Im looking to upgrade my E61 to an F11 and might need some help to do it wisely

[Willem 3]

I introduce myself as a new member as I have not been visiting the forum since 2018 when I bought this car. Now I do as I need some help selecting another one.

This is my E61, a 530i. 6 cylinder in line engine delivering 272 HP. It is not an M-sport but the previous owner (Japanese) pimped it as if it is. M sport steering wheel, M sport front-spoiler, wheels, etc.  it was the fastest one I could find at the time that I test drove a few around Auckland. In 2018 as I needed a car to get my newborn daughter out of  hospital to take her camping on the Great Barrier Island, which we did and was a great experience, she loved it

It had driven only 55000 km then, now 95000. It was imported from Japan. I am a motorcyclist, never had been driving cars. Always drove fast bikes. Thought a Beamer might be the solution to my prejudice that cars are slow and boring. And a lot of things that Motorcycles are not (space consuming, always standing in traffic jams, cannot bend and tilt into curves, feel like dancing

Nevertheless I was mighty proud with this Touring. I have always has a soft spot for BMW, and this one had a small sticker on it "BMW Freude am Fahren" And I thought that this apparently somewhat controversial design was stunning.

Well it has been a mixed experience, though the outcome is that I fell in love with it. The practicality to take your family everywhere in a cool looking cool feeling vehicle that accelerated and drove like a dream. The negatives were about things I learned along the way, that all the sensors and computer steered electronics can be disturbing your peace of mind. In particular a problem that lit up the screen : "Engine fault reduced power"  3 new butterfly valves and a lot of diagnostics and money went into it, and it still is not solved. Every now and then the same notification still lights up. However now it does not disturb me anymore, the car drives fine.

Now I am looking for a replacement. This one is 18 years old now and I feel that it might get a bit more unreliable and that the investments to save it would not be economical.  (lots of new rubber and other stuff that you might expect with a car that is stored outside in NZ's car unfriendly climate deteriorating and sooner or later needs replacement).

Would you guys want to help me to choose?

My criteria:

1) I think of buying another Touring

But I'm open to any sensible suggestion. This one I bought at your recommendation, while I thought I wanted to get myself an X5. I think it is practical, we still camp and it is spacious. And it is a great surfboard carrier too. And it drives so well, which you Beamer-lovers do know, that binds us together. A pleasure whenever you get of the boring highway. And on the highway she is relaxed and comfortable as well.

2) The power of the engine is a joy, I would not mind finding another similar powered one, although I do not know how a 2 or 2.5 litre turbo engine is to drive.

On Trade-me I cannot find another 530i. There are 523i's, 528i's and every now and then a 535i and the times they have changed, there is no longer a direct connection between the volume of the engine cylinders and the type number. So I do not seem to be able to figure out what engine delivers what power and torque. On the specification sites I can find the 523i is not specified for the 2000 or 2490 cc engines with which they come. Apparently there are also 523i's with a 6 in line 3 liter engine, but I have not seen any advertised. Could any of you refer me to a website where these specifications are to be found?

3) And then: what is wise, which type/engine configuration is kind of reliable.

I did all the maintenance on my motorcycles myself. But motorcycles do not have km's of sensor wires laying around somewhere. So I think I'll ask some help to service this one, and that should not be too crazy expensive preferably.

I would like one that does not flicker up with electronic problems that always seem to be there and cannot always be solved. You-tube has told me the F11 / F10 is more reliable than the previous generation, from April 2012 (before that problems with the distribution chain they say). I had all the regular E61 stuff, changed waterpump, dynamo, starter engine, and a few batteries. And am constantly aware that the sunroof drainage needs to be checked as to not flood the boot. Is that a realistic otion?

4) Value for money:

My budget is anything between 10.000 and 25.000 (and more if it is really worth it, however I do like value for money and within those limits there seems to be enough choice. I think it is top that they come from Japan with very few KM on the clock. However I do not know whether the 535i (2013) which is on trade-me with 130.000km is any more likely to get trouble of wear and tear than a similar age car with 70.000 km.

5 ) I think the M sport's look really cool. But the regular versions do not look bad either in my eyes.

 

 

Thanks for your help Willem

 

[Eagle 1517]

Cant help with what to choose but any model can have electrical problems, some better than others but with modern cars being complex these days its luck of the draw imo. Getting a PPI done on a good example and budgeting for some preventative maintenance is the main thing.

Cars you are looking at are 10+ years old so id argue the k's aren't that reliable of an indicator. You can have high running hours, lots of stop\starts and short trips but low millage. The best vehicles ive owned were NZ new ones that were mostly used on long distance highway driving\had higher k's. Heat is the enemy so a cooler engine and less heat cycles goes along way imo. Higher k's have a more likely hood of parts being replaced\service history, although cosmetically generally are worse off to varying degrees.

 

 

[Hanna 0]

Had a look in person at the 535i with 130000 on the clock. (on Trade me)

First impression: mechanically sound car, tyres worn to the thread, (Owner bought a new car).

Has had regular services yearly. Impression overall: drives well, interior quite worn (13000km and a brown sand colored interior and the owners used this car as a daily vehicle not necessarily paid too much attention to keeping it neat.

130000 km on the clock.

I have 2 questions to the Bimmer forum

Does anybody dare to predict when the drive-train is going to be too worn to maintain?

And what big costs are ahead that can be predicted.

How much maintenance budget would be sensible to set aside until then.

I plan to drive around 10000/year.

 

Thanks for any input

Willem

 

 

 

[balancerider 702]

Welcome @Hanna. It looks like it might be a Singapore import which are potentially more prone to electrical issues due to the humidity.
Spec looks decent albeit a bit ‘elderly’ - Chrome line exterior with green, I quite like the tan interior though and it has comfort seats which are great. Sunroof can fail expensively though it makes the interior feel nice. May well be due a set of shocks and springs (rear air suspension) at 10 years. The N55 engine is mechanically sound if serviced and ancillaries seem more solid than the N54 that preceded it. Plenty of these engines above 250k km in Europe / US, unlikely that drivetrain will be the major issue with it.

[Eagle 1517]

2 hours ago, balancerider said:

May well be due a set of shocks and springs (rear air suspension) at 10 years

It did mention they had been replaced, springs im assuming

17 hours ago, Hanna said:

Does anybody dare to predict when the drive-train is going to be too worn to maintain?

Drivetrain should be one of the more durable bits. Transmission can develop issues but much of that depends if its been serviced and how its been used.

Id say the engine ancillaries are the weak link as far as costs. If you google N54 engine problems you will get an idea what can happen. Most of the rest is just normal wear and tear which a pre purchase inspection and service history should reveal.  

[balancerider 702]

3 hours ago, Eagle said:

It did mention they had been replaced, springs im assuming

Id say the engine ancillaries are the weak link as far as costs. If you google N54 engine problems you will get an idea what can happen. 

Oops didn’t spot the suspension comment. Apparently aftermarket air springs are decent and not horrendously expensive.

fairly certain the f10/f11 were n55 engined from the get go

[freaknout 47]

Very very capable motor.

Tourings will have the airbags and compressor gubbins for rear self-leveling. The bags can and do wear, replacing both is perhaps $1k? The bags aren't expensive but the labour  might be depending on other equipment, like active anti-roll, etc. Someone more tech than me can help here.

N55's generally pretty reliable but they do need to be maintained like any BMW this age. Regularly servicing, oil changes, engine plastics, etc. Charge pipe worth replacing/upgrading for piece of mind. You're had an e61 and the f11 isn't too different, depending on spec.

If someone can suggest a good BMW independant in Auckland I would suggest getting them to look at it before committing.

[Willem 3]

Thanks all of you balancerider, Eagle & Freaknout for your comments.

Helping me to get some understanding of what I'm asking, what is relevant to the 2012 535i engine/car.

Implementing Eagle's advice: I read the beginners guide to buying an N54 on Reddit from WhatsgoodjeffG.

I concluded: the car I tested, 2012 535i with 130K is going to need some ancillaries work soon.

The turbo's will go around 125-175 k at a cost of 3-8 k $ depending on who does it and on the price of a replacement set.

I mentioned already that the tyres look more like slicks than anything that I'd drive on NZ roads during global warming pouring down.

As far as the present owner knows the gearbox has not had an oil change around 80 k, if true not good.

Long story short, this sounds like a good time for the owner to sell it and a bad time for someone to buy it unless at a price that that maintenance can easily be done sooner rather than later. (what do you guys think is 14500 reasonable? Or hard to say as we still have a lack of info on maintenance history & present state of ancillaries such as injectors, high pressure fuel pump, water pump, oil filter house leaks, turbo seals.etc.)

That might be showing up with a PPI.

I'm not sure whether this car has a N54 (Eagle) or N55 (balance-rider) engine.

After reading the comments and Whatsgoodjeff I'm in doubt now if it is worth following up further.

I do like the 535i engine, it is so calm and quiet and has such readily power if you want.

There do not seem to be a lot of them around anymore. I had a look at BeForward.jp. There you can order a car unseen from Japan.

more than 3500 BMW's, only one 535i, a sedan, not what i'm looking for now.

Lots of 523i Tourings (2014-2018) , most of them 2000cc (do they deliver 242 HP?) black and white ones mostly, many M-sports.

All double turbo's, but with around 50-100 k, not as close to refurbishment of the ancillaries as the 535i.

Roughly for the same price. But not a 535i. (although that one is green, frogs are green, not beamers I used to think .

Love to hear what you've got to say to increase my ambiguity

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle 1517]

30 minutes ago, Willem said:

I'm not sure whether this car has a N54 (Eagle) or N55 (balance-rider) engine.

@balancerider is correct

30 minutes ago, Willem said:

As far as the present owner knows the gearbox has not had an oil change around 80 k, if true not good.

Not great but ive changed fluid on quite few older models with 'lifetime fluid', all had done over 200,000km. If its shifting good then i think you'd be fine with a service. 

30 minutes ago, Willem said:

Long story short, this sounds like a good time for the owner to sell it and a bad time for someone to buy it unless at a price that that maintenance can easily be done sooner rather than later. (what do you guys think is 14500 reasonable?

I dont really keep track of what these are actually selling for so cant help with that . With what's known about it id say its average example in general. so . They tend to be fairly cheap for a reason when they reach that age\mileage, not many people spending money on refreshing and doing preventative repairs on cars like this. You do get a fair bit of car for the money which is the appealing part i suppose.  Everyone is different when it comes to acceptable maintenance costs, but if you have to pay someone to work on it then id say a mechanical warranty is needed along with the above.

[Willem 3]

This could possibly also be an option:

https://carfromjapan.com/cheap-used-bmw-5-series-touring-2010-for-sale-63ce45ac8408573acbe527b7

65000 km 2010 I'm not sure about engine specifications 3000 cc 6 in line (great) but if turbo or injection or both 230-254 HP?

It looks like a fair deal, quite a few km left to drive until the ancillaries are predicted going to break down.

Obviously risk is I cannot see/test drive the car up front.

 

[Willem 3]

Thanks Eagle

(I did not notice any problems with the gear box)

 

Maintenance I don't mind spending money on it if it is essential.

Driving a BMW bought for a good prize saves money for maintenance. 

I do not like to drive in an unreliable car, takes away al lot of the fun for me.

(I've taken that with me from motorbikes, you cannot afford poor maintenance , your life depends on it.)

[balancerider 702]

I would probably steer clear of 523i/528i 3L engine versions. The N53 despite being naturally aspirated is more unreliable than the turbo n55 with expensive / unreliable piezo injectors and a complicated intake manifold and NOX sensor issues. Also 3 yrs older. I would go for the 535i

[GorGasm 561]

Not many available on trade-me at the moment.  Here's my picks:
 

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/bmw/523i/listing/4407845419

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/bmw/535i/listing/4391340312

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/bmw/335i/listing/4238028052

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/bmw/328i/listing/4397012724

• 523i has the N20 2.0 turbo 135kw.  Might be a bit down on power.
• 535i has the N55 3.0 turbo 225kw .
• 328i has the N20 2.0 turbo 180kw.
• 335i has the N55 3.0 turbo 225kw.

I would potentially just stay with the car you have.

[Willem 3]

Thanks GorGasm

I'd seen these cars on Trade me.

Really helpful you added the engine type and power.

It drives me nuts I do not seem to be able to find a website where I can reliably find out which cars have which engines. (I used to look at a German website, I speak German, however I have lost that web address and cannot find it back) If you have a suggestion, please let me know.

The 328 & 335 I have not considered , as I'm tall. 190 cm, and they do not "fit me" that well. I sit often with my head against the roof.

Then I really take my family camping with my Touring and need the extra space the 5 series offers:)

The 523, yes possibly somewhat under powered.

Leaving the 535i M Sport in Canterbury.

 

Compared with the green 535i in Auckland that seems a good candidate to me at first sight.

It has a lot of KM left to drive before the ancillaries will drive up costs.

It is on the South island though, some logistics to be solved. Here in Auckland I do know where to turn to do a PPI.

And it is black, I am a bit reluctant to buy a black one as Auckland is such a sunny and warm place in the summer.

It will be hot when parked , my wife is from Sweden, she hates a hot car to get into.

If it would have been white or silver (not black) I might have already been persuaded to go and have a look.

Thanks again for your suggestions,

May be I have to sit and wait a bit longer until a car appears that fits my objectives better, or until practicalities convince me to compromise on power/color/model. We are in the last stages of internal combustion engines. While good alternatives are not clearly defined yet. I am hoping hydrogen engines will develop into a real alternative. My next BMW might be my last internal combustion engine car.

 

Kind regards Willem

 

 

 

 

[GorGasm 561]

Worst thing about black cars isn't the heat, it's that they're dirty again 5 minutes after you just clean them.  It's a reasonable idea to wait for the right car.  I wouldn't settle for one in poor condition, even if it is cheap.

[balancerider 702]

Would you consider an E-class estate @Willem? Selection is a little better than the 5er, CLS shooting brake also looks good but maybe not as practical

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/mercedes-benz/e-350/listing/4317218526
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/mercedes-benz/e-350/listing/4429267980

if the clean car rebate is rolled back I imagine the used importers will start to look at bigger displacement cars again in the new year (if they aren’t already)

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by balancerider

[Willem 3]

Balance rider you suggest an E -class?

Thanks for your suggestion.Well we do have to have an open mind don't we?

I read an assessment of drivers of different brands (done in Europe).

Mercedes drivers were identified as people with a lot of money but not a lot of brains/education, who buy Mercedes to show off mainly. Wearing Rolex watches, in my opinion also hideous. Dressed to impress.

BMW was as a group of speed freaks who pay a lot of taxes through having the highest rate of speeding tickets. (and other traffic offenses such as driving through red lights and not keeping enough distance from cars in front of them. And with a higher risk to crash too.

Well I have to confess: I've paid a lot of what I call "recreation tax". Driving too fast on great roads especially through great curves.

And I do not like showing off a car for wanting to impress as having a lot of money at all. I like d my bumper sticker "BMW freude am fahren" (Joy of driving)

But never say never, Mercedes has employed a few good designers the last decade and some of their cars are very good looking. How are their engines? I honestly do not know.

Do you have positive experiences driving them. Like the sharpness of a 535i hanging in a curve on the gas? Then I might have to reconsider.

 

Kind regards Willem

 

[Willem 3]

Hi Gorgasm

Thanks for your support on sitting on the fence till the right car shows up.

And in the mean time another question:

Do you know the engine type in this* 2490 cc 532i 2010?

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/bmw/523i/listing/4295684372?bof=4fcCcAxl

I cannot find it. I hope to find a website that does help with identifying the engine in different type beamers.

Is it an N52 or N53? Eagle does not recommend the N53 based on complicated high pressure injection and injectors that are prone to fail if I quote him correctly.

Does that hold true also for the N52 (if that is the engine that is in the advertised car ?

Thanks again for your help Willem

 

[GorGasm 561]

Wikipedia has the specs of all the engines, even if the numbers don't quite match all the Japanese models.  The 2.5 is an N52.  The 2.0 turbo N20B20 would be better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series_(F10)

[Willem 3]

Hi Gorgasm

Thanks for wikipedia tip, super simple and I could not figure it out

The the engine model discussion:

 

I looked at

and at

Last but not least I found an article to compare them: https://bimmerly.com/n52-vs-n20/

 

Overall video's and article both they conclude the N52 is pretty reliable, smooth and silent engine, a typical BMW one. Off course this is a subjective thing to a certain extend. What are your concerns?

The advertised one 2010 523i has 201 HP, according to Wikipedia (523i for Asia only 2009 & 2010).

Seems an option if I cannot find a 535i with an N55 and relative low mileage.

Kind regards Willem

 

 

 

[balancerider 702]

N52 is a good engine but b25 2.5l version may feel a bit underpowered in this application as it’s a big car without heaps of low end torque. Can end up chasing oil leaks and the electric water pump can die without warning between 100-150k km.

 The E350 is nice, I preferred the diesel but the petrol V6 sounds better and both engines suit the car. Driving experience not dissimilar to a 5 series, they also have rear air suspension (at least the ones I’ve driven) and drive nicely if a little uninvolving. IMO neither a 5 series or an E class is going to make a back road blaster, they’re 5 m long and 1.8 tonnes. Even my 3 series touring feels big sometimes. 

[Willem 3]

Thanks balance-rider.

Agreeing entirely with your point of the N52 being a bit under powered for the size and weight of the car.

I did not have too high expectations of driving a car after a life on two wheels in terms of a back road blasting.

But practicalities, a daughter and camping gear and the fact that NZ roads are not the safest, drivers are over a very wide spectrum from excellent to extremely undisciplined. The roadt-oll (death/km) in Nz is as high as the worst country in Europe (Italy) So I am on 4 wheels for the time being. And the the BMW 530i was much more fun than expected.

I might need to compromise if I cannot find a suitable N55 and take your advice that the E350 is not a bad car either.

Cheers Willem

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Willem

[Apex 693]

I sympathies, I won’t ride a bike here in New Zealand traffic, I feel safer in third world countries where everyone is on a bike TBH, they have a sence of whats going on around them and motorists know how to play.

At least they drive fast in Italy, explains the statistics, here speed is attributed to less that 20% of fatalities, so that means 80% of people just suck at driving even slowly. We are so backwards as a nation that entire car loads of people die simply because they don't wear seat belts, don't maintain their cars, or still think its ok to have 7 drinks and drive. 

 

On topic. I am also in the same boat, looking at a family wagon that is fun to drive for around 20k, yet practical. Its slim picking, I would hazard that your currant car is as good as any TBH.

My list was..

Skoda Octavia VRS : Reliability issues, even from new these are commonly reported as being disastrous and has been confirmed as so by friends who own and work on them. A shame because they tick so many boxes. 

Holden Commodore VF SV6. Great chassis, cheap parts, reliable. My wife thinks they are for bogans and wont drive one. I do agree there are many shitty Commodores on the road and they do attract equally shitty people, but they sold so well for a reason!

Holden Commodore ZB. Great price, lots of car for the money... but German built so may as well buy a BMW if your going to be that committed to maintenance. At least BMW have parts support. 2.0T is thirsty in real world and has to run 95+. 

BMW F11. I haven’t seen a good one for sale as yet in the past couple of months, lots of jap imports in crap spec’s, smelling like cigarettes or just really average condition, ie, trim falling to bits, rubbers all crumbly, paint average.. Look forward to seeing a NZ new well maintained one, happy to pay a premium for that. 

Wild card for me is a Ford Mondeo Titanium, it’s a curiosity as I know they handle really well and go way faster than you think, like the BMW, it would come down to finding a good one.

Good luck with your search, it seems you are doing thorough due diligence so that’s a start, with the amount of F11 specs I can see where you can get lost.   

In the mean time, cleaning up your currant car may rekindle the romance, its not a quantum leap forward to a F11 after all.  

Edited November 22, 2023 by Apex
Grammar, likely still shocking

[GorGasm 561]

Good luck finding a well maintained NZ new F11   Or any well maintained NZ new car.

[Apex 693]

11 hours ago, GorGasm said:

Good luck finding a well maintained NZ new F11   Or any well maintained NZ new car.

I have three well maintained NZ new cars with service history books etc. 

Its no mystery or a new thing and is common knowledge that Asian imports are not maintained to high standards because they will be exported and dumped after a few years, they have no records and spend a lot of time sitting idle in traffic vs clocking up millage.

Like UK cars are full or rusty bits and Australian car were written off. 

There is a reason NZ new cars demand a premium and are more desirable.