Speed tolerance this weekend...

[cliffdunedin 8]

The only things that have changed are the population, the number of old dodgy rubber on cars, the education and lack of manditory advance driver training.

Speed doesnt kill, people do and bad descions. removing the fluffy margin of error wont fix the problem. You watch what happens road toll figures when the tollerance is adjusted... a big fat nothing.

Yeah, I agree.

I think you fail to grasp just how many criminals are actually caught because of driving offenses.

nordschleife does have a good point though, i'd be interested in those stats?

[nordschleife 0]

I think you fail to grasp just how many criminals are actually caught because of driving offenses.

Far less than actually commit crimes...

[zenetti 0]

Did anyone also notice that the majority of the deaths at the weekend were on 'b' roads rather than the main highways that the police were targeting?

[Wom 0]

well if those 'b' roads are as rubbish as the roads around here (which I liken to an old worn out patch-work quilt) then I'm not surprised

Edited October 27, 2010 by Wom

[R90S 2]

"For the man who's only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail which must be pounded relentlessly".

I do not envy the task of Police, ambulance drivers and fire crews attending fatal car accidents, and I'm grateful that they perform this thankless task day after day. Yet from where I sit, there are several fundamental flaws with the Police approach to the causes of accidents, casualties and fatalities, along with road policing in general. One of the biggest flaws IMHO is the apparent inability to look critically and honestly at their own research and make changes where necessary. I'll come back to that later, but first, an extended rant . . . .

The accident statistics have been steadily declining for some years, much of it due to advances in vehicle design and safety equipment, along with better suspension, tyres and brakes. Further credit is due to better main roads with crash barriers on many highway stretches now (and some of you may recall the number of fatalities on Auckland motorways before the centre barriers), and better positioned street furniture such as power poles and road signs.

Driver licences are too easy to obtain, and lack restrictions on the type of vehicles learner drivers are able to operate, unlike motorcycles. All too often, weekend fatalities involve young people driving a WRX or Evo on a learner or restricted licence. Quite simply, this type of high performance vehicle shouldn't be available to inexperienced drivers - 'cos they can bite. Hard.

Drink-driving has become less socially acceptable, yet too many still persist in operating a vehicle when p!ssed or high on recreational chemicals. No doubt the practice persists because of bad judgement for some, while for others there's a belief that they can "get away with it". Statistically, the outcomes are not good, especially when combined with other variables.

Anyhooo, my main point is that in the various Police and NZTA reports published in recent years, speed on its own is not a big deal surprisingly, when it comes to accidents. Between 2006-2008, speed on it's own was the cause of only 16% of all fatal crashes nationally. For car and van drivers, the figure was 23% nationally for the same period. I haven't plucked these figures out of thin air BTW, they are taken directly from the Ministry of Transport website and can be found in a section dealing with speeding. The particular report i took the stats from is called the Crash Factsheet 2009, but there are many other reports online as well. (Out of interest, the MOT define speeding as "driving too fast for the conditions".) The on-going repetition of the mantra "speed kills" by the police is an affront to anyone with an intellect. It's just not true.

The other change in recent years is the Police culture itself, particularly as it involves speed. Police vehicles used specifically for Traffic duties are monitored these days, so when a radar locks onto an alleged speeding motorist, that information is stored. If the officer decides to let the driver off, he must then account for his failure to issue an offence notice. In days of old, an officer was able to use his discretion as to how the motorist was driving, backed by a general impression of driver attitude, vehicle type and condition etc. Not any more . . . well, not unless you're Graham Henry. It's become a numbers game, with quotas to fill and revenue to generate. Personally I'd rather be overtaken by a driver doing 140kph who clearly knows what he's doing, than follow someone doing 70-80kph who doesn't. Also, the arbitary speed limit takes no account of vehicle type, loads, or any other relevant factors. Effectively the speed limit implies that a Morris Minor carrying four adults is completely safe at 100kph on it's crossply tyres, unassisted drum brakes and lack of a crumple zone while a late model car with radial tyres, decent disc brakes with ABS, crumple zones, airbags etc is somehow unsafe at 111kph. Yeah, right . . .

All of which leads me back to where i started. The Police (or should i say SOME of the Police) know that enforcing speed limits and lowering the tolerance won't bring the road toll down. Nationally they are placing far too much focus on speed and it's alleged danger and not enough focus on the real reasons for the road toll. They do it because it's visible, and so that they can be seen to be doing something even if it's not working. Many who have already contributed to this thread have identified problems with poor driver vetting under the licencing process. Other areas of concern have always been with us too, such as poorly maintained vehicles. Much of the carnage on our roads is caused by unlicenced drivers, unregistered vehicles, no WOF's, and no certification for mods. IMHO, the Police spend far too little effort monitoring these issues - I do over 50,000km per year on a variety of urban, suburban, motorway and country roads, and I've only been though a few checkpoints in the last few years. If they were to implement some of these changes, the Police would miss out on some of their current revenue and they would need to employ their resources in different ways, but if they are as serious about the road toll as they claim to be, they need to consider changing their methods 'cos what they're doing now isn't working.

As a thought, one way of making it difficult to operate a vehicle which is either unregistered or doesn't have a current WOF would be to require service stations to only supply fuel to legal vehicles. I've had CNG and LPG powered vehicles in the past, and i couldn't buy gas unless the attendent personally viewed the inspection sticker on the windscreen. A licence check could also be part of the process. Sure, there would be ways around it, but it would be a start. No doubt the fuel companies would squeal like stuck pigs, but considering about 10% of our national vehicle fleet is currently unwarranted or unregistered, it might help keep some of them off the road . . .

Anyhoo, that's some of my thoughts. Flame away . . .

[Michael. 2313]

The only things that have changed are the population, the number of old dodgy rubber on cars, the education and lack of manditory advance driver training.

Speed doesnt kill, people do and bad descions. removing the fluffy margin of error wont fix the problem. You watch what happens road toll figures when the tollerance is adjusted... a big fat nothing.

Its all clever (not so) marketing to lobby law change for more tax collection.

I agree completely.

[westy 614]

"For the man who's only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail which must be pounded relentlessly".

I do not envy the task of Police........

Cost/benefit ratios.

There is no way the LTSA (bureaucrats) are going to change policy as long as these are the driving force behind said policy.

Targeting Speeders is easy and generates income.

Training better drivers is hard and costly.

Simple math in their eyes.

[M5V8 337]

I agree with R90S completely, I haven't heard a rant so accurate in awhile.

Well said sir.

IMO:

1). Improve driver licencing test including advanced driver training

2). Compulsory 3rd party insurance

3). Limit powerful cars to licence & age (ie - no learners or under 20's in V8 or turbo cars)

4). Mandate spending a percentage of the petrol exercise tax on improving ROADS

those 4 things I firmly believe will cut the road toll more than any current police campaigns.

Speed / booze campaigns have helped, I agree, however we need to focus a new direction to get the toll lower and improve the general standard of driving on our roads.

Try driving in Germany, they all drive ALOT faster than us, yet in my experience are excellent drivers due to the quality of the roads, cars, and driver education. They take their driving seriously over there.

Here I constantly expect all other drivers to do the most idiotic thing possible, this has saved me from several accidents.

Driver training isn't costly when you add in the social cost of accidents not to mention ACC claims which we all pay for, besides the cost of such courses shouldn't be paid for by the taxpayer it should be part of the cost of getting your licence.

Motoring is cheap in NZ, cars, licencing, hell you don't even need insurance. This combination is for all to see on our roads and road toll.

But nothing I have listed will swell the government coffers....so will likely be ignored.

[Lucan 196]

I agree with what's being said here, basically, we need to imitate Aussie rules when its comes to licensing...

M5V8: If the autobahn is what your referring to, NZ doesn't have the $ to build something like that, and their driving would probably appear to be better on that particular stretch of road that's built for high speed, but would it be better off it? I can't say

[M5V8 337]

I agree with what's being said here, basically, we need to imitate Aussie rules when its comes to licensing...

M5V8: If the autobahn is what your referring to, NZ doesn't have the $ to build something like that, and their driving would probably appear to be better on that particular stretch of road that's built for high speed, but would it be better off it? I can't say

Ahh the autobahn, the only good thing Hitler ever did.

Narr bro, it was just a pleasure to drive anywhere there, you could trust the other drivers on the road. I felt like I was the one driving badly trying to navigate around the country on the wrong side of the road.

Actually, I probably was!

[Tristan 338]

Driver licences are too easy to obtain, and lack restrictions on the type of vehicles learner drivers are able to operate, unlike motorcycles. All too often, weekend fatalities involve young people driving a WRX or Evo on a learner or restricted licence. Quite simply, this type of high performance vehicle shouldn't be available to inexperienced drivers - 'cos they can bite. Hard.

Cannot agree enough with this, even being myself 18. 2 guys I know driving WRXs. Both younger than myself.

One of them blew his first engine at 259kph. Rich parents replaced it with another WRX within a week.

Other one brags of reaching 250+kph. f**king idiots to be honest.

Whilst it does come to stupidity, I don't blame them. If I had the power there I'd probably be using it too. I could've gotten a WRX or Evo but chose the 530i. It takes a lot of restraint, responsibility and maturity to drive a car with that much power. Something I (nor them for that matter) have. Then again, I'm not the one driving the WRX.

But we're the ones sharing the roads with them. Should be engine/aspiration restrictions corresponding to driving experience. Not just license type, but also years in possession of that license, courses completed etc etc.

/rant

[Wom 0]

one big thing that needs to be done is that all cop cars need to have licence plate recognition cameras and there needs to be a lot more cops

then they can easily identify whether the driver is breaching licence restrictions (sure, the owner may not be driving, but it's always worthwhile stopping them to have a quick check); whether the car has wof and rego (and ruc if diesel); and if there is a power / engine limit and compulsory insurance, then they'll be able to pick those up easily too

I know I'd get rather sick of driving if I kept getting pulled over every 10 minutes

the courts also need to come down harder on repeat offenders

none of this racking up $10,000 plus on fines and then having it all wiped because there's no way they can pay it

I reckon the threat of jail time would put at least some people off

and if there are even 10 less idiots on the road, then that improves my chances of making it home safely

[E36ShoppingTrolley 7]

As a thought, one way of making it difficult to operate a vehicle which is either unregistered or doesn't have a current WOF would be to require service stations to only supply fuel to legal vehicles. I've had CNG and LPG powered vehicles in the past, and i couldn't buy gas unless the attendent personally viewed the inspection sticker on the windscreen. A licence check could also be part of the process. Sure, there would be ways around it, but it would be a start. No doubt the fuel companies would squeal like stuck pigs, but considering about 10% of our national vehicle fleet is currently unwarranted or unregistered, it might help keep some of them off the road . . .

good idea!

[cliffdunedin 8]

good idea!

Only trouble with that idea is Jerry cans

[simke 0]

Slightly OT, but since someone mentioned driving in Europe, why don't we employ the same traffic light system here? E.g. yellow goes on before green to let you know you need to start moving soon. It would be a cheap method of getting traffic to move quicker off lights and as a result may ease congestion a little bit.

[Tristan 338]

Slightly OT, but since someone mentioned driving in Europe, why don't we employ the same traffic light system here? E.g. yellow goes on before green to let you know you need to start moving soon. It would be a cheap method of getting traffic to move quicker off lights and as a result may ease congestion a little bit.

I may misread but what if someone jumps on orange and another car comes through not stopping for his orange (to red)

[simke 0]

I guess that could happen, but again comes to driver education to slow down when yellow light comes on instead of speeding up.

[318Touring 40]

Try driving in Germany, they all drive ALOT faster than us, yet in my experience are excellent drivers due to the quality of the roads, cars, and driver education. They take their driving seriously over there.

And interstates in the States.

Drivers are corteous towards each other, if you don't want to drive as fast as the driver behind you, then move to the right and let the other driver pass. Doesn't matter if he/she's doing 10, 20 or 50 mph above the posted speed limit. Drivers over there automatically let anyone faster than they are to pass them, all the time, any time of the day!

There isn't any of this righteous behaviour Kiwi drivers are exhibiting driving on the motorway 'Oh I'm doing 100 so I won't let anyone faster than me pass ços they'll be breaking the law'. Get a f%$#îng life!!

Edited October 28, 2010 by 318Touring

[M5V8 337]

I may misread but what if someone jumps on orange and another car comes through not stopping for his orange (to red)

Amazingly to us....they don't run reds like we do, nor do they jump the orange.

Probably has something to do with the massive lawsuits for traffic accidents.

If we had that system here I could see it starting drag races.

[Jamez 2147483647]

If we had that system here I could see it starting drag races.

+1