F80 M3 Base audio system upgrade

[Neal 543]

Have recently changed my e46 m3 for an F80 so are inspired to do another audio build.
 

My previous system evolved over a 5 year period was raspberry pi based and was controlled by the bmw Nav head unit. Had dsp and 2 x components speakers front and back and a ski pass vented subwoofer. Audio was digital to dsp and music was mainly from lossless Flac cd rips. Amps were 110 rms x 4 class AB and 600 rms class D on bass. System was tuned to run up to 80% of amplifier power to avoid clipping. For a car audio system it sounded quite good.

Move forward 14 years in tech the F80 is far better in terms of taking most forms of usb / Bluetooth/ DVD audio sources. This one has NTB id4 which is the last of the text based menu system and the build is 6 months too early to get the newer gui interface and CarPlay/ Android auto software.

The F80 I have has been imported so spec is interesting. Has connected bmw modules, can self park , lane control etc but has only the base audio system for some reason. But from my point of view it’s ideal for an audio upgrade as not too many speakers to replace.

This thread will be about uplifting the audio system to above HK level.

Pic courtesy of Pete 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Neal
Pic

[Neal 543]

So with the base audio the car has a total of 6 speakers . Each door has one 100 mm driver so four in total. These run full range so do treble as well. No dedicated tweeters in this system ☹️

Under seat  woofers on base audio have a smaller 6.5 inch woofer.

Amp wise the NTB head unit connects to a box called Active Sound Design. This has a 4 channel amplifier and also has a synthetic car engine sound that is mixed with the audio.

The sound curve is Bose esk so it has boosted treble and bass. Sound lacks clarity, highs are missing and bass is centred around kick drum. However, either the door position it does image quite well.

The NTB Ida head unit seems quite versatile. It can be coded for various audio setups with a combination of both analogue two wire 4 channel output to most25 fibre optic based multi channel audio as used in the HK logic 7 systems.

The key for me will be finding a coded version that produces a flat unequalised output but still does things like audio steering the sound for parking sensors and the other systems in the bmw that have an audio input.

Audio input wish I’ll be using usb audio inputs so 256 gig thumb drive with 8000 ish lossless tracks and phone via snap in adapter which is also usb audio. It has other sources such as dvd / cd and enhanced Bluetooth. Although enhanced Bluetooth really means it’s just the basic audio streaming protocol and none of the later aptx or apple atmos / lossless enabled standards.

 

 

 

 

[m325i 709]

1. What is your home audio setup?
2. I know there are a million posts, but as one of the longest e46 owners here, what are your impressions of the 'upgrade'?
3. Congrats! Good colour

[Neal 543]

Home home systems aren’t exactly reference systems but aren’t bad either

lounge

Kenwood kd650 turntable, SME 3009 tone arm. NZ made Mclaren 603 /703 pre and power amp, Marantz sacd player , squeezebox with Sabre ESS 6018 dac. Wharfedale Mach 9s

TV 

yamaha A2a , wharfedale crs9 x 4

Mach 5 centre. uhd bluray and android tv.

garage

kickarse old school 100w Yamaha receiver with Wharfedale Mach 7s. marantz 67se CD player. iPhone dac.

 

The e46 was a good challenge and mine had the active 10 speaker hifi system. Good on paper but easily out done by any mid range aftermarket systems of the time in my humble opinion.

Spent the best part of three years doing improvements, some where unnecessary such as getting 14 gauge speaker cable to the front doors, ( e46 mid bass wire is quite a good size already) 

Others such as digital audio source straight to a dsp had the largest gains in uplift , zero system noise at full volume and only one stage of digital to analogue conversion.

Ended up transforming the sound from the e46. More toward true hifi but also with a significant amounts of volume on tap over basic system.

I laughed when I put the stock system back in before trading it. The difference was so marked and underwhelming.

But in hindsight there is a shorter path to uplifting e46s. Will take the learnings and apply to the f80 and not sweat the smaller stuff that I did before.

 

 

[isis 16]

Have been following your previous sound upgrade on the E46 and looking forward to see what you do here! I'm at two minds on trading up/down from an e46 M3 to an F80. Have test driven a few and love the power and refinement, however jumping back into the 46 always makes me doubt my decision. I seem to like the 'rawness' and sound of the 46. What are your initial thoughts/feedback/experience to date with the F80 vs 46?

[m325i 709]

13 hours ago, isis said:

Have been following your previous sound upgrade on the E46 and looking forward to see what you do here! I'm at two minds on trading up/down from an e46 M3 to an F80. Have test driven a few and love the power and refinement, however jumping back into the 46 always makes me doubt my decision. I seem to like the 'rawness' and sound of the 46. What are your initial thoughts/feedback/experience to date with the F80 vs 46?

#metoo

Done quite a few track laps in f80s. Sick fun. But on the street one 'braaaaap' and you could be locked up. 

Great looking cars, and practical 4 doors. But they aren't as 'cool' are they. e46 now classic status. (M2 is also a consideration).

[Neal 543]

It’s a hard comparison at this stage as owned and drove the e46 m3 about 130,000 km  / 11 years verse 2000 km so far on the f80.

The e46 felt so connected to the driver and the road. Ergonomics are great and s54 is such a great sounding engine and a nice level of progressive power.

However, the F80 is more modern and I do need a 4 door these days.  Power wise my M3 was around the 180kw at the wheels mark verse somewhere between 310 -330.  There is a massive difference and it’s easy to have the back brake traction off the throttle.The f80 is a very stiff car to the point where I do have trouble with wheelspin coming out of my driveway. Ive had time do a 3 point turn and reverse up a couple of times. 

What I do like is 3 settings for suspension, engine and steering weight and having two steering wheel buttons with saved settings, M1 commute, M2 … smile 😊 

Still getting used to it and trying to stop those e46 things you do but looking forward to a track drivers day to explore my new limits.

I didn’t keep the e46 as budget wise I’d made a refresh list that was similar to the cost difference of the F80 and I’m guilty of have a couple of other vehicles that just don’t get used ( or finished )

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Neal

[Neal 543]

Ordered a couple of parts to get the ball rolling.

Front stage will be 3 way speakers to replace the current 160mm ish woofer and 100mm mid speakers.

Will probably go two way rear component speakers or higher end coax style  for Spotify DJ daughter that sites in the back.

Front Tweeter mounts in A pillars ( F30 / F80 Harmon Kardon window trim ) to make mounting front tweeters easier and look factory post install. Part no 51337323509 51337323510 

Iphone 6 Snap in adaptor / cradle ( new ones being sold cheap on ebay at the moment as at 9/2022 )) for Iphone / USB / Charging / Connected APPS. I think I'll need to mod the plastic for later Iphones to fit 

On the list for future purchase

F30 / F80 Harmon Kardon black mid bass speaker covers for front and rear doors appear to be acoustically more open that Base or Hifi speaker covers ) 

F30 / F80 Harmon Kardon rear door Tweeter covers and mounts

F30 / F80 under seat Logic 7 or HK woofer enclosures to drop new 200 mm bass units. This will replace the current base audio 160mm bass speakers.

[Neal 543]

Door trims arrived today.

Been looking into more details for front door components. Looks like enough room to mount crossovers within door card which is promising.  Also looking at active speaker options. 
 

Looks like F series only run one set of speaker connections to door, but it looks like there is a spare socket available on the front doors to put in two quad lock sockets and pins in. So if I run another set of speaker wires from boot location to doors I would have the option of running active front speakers.

Ironically the quad lock connectors / sockets will only run .75 mm cable which at 4 meters gets a bit marginal at 60 watt RMS at 4 ohms. I’m debating this in my mind as there is also an area in the door connector that a speaker wire could run through.

Front door speakers would will either be 3 or 4 ohm 100mm components rated at at least 60 rms.

 

Compared with e46/ e39 / 38 BMWs which are wired for active 3 way speaker cables and have a decent mid bass speaker wire gauge the F80 wiring is quite underwhelming.

 

 

[Moupe 55]

On 9/8/2022 at 9:50 PM, isis said:

Have been following your previous sound upgrade on the E46 and looking forward to see what you do here! I'm at two minds on trading up/down from an e46 M3 to an F80. Have test driven a few and love the power and refinement, however jumping back into the 46 always makes me doubt my decision. I seem to like the 'rawness' and sound of the 46. What are your initial thoughts/feedback/experience to date with the F80 vs 46?

 

On 9/9/2022 at 11:48 AM, m325i said:

#metoo

Done quite a few track laps in f80s. Sick fun. But on the street one 'braaaaap' and you could be locked up. 

Great looking cars, and practical 4 doors. But they aren't as 'cool' are they. e46 now classic status. (M2 is also a consideration).

Don't do it! Keep the E46 M3 forever! I only have one regret in life and that was selling mine!

Four years ago I sold my E46 to an enthusiast (who won't sell it back to me no matter what I offer him haha) and my X5 and bought an F80 M3. At first I loved the F80 but my excitement for it quickly waned. The E46 was under covers and on a charger - brought out on a perfectly sunny day to head up South Head or around the Hunua Ranges. It was an experience every time. Whereas, the F80 was a daily as well as a weekend car. I think that was the mistake. It lost its specialness since I was in it every day. Plus I went from a manual to DCT. DCT is great and all...but it's not a manual. I think the clincher for me was the sound it made - the exhaust note leaves a lot to be desired (at least when compared to the S54).

Anyway, I'm only being part serious. The F80 is a fantastic car. But all I'm saying is that if I could go back in time 4 years, I would punch myself in the throat for even thinking of selling it

The silver lining is that selling it indirectly got me into a Z4 M Coupe (which also has the S54 if you aren't familiar with it) and a 1M which I still have  And I will 100% NEVER sell them. I have told my partner that if I ever even utter a word about selling (which I won't) she has full rights to hit me over the head with the frypan.

  

Edited September 19, 2022 by Moupe

[m325i 709]

8 minutes ago, Moupe said:

Whereas, the F80 was a daily as well as a weekend car. I think that was the mistake. It lost its specialness since I was in it every day.
  

I still daily e46 ! 

Good points, thanks for reminding me. F80s do look great, and the power is awesome. Both is the answer.

[Moupe 55]

1 minute ago, m325i said:

I still daily e46 ! 

Good points, thanks for reminding me. F80s do look great, and the power is awesome. Both is the answer.

Having both is definitely the answer .

If you do get an F80 and it has the stock exhaust, as a quick hack - set the exhaust flaps to be permanently open! Improves it a lot (still not as good as it should be but it's certainly better). I had a dongle that permanently plugged into the ODB port and you could control it via the OBC stalk.

[Neal 543]

Thanks for the post but I did trade the e46 m3. My choice was basically around the space and also around what vehicles I keep and also the m3 is used as a daily.

I did start the list of things that you’d do to a e46 with 180,000 and had just had all the stone chips and bumpers done to bring paint back to a high standard. Car had been BMW serviced since I brought it at 48,000 km and did anything that came during that time. Ironically car had recent set of PS4S and I’d also done front rotors. 
 

Would have meant moving on a limited addition motorcycle and a project that’s on my bucket list to finish. I had a health scare earlier this year that’s made me determined to do certain things. Riding again is one of them and the bike brings a level of enjoyment that I don’t get driving.

[Moupe 55]

3 hours ago, Neal said:

Thanks for the post but I did trade the e46 m3. My choice was basically around the space and also around what vehicles I keep and also the m3 is used as a daily.

I did start the list of things that you’d do to a e46 with 180,000 and had just had all the stone chips and bumpers done to bring paint back to a high standard. Car had been BMW serviced since I brought it at 48,000 km and did anything that came during that time. Ironically car had recent set of PS4S and I’d also done front rotors. 
 

Would have meant moving on a limited addition motorcycle and a project that’s on my bucket list to finish. I had a health scare earlier this year that’s made me determined to do certain things. Riding again is one of them and the bike brings a level of enjoyment that I don’t get driving.

Totally understand. Everyone's situation is different. And the F80 M3 is still a phenomenal car. I just still talk about my E46 M3 like it was the best girlfriend I ever had but left for a younger model who I didn't get on with. Regrets... haha

This bike of yours sounds interesting? What is it? And what is the project? 

(Also sorry for hijacking your thread lol)

[Neal 543]

Project is a Mk1 classic mini that was a circuit car in the 70s -90s. The idea was to convert to road based Motorsport and my take on a 60s classic racer. Power wise it has a 1275cc a series engine with a turbo and race gearbox / lsd. I got caught with re-vin process before getting everything certed for road legal use.

Bike is a 2001 Ducati 748r which previous owner built it for track racing. I brought it after 3 races / 200 km and put road bits back on. It was mainly used for leisure riding, but also speed trials and hill climb competitions. Has an amazing sound and quite a bit of power for a 750cc Ltwin.

 

 

 

 

On 9/20/2022 at 10:12 AM, Moupe said:

Totally understand. Everyone's situation is different. And the F80 M3 is still a phenomenal car. I just still talk about my E46 M3 like it was the best girlfriend I ever had but left for a younger model who I didn't get on with. Regrets... haha

This bike of yours sounds interesting? What is it? And what is the project? 

(Also sorry for hijackin

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Neal

[Neil McCauley 394]

748R's are awesome - absolutely ironclad values too. Ohlins or Showa forks?

[Moupe 55]

That Ducati is beeeeautiful! Love it in yellow too. Such a contrast to the usual red.

The Mini sounds like a fun build too!

[Neal 543]

48 minutes ago, Neil McCauley said:

748R's are awesome - absolutely ironclad values too. Ohlins or Showa forks?

It’s the first version with showa. Engine spec is close to 748RS with quite a bit of corse internals. These also run titanium conrods amongst other goodies 😀

[Neal 543]

Been looking into the subwoofer aspects of the build. F80 doesn’t have ski pass system of e46 or e90 but the back of the seats aren’t solid metal backed like the old car. 
 

Keen to reuse the old Boston Acoustics SPG555 and looked into a false boot floor build. Whilst the underfloor area has enough volume it’s not deep enough for the spg555. False floor would need to sit 15 cm above current level. 
 

Tried the old box from the e46 and it fits quite in the f80. Will modify the old box a bit as speaker face the rear seats. Deep is ok as I’d still be able to use under boot floor storage area if needed.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Neal

[Neal 543]

The old sub is certainly still very capable even these days and runs neodymium magnets, which makes it lighter that triple stacked subs  (12kg verse 20kg plus )

Roughly has the surface area of a 13 inch sub. Has a massive 3.75 inch cone travel ( on a ported box ) and with 1000 rms can lay down mid to high 130 dbs. It can move some serious air.

I’m running it in a sealed box of 1 cubic foot which is more sound quality aligned rather the running a ported enclosure . To help with bottom end  below 45 hz also running a passive radiator which is a speaker without a motor. This helps with the bottom end and the F3 -3db point becomes 23hz rather than in the 30s. Gives a nice flat response on the low end.

Needed to make some minor adjustments to the enclosure. Adding 6mm to the bottom as the sun will sit against the backseat. By doing so the top will sit high enough to be against the boot cross member. In addition looking to anchor the sub to the boot tie downs. With the F80 seat backs being a basic frame Want to ensure that the subbox can’t break through the back set in an accident situation.

Also used a router and opened up the sides of the enclosure to vent the bass when up against the back seats.

Need to find some speaker carpet to match the f80 boot or some other wrap

[Neal 543]

Not much progress other than sub box ready for carpet and made some brackets to lock sub into place.

Went to order speakers last week but the focal K2 es100ks have gone up 50% since Black Friday and are closer to $1k a pair. Were $650. So would be roughly $2.7k for 2  pairs plus underseat woofers.

I don’t think the price / performance is there with the focal k2s at new prices so looking at alternatives.

Amazing how small 100mm component speakers are at a price premium. 

[Neal 543]

Haven’t moved on speaker choices. Focals es100ks have dropped back down a bit in price and the underseat woofers are back to orginal discounted pricing. 

Spent some time looking into power cable path all though ironically haven’t sorted Amp choice. Either way it will need either one or two 4 gauge feed’s depending on single multi channel amp or an additional dedicated sub woofer amp. 

Decided that in boot latch area will be the path and I can reuse e46 power harness I’d made.

Found that there is enough room for the cable run behind boot carpet trim and used a curtain wire as a pilot cable. 
 

Also checked the positive battery terminal out for feed and will need to use a different terminator due to the design of it. Fuse(S) for first part of amp power will go against side of car and allow enough room for battery replacement when needed.

[Neal 543]

Ordered some second hand F3x Harmon Kardon underseat 200mm woofers and enclosures  These will replace the base audio woofer enclosures and their 17cm woofer. The base audio woofers sound a bit Bose esk with an overblown 80-90hz bass region and then roll off quickly. Will put in a box so I can revert system to standard as I did with last build.

Hk enclosures have larger air volume than base audio although both vent into side sills. Apparently the combination of enclosure plus side sill gives a enclosure equivalent of 0.6 cubic feet ( info from Bill Fitzs on another forum  )   The HK woofer size is ideally suited to that size. It’s close to 8 ohms and is run to about 125 watts on factory amp.

Going to try and improve on the HK woofers although they do come up well and a number of drop in upgrades actually don’t model as well. Have chosen new after market SQ oriented 8 inch drivers and looking to run these from 55hz to 150-200hz. These will get roughly up to 300 watts so can be driven to mechanical limits with low distortion. The unknown is if I can get the factory grill to fit. Going to be tight fit !
TBA LOL 😀

Also brought F30 HK speaker grills for door midbass and rear tweeters. These look to be far more open than Stock / HiFi option 

First picture, base audio underseat woofer , Second HK.

 

 

 

 

[Neal 543]

Unfortunately new 8 inch driver didn’t work out, was too close to seat rail for comfort. Will try HK underseat woofers.

FYI the distance between underseat woofer enclosure mounting face and seat rail is approximately 38mm. looks like any conventional speaker replacement limit would be a something that fits with no more than a 12mm spacer without raising the seat. Some people have managed an AD W800 neo driver which has 56mm depth, 18mm spacer , but it sounds like they raise the seat height with spacers on the mounts. Would require Cert process in NZ.

Was interesting to compare HK subwoofer enclosure with 8 inch driver to base audio with 6.5 inch driver. Base audio is quite light and flimsy and baffle to side sill vent quite restrictive. HK has more volume, but is substantially stronger. Wouldn’t recommend base audio enclosure with 8 inch driver fitted. Suspect it would vibrate badly as per is added.

 

 

[Neal 543]

NZ focals es100ks have dropped down in price again 

My final choice was focals for door components as price dropped. But if they hadn’t option would have been other companies drivers. Have two sets coming in March / April.
 

Once they arrive will sort spacers / adapters.Would love to have a 3D printer at this point, but suspect I’ll use painted MDF in the doors and work out how to get the tweeter fitting in HK mounts.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Neal