Think about the consequences

[*Glenn* 854]

In another thread I went quite off topic, what I was getting at was.. Think about the consequences of what you are doing and where its going to all end up. We have social laws, road laws etc.etc. These are all designed to keep people safe in our society. Some may think the law makers are just trying to make it hard for us.. I don't think so. Some individuals might make it hard for us in the way they might administer the law, but generaly the laws are there to protect all of us, whether it be in our homes, work place or on the roads.

As an employer within the Motor Industry serving the public I must monitor standards and work practices every minute of the day because the consequences of my actions and the actions of my employees can result in someone getting hurt or killed on our roads.

We have many members on this forum doing some absolutely great things with their cars. Some of the projects in the project threads are absoluetly brilliant. Our members in the race series are also doing really well and achieving great results and all this comes about because they have planned their projects, set goals and are working within engineering boundaries and the rules or law.

Vehicle regulations are set so that safe limits for the way a motor vehicle operates on our roads will not endanger drivers, passengers, other road users and pedestrians. Driving a motor vehicle on our roads that does not comply with these regulations will mean you will get pinged, you will get a ticket, you will get a greeny or a pinky and yes, if you do cause an accident due to driving an unsafe motor vehicle or your dangerous driving and cause injury or death, you could end up in jail where you will meet all the other law breakers.... not a place that I'd like to end up in.

Ending up in this situation will be the result of your actions... so think about it. The police officer, WOF inspector, Certifier, Judge doesn't hate you... they are just administering the law. Your lawyer will love you though.

The most common unsafe practices seen on this forum are modifications to suspension, wheels and tyres. Fitting coil overs, getting a cert and WOF and then rushing off home and sacking it doesn't mean it's still legal or safe to be on our roads. Chassis rails, sumps, steering racks etc 50mm of the road surface with 100mm of suspension travel does not constitute a safe operating limit for the vehicle to be driven on our roads. Appart from breaking things which will just hurt your pocket, it is likely you could have a serious accident due to this.

It may look "cool" and alot of the cars you do see in photos on the internet are just staged for the photos or for shows but not practical, legal or safe to be driven as daily's on our roads.

All I'm trying to get accross is... plan your projects, work within engineering boundaries, consider your legal and social obligations by driving a safe vehicle and PLAY SAFE

Myself and others on here will always comment on unsafe or illegal mods. I personaly think it's our duty to do so.

[hybrid 1040]

I think its just a knowledge thing around other options to acheive the same result. Unfortunatly the wrong ways are often socailised around over time and it becomes the norm. People dont know any different.

I will take an example of a lowered e30 with a m50/s50 e34 sump. My car is lowered, however I have done it so with enlarging the wheels to get the same result. The low look without the ride height being compromised. I will still put a sump gaurd on to be safe.

Another way is lower the flares down and run bigger wheels .. a meet in the middle approach. this way you also retain proper suspension geometry and shock piston travel which = proper handling.

lots of ways to skin this cat .. just how you look at it.

[deeveus 81]

This is going to hurt alot of you guys here LOL but I've never owned a lowered car in my life, never been interested in it, a personal preference. I also worked at Dunedin's biggest Warrant centre and the dangers I've seen like cut springs that aren't even captive i.e when on the jack the springs could be dislocated by hand, was mostly Honda Integra's with removed airboxes for the deep induction noise... Nuff said. I ROFL'd when I seen the post RE: no check WOF's... what a legend.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Clinton

[sp8s 1]

Totally agree.

Was going to write a short novel on my thoughts but it would be ignored by the people it would be aimed at so I wont bother.

For our sake and other road users "Do it once do it right"

Think about what you Parents/Wife/Children will do if you mods go wrong.

[cliffdunedin 8]

I fully agree, though i have technically owned and driven a few illegal cars after the exhaust db level came in a few years ago!!! I had a N/A Subaru with full race exhaust and a Series 1 RX7 with twin pipes that seemed pointless to ruin sports exhausts cutting and welding extra mufflers on so i didn't and drove and drove and drove them, being street legal in those cases def did not mean unsafe.

Edited July 2, 2010 by cliffdunedin

[*Glenn* 854]

Illegal exhaust's aren't really an issue...you just get a ticket or a greeny. No one gets hurt with a noisey exhaust.

Your pocket might though. I'm more concerned about people hurting people through doing stupid things that can cause injury & death and the consequences when this happens.

Edited July 2, 2010 by *Glenn*

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2122]

.02c When modifying a car, the safety of the vehicle afterwards should ALWAYS be the first priority, and the look or reason for doing the mod coming second. I dont care if your own life is wasted, or your saftey in general is compromised by your modifications, but you have to think about who you share the road with. goes for vehicle lighting too, the old HID debate for one, and for two the painted tails (which you all will be happy to know i now have legal ones)

When my car is drivable again, we all know ill probably take it round the block for sure, but im not stupid enough to drive it again till its certed and legit. There is always a possibility i didnt do an engine mount up properly etc and i could loose control very easily and kill someone.

My car is lowered, however I have done it so with enlarging the wheels to get the same result. The low look without the ride height being compromised. I will still put a sump gaurd on to be safe.

+1 thats how i intend to do it as well. Dropped 2.1" on 55 tyres + gaurd work if needed

Edited July 2, 2010 by _Ethrty-Andy_

[Dyl 4]

Well put Glenn. It only takes that one corner in the wet or the need for evasive action on cut springs to make it all seem regrettable. Sadly, some people learn the hard way and some think it'll never happen to them...... until it does. Safe cars FTW! It's not that expensive to do things right I've been there

[dirtydoogle 383]

Very straight to the point Glenn and I agree on all counts. I've owned one lowered car out of 16 or 17 in total. Don't see the point of ruining the ride/handling compromise and depleteing the scrub radius etc. It does look cool in my opinion to have a low ish car, but, I still prefer the standard way of things. I specificaly hate cut springs, terrible things and anyone with them should be burnt. They are they reason the Police have to enforce cruising laws and anti race laws. Bunch of narrow minded twits the lot of them.

[pureboiracer 0]

really? i thought chasis rails in the ground helped you stop???

but seriously, i agree with glen. and although my cars not technically certed yet i do it so its safeand it shouldnt have a problem getting certed when i cough up the c.ash. i am a qualled mechanic, although i am at uni now. so when i do stuff to my own car i know whats ok and whats not.

[leithcm 0]

In another thread I went quite off topic, what I was getting at was.. Think about the consequences of what you are doing and where its going to all end up. We have social laws, road laws etc.etc. These are all designed to keep people safe in our society. Some may think the law makers are just trying to make it hard for us.. I don't think so. Some individuals might make it hard for us in the way they might administer the law, but generaly the laws are there to protect all of us, whether it be in our homes, work place or on the roads.

As an employer within the Motor Industry serving the public I must monitor standards and work practices every minute of the day because the consequences of my actions and the actions of my employees can result in someone getting hurt or killed on our roads.

We have many members on this forum doing some absolutely great things with their cars. Some of the projects in the project threads are absoluetly brilliant. Our members in the race series are also doing really well and achieving great results and all this comes about because they have planned their projects, set goals and are working within engineering boundaries and the rules or law.

Vehicle regulations are set so that safe limits for the way a motor vehicle operates on our roads will not endanger drivers, passengers, other road users and pedestrians. Driving a motor vehicle on our roads that does not comply with these regulations will mean you will get pinged, you will get a ticket, you will get a greeny or a pinky and yes, if you do cause an accident due to driving an unsafe motor vehicle or your dangerous driving and cause injury or death, you could end up in jail where you will meet all the other law breakers.... not a place that I'd like to end up in.

Ending up in this situation will be the result of your actions... so think about it. The police officer, WOF inspector, Certifier, Judge doesn't hate you... they are just administering the law. Your lawyer will love you though.

The most common unsafe practices seen on this forum are modifications to suspension, wheels and tyres. Fitting coil overs, getting a cert and WOF and then rushing off home and sacking it doesn't mean it's still legal or safe to be on our roads. Chassis rails, sumps, steering racks etc 50mm of the road surface with 100mm of suspension travel does not constitute a safe operating limit for the vehicle to be driven on our roads. Appart from breaking things which will just hurt your pocket, it is likely you could have a serious accident due to this.

It may look "cool" and alot of the cars you do see in photos on the internet are just staged for the photos or for shows but not practical, legal or safe to be driven as daily's on our roads.

All I'm trying to get accross is... plan your projects, work within engineering boundaries, consider your legal and social obligations by driving a safe vehicle and PLAY SAFE

Myself and others on here will always comment on unsafe or illegal mods. I personaly think it's our duty to do so.

Well said, Glenn!! I am pleased that the "more life experienced" members of this forum are prepared to take a stand against what are best described as down right dangerous modifications to (especially) suspensions, wheels, and tyres. Leadership from this quarter is required, and you, Glenn, being an active part of this forum whose advice and wisdom is well respected, are the perfect leader in this regard. Well done!

[bravo 34]

Adding my support to Glenn's comments. Good write-up.

[kingkarl 136]

On a side note, the piece of crap Chinese tyres on my car should be illegal. They are dangerously slippery. If I could afford anything better I would change them.

Just pointing out that dangerous illegally (or otherwise) modified cars can be no more dangerous in some circumstances than legal completely stock cars with crap tyres, or just poorly built older cars in general.

I don't know sweet FA about suspension safety or whatever, but I assume that (for example) an illegally (dangerously) low e36 with it's ABS, traction control and other safety features would still be safer and have more grip than say a Toyota Starlet from the same era.

[*Glenn* 854]

The point is Karl... you are not contributing to the accident factor by driving your older "legal" car, only your actions will determine the court action taken against you. However, the person driving a vehicle who deliberately altered his car illegaly, if it contributed or caused the accident will be punished for his actions quite differently in court with the contribution factor of the illegal car. Careless driving causing death is quite different from driving dangerously causing death= manslaughter. It has alot to do with the drivers attitude towards his responsibilty on our roads. sh*t happens out there....don't contribute to it.

[antil33t 90]

Would ABS/TCL work correctly with say... Cut springs?

I would have thaught it would make the problem WORSE if it's not setup correctly with such systems.

[Shady 0]

Agreed (1st post).

But some rules/laws are made to be broken, only cos they are so rediculous.

eg- Tints (the % allowed - 35% is rubbish, 20% is fine!)

And just cause a car isn't Cert'd doesnt mean its not legal or safe - the Cert is just to prove it.

[antil33t 90]

Then how do you prove it's safe without a cert?

[bellicose 9]

But some rules/laws are made to be broken, only cos they are so rediculous.

eg- Tints (the % allowed - 35% is rubbish, 20% is fine!)

And just cause a car isn't Cert'd doesnt mean its not legal or safe - the Cert is just to prove it.

You really do make some idiotic statements at times.

I'm with Glenn on this issue.

[*Glenn* 854]

And just cause a car isn't Cert'd doesnt mean its not legal or safe - the Cert is just to prove it.

Absolute CRAP

[Silver Fox 43]

And just cause a car isn't Cert'd doesnt mean its not legal or safe - the Cert is just to prove it.

You're only half right with this one Malcolm, if it ain't certed it ain't legal. But it may be safe, but how would you know?

[e38king 1]

But some rules/laws are made to be broken, only cos they are so rediculous.

eg- Tints (the % allowed - 35% is rubbish, 20% is fine!)

And just cause a car isn't Cert'd doesnt mean its not legal or safe - the Cert is just to prove it.

Muppet Muppet Muppet!!

Some needs to be hit with the ban stick.

A cert is a very comprehensive WOF. With your logic we don't need warrants either

You really do make some idiotic statements at times.

Fixed

[soarer260@hotmail.com 0]

What an excellent post Glenn, Could not agree with you more.

So true.

The image factor too often overrides the functionality of the cars components.

I think the opposite, function over form!!

[Shady 0]

really? i thought chasis rails in the ground helped you stop???

but seriously, i agree with glen. and although my cars not technically certed yet i do it so its safeand it shouldnt have a problem getting certed when i cough up the c.ash. i am a qualled mechanic, although i am at uni now. so when i do stuff to my own car i know whats ok and whats not.

WOW everyone hammers me, yet not Oli? Just cos hes a mechanic dont mean his car is 100% ! I know you cant Cert your own car, so whats to say he aint cutting corners?

Seriously. Just having my say - I dont do illegal mods (my car is 100% - passed 3 wofs so far).

If anyones got a problem PM me personally and we can sort it out. Dont need to take a thread off topic by talking s--t about me.

e38king:- I personally asked, in one of my threads, to have my account deleted cos of all the s--t being sent at me in threads but they wont. Ohwell...

[hotwire 352]

Agreed (1st post).

But some rules/laws are made to be broken, only cos they are so rediculous.

eg- Tints (the % allowed - 35% is rubbish, 20% is fine!)

And just cause a car isn't Cert'd doesnt mean its not legal or safe - the Cert is just to prove it.

Then how do you prove it's safe without a cert?

You're only half right with this one Malcolm, if it ain't certed it ain't legal. But it may be safe, but how would you know?

Two responses to the top statement - so true

Why the hell do we have any laws/ rules if not to create a benchmark?

[pureboiracer 0]

Hey shady dont drag me into this..

i know im not cutting corners because i have seen what cutting corners does, i know how cars handle when certain things are done to them and what can cause cars to do what.

as i am a fully qualled mechanic you would hope like buggery i knew what the hell i was doing. The problem lies with the people who do stuff to their car that dont have the knowledge to know exactly what it does to the car. or the people who just dont care. i am fully with glenn on this topic.

but hey your more than welcome to come and inspect my car if you think you know better...

and to be fair im not going to slam you but i do think that comment about the tints may not have been the best one to write.