Advice needed fairly urgently!

[BLACK DORIS 9]

Hey, need some advice about car purchasing rights.

Without naming names or tarnishing reputations (or making a long story longer)...

What are a buyers rights (private sale) when dealing with a sale that is 3/4 paid for? There was a informal contract written up and both parties signed (as well as a loose verbal arrangement re final payment). I should state here that the contract stated that the car was for sale an amount listed for first deposit and a date for final payment. This is where the loose verbal agreement was made as the final payment hinged on when funds cleared.

Had been in correspondence with seller over the agreed timeframe for payments. All payments have been made as agreed apart from a delay in the final payment.

Changes in my circumstances meant that the final payment would need to be renegotiated/discussed -generally worked out. Numerous emails and txts were unanswered (over a few weeks).

Finally had a response this week (via email) and seller is now trying to back out of sale.

What are my rights here? Car is almost completely paid for. Have tried to contact re an arrangement with limited to little response. Will be talking with seller at lunchtime tomorrow but would like to know legalities for this sort of deal before getting backed into a corner etc.

All useful advice appreciated, thanks in adv.

Rio

[pjay 8]

Citizens Advice Bureau have helped me out in the past with legalities.

[nath 130]

Unlike real property, a car has changed hands once the agreememnt has been made, verbal or otherwise. No money need change hands- in fact the buyer needent even be in possesion yet. the car is the new owner's and the seller must make arrangements to get his money

[nath 130]

lappy wont let me edit post to fix spelling etc-

and also while payment is the vital 'consideration' component in a contract, the sale is sealed once the agreement has been made. Wether you have the right to physically take the car yet or not i am unsure about.

[dubman 39]

if the car is registered under the new owner, its legally his. the best way to get all your money is without pissing him off, and make him play nice.

EDIT: Rego isnt a legal title for the ownership of your vehicle – it simply identifies who is responsible for it. sorry for the confusion. What i meant is rego indicates whose responsible for it under traffic laws.

Edited March 30, 2010 by dubman

[Silver Fox 43]

I would have thought that If you had a contract and didn't make the final payment according to the contract, then the seller would have the right to cancel said contract?

[nath 130]

Sorry I didnt read OP properly-

YEs he can take that car back.

However depending on the value of car, the law does make a few allowances. But the allowances are more trouble than just asking parents etc for the rest, or saving yourself the hassle and just having your money refunded

[huff3r 347]

if the car is registered under the new owner, its legally his. the best way to get all your money is without pissing him off, and make him play nice.

Thats not true. Anyone can change registration, and it only determines who is legally responsible for the vehicle and not who legally owns it. If this were the case i could pay $9 at a post shop and "own" any car i wanted, but rather if i did that id just get landed with all the real owners speeding fines....

[pureboiracer 0]

if the seller is allowed to revoke the contract becuase of late payment then the money that has been paid should be refunded.

[Apex 693]

I would have thought that If you had a contract and didn't make the final payment according to the contract, then the seller would have the right to cancel said contract?

X2. I would sell one day overdue.

[kiwi535 538]

if the ammount of money owing is still substantial i can see the owners greivance.However you have shown considerable good will and imho the sale should be completed esp if you have tried to ge tin touch with him.If the sale folds i would expect to get all monies back

[cliffdunedin 8]

I would have thought that If you had a contract and didn't make the final payment according to the contract, then the seller would have the right to cancel said contract?

+1

If i were you i would get my hands on the balance owing, loan/family etc then go see the seller before the contract expires with the balance before thinking of taking legal action etc...i would think if you do not fulfil the contract then the seller has the rights to resell and return monies paid by you minus any admin cost!

[BLACK DORIS 9]

Cheers, I feel I have good grounds to pursue sale as agreed when we (seller and I) talk tomorrow.

I may not have been very clear in the original post. I am the buyer. I have made all other installments apart from the final payment (a family health situation occurred that was out of my control and meant I had to leave winery tour early, leaving me with a shortfall of expected income) i.e. the need to arrange an extension in terms of final payment.

As mentioned, the final payment date was (verbally) left open due to the unknown time it would take for my final funds to clear (at time of viewing and agreeing to sale).

At the time of purchase/contract signing, it was agreed that the vehicle be left with seller until final payment had been received.

I made numerous attempts to contact seller (cell calls, txts and emails), to discuss and arrange a course of action re final payment and when/how to collect vehicle. The majority of these attempts happened weeks before the agreed final payment date, as I knew that it was due and I may need another week or two to juggle other bills etc.

I felt for the seller as the car he sold us was a project that he hadn't quite finished but had put a lot of work into (he had mentioned he had thought about giving it to his 15yr old son but not wanting to see the work he'd put in undone...).

I even offered our current e30 as a potential trade (for remaining $1500) and as a new project that he could do with his son and prob not feel as precious about.

That's when I received an email saying that he no longer wished to sell and wanted to refund the money I'd already deposited.

I've already put feelers out re the sale of our current vehicle and have a baby due in Sept so the new car was in anticipation of the new arrival.

I'd even offered the price he wanted in the fixed price offer (no haggling at all)! Even though he'd pulled sale of car off trademe, then re-listed a week later at a grand cheaper! - just to show i was serious about the vehicle.

I've practically paid for it and have made all attempts to contact and discuss situation.

Edited March 30, 2010 by BLACK DORIS

[BLACK DORIS 9]

lappy wont let me edit post to fix spelling etc-

and also while payment is the vital 'consideration' component in a contract, the sale is sealed once the agreement has been made. Wether you have the right to physically take the car yet or not i am unsure about.

cheers, good to know and what I was keen to find out about.

[BLACK DORIS 9]

I would have thought that If you had a contract and didn't make the final payment according to the contract, then the seller would have the right to cancel said contract?

Yes, I thought this too but wondered about the legalities around a private car sale and the fact that most of the price had been deposited and I just needed to arrange a week or two grace over the agreed final payment due date. Which I tried to arrange but calls, emails and txts were not answered/replied to.

Annoying thing is that this sale is private but the seller is in a family motor vehicle business! The irony.

[sp8s 1]

Its his and you cant change that. Even in a private sale a contract is a contract and if one of the persons involved does not keep that agreement then the contract is null and void.

That's when I received an email saying that he no longer wished to sell and wanted to refund the money I'd already deposited.

You are very lucky he is agreeable to give you back all the money you have given him. Take it and thank your lucky stars he is not being a tosser about it, even though you think he is by not letting you have more time to pay.

[cliffdunedin 8]

Its his and you cant change that. Even in a private sale a contract is a contract and if one of the persons involved does not keep that agreement then the contract is null and void.

You are very lucky he is agreeable to give you back all the money you have given him. Take it and thank your lucky stars he is not being a tosser about it, even though you think he is by not letting you have more time to pay.

Infact if he has agreed to sell it and the buyer has a written contract with terms and conditions and the buyer sticks to those...the contract is in the buyers favor...he is also not lucky at all!!! he got a contract written up, so by law the person who has received the money is required to return all monies minus an admin fee(usually 5%)

[BLACK DORIS 9]

Its his and you cant change that. Even in a private sale a contract is a contract and if one of the persons involved does not keep that agreement then the contract is null and void.

You are very lucky he is agreeable to give you back all the money you have given him. Take it and thank your lucky stars he is not being a tosser about it, even though you think he is by not letting you have more time to pay.

True, will see how it goes tomorrow over the phone. Just read your other post.

The contract is hand written (mine is a photo copy) and contains no terms and/or conditions apart from the deposit amount and a date for (or before) for the final payment.

As I keep pointing out, the verbal agreement (for final payment date0 was left open due to not knowing exactly when that final payment would be. A rough date (a week after final gig) was given as a guesstimate and agreed to.

He was avoiding all attempts to arrange or make a final payment. Even to the point of not producing his account number (previous installments had gone straight out of my tour pay, so I didn't have his account details at my home at the time), to make second to last installment.

I'm sure no one here can say they've never missed a bill of some sort then had said product (cell ph, power, gas, internet etc) revoked?? And as I keep pointing out, I tried numerous times before final payment ws due to discuss and would have made arrangements had the decision been that the final date was indeed the final date. In other words I would have taken out a loan etc to make final payment.

I guess what I'm asking is - is it legal to deliberately try and void a contract? I have all the email and cell ph records to show that I had made the attempts to contact and sort before the final payment date was due.

Edited March 30, 2010 by BLACK DORIS

[BLACK DORIS 9]

Any other thoughts, considerations?

Edited March 30, 2010 by BLACK DORIS

[cliffdunedin 8]

Your trouble is, if what you have explained have missed payments/final payment and if you are saying you couldn't get his account details but it had been coming out of you pay, that's an excuse!! Contact your employer/ex and get the number!

you also need to prove that he was deliberately avoiding you to void the contract...and does not say his net was not working/lost cellphone etc etc

I would suggest you contact CAB or your local Community Law Centre

[BLACK DORIS 9]

Your trouble is, if what you have explained have missed payments/final payment and if you are saying you couldn't get his account details but it had been coming out of you pay, that's an excuse!! Contact your employer/ex and get the number!

you also need to prove that he was deliberately avoiding you to void the contract...and does not say his net was not working/lost cellphone etc etc

I would suggest you contact CAB or your local Community Law Centre

Cheers, yes it does sound like an excuse. I had actually tried to get the account details from tour manager but she had left for Bali (Murphy's law) on the day I emailed requesting number.

It was then that I called, text and emailed (the seller) for the account details to make/honour the next payment, which after a week of trying I finally had a reply (apparently very biz that week -fair enough) and made payment that evening.

I always called or text to alert/update seller that another payment had been made as it was going into his personal acc. This I did out of my own desire to keep things up front and to make sure he was aware of the payments going in. He himself had requested I put a ref note with deposits as he wasn't sure (and still isn't) about what and when the payments were in and didn't check his account details that often - again, fair enough.

The family biz is a car sale yard, so the (potentially) annoying thing about this situation is that they are in the business of selling vehicles! This is why I have refrained from mentioning any personal details (of seller) as I don't believe this is how they would conduct a sale through their own business and have no intent (at this stage) of bringing their company reputation into (dis)repute.

[kiwi535 538]

Cheers, yes it does sound like an excuse. I had actually tried to get the account details from tour manager but she had left for Bali (Murphy's law) on the day I emailed requesting number.

It was then that I called, text and emailed (the seller) for the account details to make/honour the next payment, which after a week of trying I finally had a reply (apparently very biz that week -fair enough) and made payment that evening.

I always called or text to alert/update seller that another payment had been made as it was going into his personal acc. This I did out of my own desire to keep things up front and to make sure he was aware of the payments going in. He himself had requested I put a ref note with deposits as he wasn't sure (and still isn't) about what and when the payments were in and didn't check his account details that often - again, fair enough.

The family biz is a car sale yard, so the (potentially) annoying thing about this situation is that they are in the business of selling vehicles! This is why I have refrained from mentioning any personal details (of seller) as I don't believe this is how they would conduct a sale through their own business and have no intent (at this stage) of bringing their company reputation into (dis)repute.

if the final date is still open he is bound to follow through.

[BLACK DORIS 9]

I should mention that i wanted to give the final payment in person (apon collection) as a little insurance that the vehicle was in the same condition as I had viewed it at time of sale.

[BLACK DORIS 9]

*UPDATE********

HAPPY DAYS! COLLECT VEHICLE NEXT WEEK.

Will give further update when I actually have vehicle in my possession.

May buy lotto ticket while on roll...

Edited March 31, 2010 by BLACK DORIS

[tire 10]

Glad to hear that mate. Your picking it up from Auckland right? text me when you are up, we'll take photos etc