billet 14t with stock sized, but 9 blade, (stock is 11) turbine. Also internal thrusts and coller sizing to 04 specs.

Around 35% more flow than stock.

9 blade turbine wheel and shaft is 25g lighter than the 11 blade.

Same spec as RB ones.

I think ideal for 15-20 lb boost ranges.

 

Interesting, did you get that work done locally? I've had some ludicrous quotes for any kind of turbo work here. Was thinking of sending the spare set I have out to America for rework. 

Is that increased flow number from some kind of test data? I'd not really considered changing anything on the stock units as was struggling to get my head around how more flow could come 'from nothing' without sacrificing something else...but then I'd put my turbo knowledge in the 'know the basics but not much else level'.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

On 4/19/2021 at 8:35 PM, jon dee said:

Hiya... I got one from HZ Racing via Aliexpress about 18 moths back. Prices have gone up a bit since then, but looked just like the one pictured above only painted black. OEM type connections both sides and same cast end tanks. HZ are actually a manufacturer rather than a parts store, so you can get good answers to your questions if you have any. Fitted up without any problems.

I ordered an HZ alloy lower charge pipe also but never fitted it as getting the OEM one out looked to be more hassle than it was worth at the rime. So if you are after a deal on the pipe let me know  

Cheers...

Good looking store actually....I'm thinking I'll go with this guy if I can get a good shipping price. At the price those downpipes look mighty attractive too...but then I'd have to drop my subframe...and I'm really not wanting to do that just yet. 

Re the lower charge pipe....I don't see that on the store...you talking about the bit from the intercooler outlet that goes up to the charge pipe proper? 

[jon dee 500]

2 hours ago, HalfJobHarry said:

Re the lower charge pipe....I don't see that on the store...you talking about the bit from the intercooler outlet that goes up to the charge pipe proper? 

That's the one. I actually talked HZ into making them as the only alloy lower charge pipes I could find at the time were out of Europe and mega expensive. It plugs straight into the intercooler OEM style outlet and gives a full 2.5" pipe up to the upper charge pipe silicone coupler. I didn't install it as you have to dismantle a lot of stuff to get the factory pipe out and install the alloy one. Only issue I could see with it is that HZ can't get inside the pipe to clean up the welds so the impossible to reach ones will have a few dags. Here is a link... https://www.aliexpress.com/store/112612?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000061.1.5dbd6d42roKoQC

Ill install it if I ever have to take the radiator out, but seeing as my car already had a radiator replacement a couple of years back, hopefully that will not be for a while.

Cheers...

[HalfJobHarry 106]

18 hours ago, jon dee said:

That's the one. I actually talked HZ into making them as the only alloy lower charge pipes I could find at the time were out of Europe and mega expensive. It plugs straight into the intercooler OEM style outlet and gives a full 2.5" pipe up to the upper charge pipe silicone coupler. I didn't install it as you have to dismantle a lot of stuff to get the factory pipe out and install the alloy one. Only issue I could see with it is that HZ can't get inside the pipe to clean up the welds so the impossible to reach ones will have a few dags. Here is a link... https://www.aliexpress.com/store/112612?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000061.1.5dbd6d42roKoQC

Ill install it if I ever have to take the radiator out, but seeing as my car already had a radiator replacement a couple of years back, hopefully that will not be for a while.

Cheers...

Ah yes.....I see. I'll have a look when I'm in there and make an assessment  

I've ordered the intercooler......I'll do a comparison of my before and after logs for both IAT and WGDC ....I've no doubt the IAT will reduce but it's the before and after on the WGDC I'm keen to see...as even if the charge is denser / less timing , my feeling is the turbos are going to have to work harder to make up a couple of psi pressure drop.... I have plenty of before logs to compare with. 

 

 

[jon dee 500]

That will be an interesting exercise. The internet tells me that there are  number of places where the air/gas flow through the N54 intake and exhaust are compromised by packaging requirements. Air filter, inlets, outlets, intercooler, charge pipe, downpipes and catback exhaust are all claimed to be restrictive by the people who sell aftermarket "solutions" that supposedly remove the restrictions and release more performance. However from what I see, all these parts are adequate for the factory design performance target and intended usage. The claimed shortcomings only become obvious when owners  begin modifying their vehicles to attain performance levels well beyond factory. Nothing wrong with that... I am one of those owners

My understanding is that the turbos have to overcome the total intake pressure drop from the entry of the cold air intake to the intake manifold. So anything that reduces the turbo intake or discharge pressure drop from stock levels will free up some power. The attached graphs are a little bit interesting, although they are old and I am certain that current aftermarket intercoolers will all improve on the OEM version. Lowering the charge temperature is always beneficial as it lowers the risk of detonation allowing more timing for more power. I have seen graphs showing that on a long 4th (?) gear pull,  the rise in IAT over the course of the pull was substantially reduced by an aftermarket cooler compared to the OEM unit.

However, a bit of research after I bought my intercooler shows that in a temperate climate such as NZ, for normal road use an upgraded intercooler offers very little benefit. So it is a bit like paying extra for premium quality tyres... you may never need the extra performance, but it is nice to know that it is there if you ever need it

Cheers...

[jon dee 500]

Thought I would add this one just for the sake of the comments

Cheers...

[Ninjaspartan 23]

Interresting to see how high the pressure drop is on some of those intercoolers.

Wonder how much these Aliexpress intercoolers drop charge pressure by? 🤔
 

 

 

[smiddy 76]

Good article here.

intercooler sizings.htm

[jon dee 500]

13 hours ago, Ninjaspartan said:

Interesting to see how high the pressure drop is on some of those intercoolers.

Wonder how much these Aliexpress intercoolers drop charge pressure by? 🤔

Making a guess with absolutely no evidence to back it up, I would think that the pressure drop across a typical Chinese 335i intercooler would be similar to or a little less than across the OEM unit. Over the last few years intercoolers with fabricated end tanks have pretty much disappeared and current versions all use the (now generic) cast end tanks for the stepped intercoolers. The popularity of the Chinese units suggests that they do actually offer some performance improvement over OEM, but does not throw any light on whether it is obtained by reducing the pressure drop, increasing heat transfer, or some combination of both.

Dyno testing under controlled conditions with data logging of relevant parameters (as per the graphs above) would be the only way to know for sure, and that needs enough fans to simulate intercooler airflow at road speeds. Probably WGDC from a street pull would be close enough

Cheers...

[smiddy 76]

Been well known for a long time many of the US brands, VRSF would stand out, have there products produced in China/ Asia.

Charge pipes, inlets, outlets, down pipes, catch cans, are almost identical via Ali express as from US retailers.

American aftermarket car part companies, have done deals with asian manufractures to produce what would have been their IP.

That starts off nice and well, container loads of US company branded parts, ( say N54) are sold via the US outlets, as these parts perform, the demand is huge.

Then what happens and this is common and bit VRSF and others on the arse, the lack of quality control of production. Large orders are placed to meet growing sales demand.

Quality is poor, crap welds and the worst, poor/ non fitment, even with LHD.

Happening also, the IP which is impossible to control once manufacturing starts, has leaked to smaller but capable producers who enter the market via internet sales, cutting the original design IP holder and market with similar if not the same product, at half the cost.

Having said that, could not be happier with my, i believe, Wagner stepped 5 inch clone, certainly made an impact on my cars torque values, low to mid range, with zero perceivable lag.

 

 

[jon dee 500]

From various comments I have seen on vendors sites, it seems very likely that many of the companies who actually "manufacture" their own intercoolers buy their end tanks and cores from specialist suppliers and then weld them together. Those specialist suppliers could be in the US or they could be in China. Other vendors just short circuit the process by buying the finished article from China and put their sticker on the box, as you say. The art is in selecting the right core for the application, and that seems to be the difficult part... balancing pressure drop and heat transfer to obtain the best result.

A lot of reading leads me to believe that a maximum pressure drop of 3psi across the IC is about as much as you want, and a power gain of 20whp is about the maximum you can expect from an aftermarket IC. On a 300whp car 20hp is a little under 7% gain and that will only be felt briefly at around 6000rpm. Not to be sneezed at of course, but most engines don't spend a lot of time at 6000rpm unless you are doing a looooooooong burnout  

The real world benefits are found further down in the rev range where keeping the IAT down allow the turbos to make the same power with less effort. Or if you like, more power with the same effort. Fast cruising, uphill driving or just pressing on in the twisties while riding the fat part of the torque curve... that's when your upgraded IC will be doing its job and keeping your engine happy. At least that was the thinking behind my decision to put one on my car. Can't say I noticed any difference that I could put down to the IC. Not like that other "plus 20hp" CAI mod that you know is working because it makes more noise  

Cheers...

[smiddy 76]

On 4/22/2021 at 2:09 PM, HalfJobHarry said:

Ah yes.....I see. I'll have a look when I'm in there and make an assessment  

I've ordered the intercooler......I'll do a comparison of my before and after logs for both IAT and WGDC ....I've no doubt the IAT will reduce but it's the before and after on the WGDC I'm keen to see...as even if the charge is denser / less timing , my feeling is the turbos are going to have to work harder to make up a couple of psi pressure drop.... I have plenty of before logs to compare with. 

 

 

I have spare hanger bolts you can have if your new unit does not have them.

[jon dee 500]

2 hours ago, smiddy said:

I have spare hanger bolts you can have if your new unit does not have them.

Interested. I just reused the factory screws but I wasn'r super happy with how much thread engagement they had. Do these "hanger bolts" match the factory thread or do you have to drill the factory thread out before running these in ? Then I guess just a washer and a M6 locknut to hold the IC in place ?

Cheers...